Welcome to GenX Adulting and today we have Julie Fahey with us who is the co-host of the You Keep Me Sane podcast. Welcome Julie. Hi, good to be here. We're so happy to have you and I should mention you are our first non-US guest. You are in Australia. I know I feel so honoured actually, I didn't realise that I was the first. So yeah, I'm in Melbourne, miles away. excited. We're so excited. We actually have quite a few listeners and followers from Australia. It's really cool. So we're we were extra excited to have you on and kick off getting a little bit outside of America with this with you. So extra welcome. you. Actually, I went on to your, I was looking at your InstaPay, this is months and months ago, and a lot of people I know follow you. It was strange. I'm like, wow. So this obviously resonates a lot in Australia. Yeah. cool to hear. OK, so our first question is always what year were you born? 1976. So you are Gen X. I'm Gen X, yeah, absolutely. So I was born in a little town called Woodford, which is in Australia, in Queensland. So I don't know how much of the Australian geography you know, but it's sort of southeast Queensland, which is the state on the east of Australia. northeast of Australia in the countryside. So probably an hour from Brisbane. Don't know if you know Brisbane, but... Now, and I'm gonna I'm gonna represent the listeners that aren't familiar with Australia um and ask probably to some people, especially Australians will sound like stupid questions. But for our listeners who aren't aware, can you explain is Australia? Do you guys have states like we have states? Are you divided up like that? Are they provinces? How is it? Yeah, states exactly like America in that way. so every state has the capital city. So Brisbane's the capital of Queensland. And so I lived sort of an hour and a bit from Queensland, which doesn't feel so remote now, but growing up, it was much more remote. mean, now it's kind of commuter belt-ish to Brisbane, but it was pretty rural growing up. Okay, how many states are in Australia? Okay, I've actually got a count, not like the states, it's not like 52, we got like, um one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and so seven states, but then Canberra is a territory, Australian capital territory. So that's our capital is Canberra and it's part of a territory, which is sort of Australian capital territory. So it's a state, but it's not called a state as such. Kind of like Washington DC for us, right? It's our capital, but it covers like a few states. Like for us it covers... DC kind of sits in between a few states. It sits like Virginia, Maryland and Delaware, I believe is what DC touches. Okay. Yeah. Well, this is like its own. So you have Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, sort of part of New South Wales is cut out and it's its territory. So it's not part of New South Wales, the state. So it's its own. Like, but the city's Canberra and it's Australian capital territory. I don't, I've got no idea why it's like that, but it's, is like a state, but it's just not called a state as such. It's, its own area. So. makes sense. And then where you grew up, were you near the coast at all? So about 50 minutes drive from the Sunshine Coast. don't know if you know, so Brisbane is, has like, like Sunshine Coast to the north, Gold Coast to the south. You might've heard more of the Gold Coast. There's a lot of filming stuff happening around there. Yeah. So that's south of Brisbane and I was an hour north of Brisbane, which is the Sunshine Coast. Equally beautiful, equally, you know, coastal environment, but I was inland. So I grew up an hour inland of that, that coast in the mountains. is for Americans, though, an hour inland from the coast is close to the coast. You know, like to us who live in that would live an hour away from the beach, we call it the beach. That would be like you live by you still live by the beach or by the coast, you know, or from Jersey, they call it the shore. But because it's so huge here, you know what I mean? That if you even get within probably an hour and a half, it's like, you live by the beach. So, yeah. So for us, 50 minutes is like yeah, we're- If you were in the dead center of Australia, how far would it be to go to the coast or the beach? Oh, days. You would be driving for days. That's what I always say because I lived in Europe for so long, know, and you can, was in Germany, you can drive across Europe. You can drive for say a day or maybe you drive for, I don't know, two days, half day. You can go through so many countries. Australia, you can drive for a week or more and you still be in Australia. It's a bit like the States. So if you were in the center of the States, if you were going to go to the coast, it would be a long haul, right? So similar. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay, so remind me of the name of your town again where you were born. It's called Woodford. Yeah. were your parents from there, your grandparents, like how many generations back does it go where your family settled there? ah Well, that particular town, my parents moved there when I was eight. I was born in Brisbane. So Brisbane is where pretty much all of my family are from and my, you know, the generation's back. Yeah. Or maybe my mom's parents were sort of born. they were from up north, I don't actually know where they were born but I know they were up north Queensland. It's all Queensland and pretty much Brisbane but we moved out to the countryside. countryside it might sound coastal but we didn't look at it as coastal. Yeah when I was eight so... So from the time you were born to eight, you were in Brisbane. Was that like a city? Yeah, yeah, so that was City. like urban or like suburban. Suburban pretty much we didn't live right. I mean, I don't know Brisbane at the time It's growing a lot wasn't massive city not not by you know New York standards or London or anything or even Melbourne, but now it's getting bigger But at the time yes, so we were I don't know you might drive 20 minutes into the center of town But where we were was pretty suburban it was yeah, and it was still growing I mean when dad my dad's a builder when he built our house It was on an estate so it's just land and they bought a and you know houses were popping up and all that sort of thing. Do you know how your parents met? They met, well, so they met ballroom dancing, but they, I know it's so cool. And they became, they were ballroom dancing partners. They got matched together, which is so cool, but they knew each other, think roundabout because they lived in the same area. So I don't know all the stories, but I think mom might've been in the same class as one of dad's sisters or, you know, I think there was like, they knew of each other before that, but then they were paired up when they were. how old they were for the ballroom dancing when they met? How old they were? I don't, but I think they got married at 19. So yeah, yeah, I think they got married. It's very young. Yeah. Do know what? It is young and I always think it's young, but when I look at my family, so my brother, I don't know exactly now he got married. I think he was 21 or maybe 22. Yeah, he got married at 21. See, because in the country town where I go, and I don't know if it's like this in the States in sort of rural communities, I guess, I don't know, but they still do kind of get married young. Like my brother's son. Now, how old would he be? He was born in 2002, 24. He's just getting married this year. And then his brother who's two years older already has a child and is engaged, you know, so. Even though I guess my parents, yeah it's considered young but still in those communities I think a lot of people still get married. I mean I didn't get married until I was 35 but you know it's... that in more rural areas here. small towns. Kids get married. Yeah, or they get married. We got married young at 23, but that was very unusual. Like our friends, I think, thought we were straight out of college. That was right. That was not normal. And that was back in 94. But yeah, in America, in small towns, typically, I think people still if you go back to your parents' generation, there's probably been an increase in when... age when people get married in the US. I'm sure Australia might be the same, but it wouldn't be uncommon for people our parents age to get married at a younger age. Right. yeah. I think that's probably a global thing too, right? that generation would have got married pretty long. I mean, I think... when they got married at 19, was your dad already a builder? Yeah, so I think, yeah, he didn't finish school at like grade 12. I don't know what grade he went to, say grade 10 or something, and then did a trade. And so he was a builder. Yeah. Yeah. And my mom was a dental nurse, but she gave up as soon as she the kids. And yeah, very typical. are you the oldest? Second eldest, I have a brother who was born in 75 and then me in 76 and then I have a sister 78 and another sister, 1980. So it's four of us. so all Gen X, all four of you, even your youngest. Yeah, she just squeezed in. So after your parents, so your parents are in, am I saying it right, Brisbane? Am I saying that correctly? oh is, you're howling it quickly, but a lot of Americans, because I was in LA for a long time, say Brisbane. I've heard that a lot, yeah. Yeah. So and I'm from Oregon and a lot of people say Oregon, but it's Oregon. That's the same. Oregon. Yeah. Yeah. OK. So Brisbane. So um your parents have your brother. Your mom becomes a stay at home mom. Your dad's a builder. um It sounds like they had at least the first three of you in Brisbane. All four. Just the all of you. And then they. Yeah. Yeah. So I was eight when we moved. So my littlest sister would have been four. When we moved. You know what? It's interesting because... I see them as a very conventional family, but at that time moving out to the country like that must have been massive. I've actually said this to them since and they're like, yeah, people did think we were a bit, you know, because it's an hour away. We moved to a 40 acre property and dad had to, we lived in a shed for two years while dad built our house and my grandparents lived in a caravan beside while he built their house. I think they just wanted, they were just those kind of people, I guess. They just wanted to change. They wanted to live in the country. mean, dad. grown up on property, which was in Brisbane still, but it's where the airport now is in Brisbane. So it was on all like, it's a place called Crib Island, which is like this own, its own island where his family, the Jacksons, he was one of 10. And they grew up there and they had horses and you know, and so I think for him, he always wanted that space. And so, yeah, it was enough. And then my parents, my mom's parents moved out too. So it sounds like he did literally what is my dream is like a family compound. He got a bunch of property. He built the house for you guys, the family house, the house for his his parents and the house for your mom's parents. OK, so you OK, so you had your grandparents on property and that sounds absolutely amazing. Yeah, looking back, it's, mean, I loved it actually growing up. I did love it, but at the same time. I look back now and we go there now and everyone's like, this is heaven because friends come up there and it's still, it's still a 40 acre property surrounded by forestry, you know, hasn't really been built up where they are, except for in the town, which is 10 minutes drive to the closest town. Um, which at the time we couldn't really do our grocery shopping there. had to drive 30 minutes to do the grocery shopping. So it is, you know, it was beautiful and it was idyllic, but for some reason, I guess I was the black sheep. I was always like, there's more, you know, what what and I so whilst I loved it and whilst I was younger than the sort of 15 where you start to go a bit crazy I you know we just we were doing crazy stuff we just lived on this property all on the weekends you know as kids we're climbing trees we're exploring we were on swollen rivers it would flood so we'd get locked in flooded in for days the rivers were massive we took the fins off our boogie boards you know boards like yeah fins off the boogie boards down these raging rivers where there was barbed wire tumbler you know i mean we could have who knows what could have happened but so all of that loved it we even had a bush basher car which little ute thing that dad had bought which we just drove i think it got you know bingled up a million times i don't even know what happened to it but you know driving that around it was just it was awesome we had that a lot of freedom Was that you and your siblings or would you guys have friends come and you guys would all just take over the property? It was the siblings, we had cousins, because I have about 40 something first cousins, which is a lot, because my dad's one of 10 and my mom's one of four. So between all of... those. So we had cousins would come at the weekend and then yeah, yeah, we'd have friends come and stay for the weekend because it wasn't the kind where they can just duck in for an hour and go, you know, they were there, they were dropped out by their parents and let's stay the night. So, you know, but the crazy stuff was more with my siblings and my cousins probably. or something? Like if you have that many people out? Where does everybody sleep? Yeah, well, I don't know to be honest. As a kid you don't remember these things but I remember you just... Everything just happens when you're a kid. Exactly. Now that I'm a mom I can't... Exactly. Exactly. a lot of people, but she figured it out, you know, so the towels, the sheets, the pillows, now you know, but you as a kid, you wouldn't have you wouldn't have thought about that. So when you were in Brisbane, though, because that was I mean, that's like kindergarten through what? second or third grade, were you feral in Brisbane? Did you have that freedom in the urban or suburban area or did they not really kind of let you guys go until you had moved out into the country? Yeah, I don't know. saw, yeah, I was up to third grade. I mean, my dad was very much about you do things for yourself, which I loved because he was very practical. So we were very independent in that way. Like he always made sure we could and mom as well even. So I remember feeling like I could do it. You know, I've been being in the garage and making up, you know, potions and building stuff, wet sand, like, you know, we were kind of free like that. But I don't think in terms of going out around the neighbourhood, I mean, my auntie lived just down the road, so we'd go down there. And I remember starting to walk to school on our own, but I don't remember so much that kind of spatial freedom of being outside the house. We had a big backyard and, you know, we went cycling a bit, but I, yeah, I know. don't remember that aspect of it. Not like, yeah, but I mean, even though here in America, like for us Gen Xers, there are many of us that were six and seven on bikes and we'd leave and not come back till the streetlights came on. You know, we were like young little kids and our parents had no clue where we were. And we were in rural, we were in urban, we were in suburban. And it was literally like how you would see in the movies just gone, you know, like E.T. or whatever, they'd be gone on their bike. It was like that. And a lot of times if you were 5, 6, 7, maybe you were with your older sibling who was 9. But it was like a pack. You know what I mean? So was curious, like in Australia, was it like that in the suburbs as well? Or was it a little more, were you guys a little more protected? I think it was like that because I talk to a lot of friends now who are also Gen X's here because we talk about it in relation to our kids and a lot of them are like, gosh, at this age I was, you know, cycling here and doing this. But and so I think there wasn't that worry about whether we went out and did whatever. And I think it's just more circumstantial. Like my cousin was up the road and my mum was always around. I remember cycling our bikes around the house. We had quite a big plot. And so we would like be cycling all around like I don't remember they're going really up the street because there wasn't a shop nearby really from where we lived. I remember going to school and back on my own but also my mum I guess because she had the four of us so she'd walk to school anyway because I had the two younger siblings so we'd go on ahead but so I don't know why but yeah ours wasn't really as much like that although there was no brakes on it possibly being like that but in general in Australia I think it was like America absolutely. because everyone talks about the same thing. Yeah, I was just cycling to school at six and mom and dad had no idea where I was or yeah, same thing. you guys have the experience of missing children on milk cartons in Australia or was that just an American thing? I don't remember that, but I remember, was it milk cartons? I remember seeing it's missing kids things, but not like, I think I remember from the movies more, if I'm honest, which is probably American. uh So you weren't eating your cereal in the morning and reading about a missing kid like that was normal. And then just going no one talking to you about it. And you just go to school and that's just how it is. I don't remen- I do not remember that. But I remember the concept of that, so I don't know whether that's from movies or whether it's from Australia, but it wasn't in my... world. your dining room table. not scarred like the rest of us. I don't think I'm scarred by that one. Unless my parents were like hiding stuff from us, possibly. Now, I mean, your parents sound like, as I always say, uh Gen Xers, as we were all feral, but there's also the Gen Xers who did have very uh healthy home lives and parents who were very supportive, very involved. um were aware of what was going on. You Brian came from that as well. um So there and no divorce. Like I'm I come from divorce. I come from upheaval. He comes from our traditional sounds like you also come from more traditional. So as much as you had the freedom to go whitewater rafting with your boogie board down a giant, you know, river that might have a wire. Yeah. It was still in this idyllic 40 acre heaven that your parents created for you. So you had it. Honestly, the best of both worlds is what it sounds like. Yeah, I think I was very lucky in that sense because mum was around but equally we had that free absolute free range when we were younger. And especially I remember more because I guess at eight was when we moved. So my main memories of how it was on the property and that was very much free range. So we were able to do whatever, you know, we and mom, I look back now as a parent, you know, cause I guess, I don't know if it's being an older parent or whatever it is, but you know, the mess and the this and that, like you kind of let your kids do it, but it's always a pain in the neck. it's always, whereas we, mom had a bag of like old clothes that we'd grown out of that we'd put on and go mudsliding. ripped up the grass on these slide hills and we would just be down there all day mudsliding and the mum had this bell thing and she could ring at mealtimes if we wanted to come up but and and now and the snakes you know like I think now like I would be freaked out if my kids at that age like nine I guess it was eight nine when I first went there and we were doing it from day one and just the swimming like now even at that age I don't think they were even around that the dam was massive we were the dam, were, it was just whatever we wanted to do and I think now if that were my kids at eight or nine, well I know it because I went to that, I went home with my kids little and I was always like oh the snakes or the river or they're gonna kill themselves but there was none of that like they, mum I don't think she even panicked I don't know maybe she did secretly but we never knew that. think it was just it was different. So that's that feral, right? That's that feral experience you had. And so when you went there with your children, you were probably helicoptering a bit, just like most of us, Jennings parents, because we try we wanted to create. Well, for those of us who came from damage, we wanted to create the childhood that we always wanted and become the person we needed as a child for people like you and Brian. You had that. But still, with some you didn't have. safety barriers really. then now as your parents become parents, then you're more on top of it with safety probably. Like did you find that when you were there with your young children, you were going with them to the river and you were keeping an eye on them around the water? Yeah. very recently, like my daughter, last Christmas I remember we had friends from Melbourne come up with us and she had a friend there same age so they would have been 12. And that was kind of the first time that I was like, okay, you can go down to the creek, you know, on your own, but also my husband. he's 60. He was born in 65. And so he was older again, having kids. And I think with age comes that paranoia that, you know, you have more existential thoughts yourself and then obviously about your kids, you're like, oh my goodness, they're going to just kill themselves. But so he was very much even more than me on top of, oh my goodness, they're going to die. Like we have to. yeah. When you're young, you still have ignorance and bliss and also information overload now. With technology, we know almost so much that it's analysis paralysis too much. So it kind of takes away. yeah, you know what can happen. And I think, I think that's the thing because when our parents had kids as well, they were quite young. So they had that factor. It was different generation, but they were also younger. Whereas we, you know, I was 35, my husband was 45 when we had kids. And you know, I mean, shit's gone down in life and you know what can happen and you've experienced it you've lived it you've survived it you've seen what's going on and then you have these little kids and you're older and you realize the value of those kids I think when you have them younger this kind of like you know it's what you do and you're also more egocentric when you're younger so you're not thinking as as much about the kids whereas when you're older you're like you've lived I mean my husband I especially we both lived all over the world we've traveled a lot we've done a lot So we're at this point where we had kids and we're like, wow, these are like these amazing, precious little things. This is awesome. Sense of purpose, all that stuff. And so yeah, you know, you send them into a snake pit, you're freaking out. You can't just go, off you go. It's true. And when you have kids young to you're also building your life. So you're you don't have as much right monetarily. You're building your wealth. You're building your career. You're building. So there's focus that goes on to that too. So whereas maybe when you have children older some of that is already um there's a foundation of that. So you can focus more, get more attention to the children because you're not as focused on that. Yeah, you're established. So it's different. exactly. think the key word you mentioned is you survived. And you realize when you hit a certain age where you're like, holy shit, I survived. I did some crazy stuff. I'm glad I'm lucky I'm here. When you're younger, I don't reflect on it quite as much to realize some of the stupid things you did or situations you put yourself in, like boogie boarding down a swollen flooded river with barbed wire. I can picture that. Yeah. No. if I was, you know, don't know. you kidding? Like we... and there's... We're a total helicopter. I say it all... I'm helicopter for my own reasons because of coming from such a chaotic childhood. So I was like, I was aware of all the things because I went through it. You're helicopter just because of that natural safety The milk carton. The milk carton and all that. It's like balancing. So when you were in elementary school, which you started in Brisbane, and then you transferred schools out to the country, was that a big change for you going from a school like in a more urban environment to a rural school? probably not so much because it was a decent size. I remember I was always quite anxious and not that that was a label or an acknowledgement of anything, but I know I always felt so that was quite hard for me. And I remember. you know, I spent many, because we had to wait half an hour at school for the school bus, like after school, because the bus going out to the property came half an hour after school finished. So we waited. And I remember going to the class because I was kind of probably a nerd, but at the time, not knowing that I was, I'd help the teacher out in the classroom cleaning up the pains and all that sort of stuff. So I was always kind of involved and I loved school. I love studying. So it's kind of hooked into that. But I did get anxious about Friends like I sort of always was a bit nervous about that sort of thing So it was more that rather than the actual change of setting it was more just the change of cohort Having to fit in, know that kind of thing bothered me established a social circle in Brisbane? from, for here it's called preschool, kindergarten, and then elementaries. So preschool's like three to five, and then kindergarten's five, and then elementary six and up. So it feels like you did your preschool, kindergarten, and first through third in Brisbane through those years. Did you have a little group or some, best friend or anything? Yeah, I had a couple, I had one specific best friend because I did, cause I didn't go to my, cause my mom was home. I didn't start anything until I was five, which was called preschool. So I did preschool and then I did years one, two and three when I was there. And so yeah, had, I had a best friend and I had close friends. I don't remember now, maybe at the time, but I don't remember now grieving them. don't remember. They used to come up because my mom was staying at her mom. So she was heavily involved with the moms of those people. So I remember them visiting us. For years later, it you know dropped off in frequency, but they came up to visit us So we had that but also we were because again, my mom was set her mom. were very hooked into my family so I was with cousins and so at that young age, I guess my cousins were super important to me and We always saw them and my grandma was my mom's mom was super important to me because we spent a lot of time with her as well and so because grandma moved up there with us and and then my cousins were visiting all the time, either staying at my grandma's house or our house, I think the transition was kind of smoother than it might have been for other kids. I'm not sure. sense. then when you started school in, remind me again, the town. Woodford. I know. just thought about that with the wine. Woodford, when you started school in Woodford, did it take you a while to, because you would have been third grade or fourth grade? I went into fourth grade, so we moved up there. Our school year starts in January, I started, so we moved up that summer. So our summer is over Christmas, so we moved up over Christmas during our summer break, and then I started in January in year four. totally forgot about that. Your seasons are very different from ours. So what is... Yeah, that's wild. We're going into spring. So you just finished... What'd you just finish? What season are you... grade three in like the December, had our summer break and we moved up during the summer break and then... How long's your summer break? It was about six weeks in primary school and then we have eight weeks now with the kids there in high school. So your school season is January to like October-ish? January, well sort of end of January till beginning of December. That's our school year. So we pretty much have, I guess, you know, depending on where it sits and at some point, six weeks within December and January we have off. So we have that double whammy as parents. I'm sure you'll appreciate this. So we have this. So you hit Christmas, you hit the end of the school year, you hit summer holidays all at once. nuts it is nuts i know it's crazy it's crazy Wow. No, and you don't even have that long of a break because our summer is nine weeks. And then we all and we get two weeks off for Christmas break. We get a week off. We just finished a week of spring break. We get Good Friday off. We get, you know, President's Day off. We get the week of Thanksgiving off. So we have lots of times off, but our summer is nine weeks. See that's a lot, well now ours is, because our kids are in a high school, private high school, so they get, you know, the more you pay, the less they're at school. So we have like, so that's eight weeks. But during your break, you have to do Christmas? It's insane. you can imagine our November. Right and December so especially like two years ago. My my daughter finished high primary school. So, you know what it's like you got the graduations You've got like the million things you've got to show up to the end of school this and that and then all the end of school year teachers Presence acknowledgments all that going on while you're trying to prepare for Christmas, which is again another And then you got the summer holidays you're planning what you're going to do So as soon as that's of you're entertaining the kids now for well, it's eight weeks now, but it's pretty nuts. When I started because the kids were born in London so we didn't actually move to Melbourne until my son was six so he had done a couple of years school over there already so I didn't you you always thought gee Christmas it's hectic but then I moved here it was like boom it's crazy it's crazy it's wild wild. It's so wild. And also that's wild for the teachers, because they also have to do Christmas during their quote unquote summer break. That's crazy. I'm going to say extra prayers for all the mothers. though for the year. So they done before, they finish like, I don't know, mid December or sometimes 19th of December, they'll finish work and then they're off for six weeks as well. But yeah, they haven't had the lead up. What's wrong with that for the teachers? That pretty they have to do Christmas for their family, which is going to take up easily a week, week and a half. Let's push it to two, really. And then do you finally feel like you're done? And then they only have four weeks left, and then they have to start a whole new year. it goes Christmas, then New Year's. Yeah. you don't get the downtime you don't get like that proper summer downtime Yeah, because you're spending half of it in build up to Christmas and then Christmas and then recovery obviously from the Christmas And then you kind of half done. So it's yeah Yeah because I don't know about over there, but over here for a lot of us, Christmas prep starts in August because you start shopping, you start looking around, you start thinking. Even the mental fatigue of it starts around August. Even if you're not actively doing your like, it's coming, it's coming. And so you're starting mentally. lists. You're popping stuff on lists already. You know, you're kind of like. Yes. And then do you guys, you have Halloween, right? Is that a universal? Okay. Okay. Yeah. Americans, we didn't have it growing up, but now it's massive. Yeah, well not growing up in rural Queensland, didn't, you we knew about it, but no one did anything. I mean, they might've done it in the cities more, but now it's, yeah, massive. Yeah, thanks for that guys. Thank you. uh go crazy? Like here, the whole family's dressed up. People have like, you know, parties, there's like, they're in their drive, at least where it's warm, they're in their driveways. And it's a whole celebration. Is it like that there? a big thing. Although we don't as a family, we decorate the house as my daughter is big into it and they all go out trick or treating and everything, but we don't host a party. Some people have them, but you know, but we get the dress ups and all that and the sugar, you know, all the stuff. yeah. Oh yeah. But you guys don't have Thanksgiving. I know that. Okay, so at least she didn't have that. Do you have anything like that though? Where there's some out of cycle holidays that we don't have that you have that are kind of just about Australia. National holidays that just put things down. We have in January before the kids go back to school the very controversial Australia Day which is very controversial now because um Well, because obviously Australia was settled by the Brits. So it's like a white and so Australia Day is celebrating, you know, the establishment of that culture. So the British arriving here and calling it Australia and having a lot of that, whereas obviously the Aboriginals were here for many, many years before that. there's a rebranding of it by a lot of people saying it's invasion day. So. So it's all very controversial, but it still is. don't know how, for how much longer it will be on 26th of January. It's Australia day and everybody celebrates that, but not in the Thanksgiving sort of high maintenance way. It's more in the very Aussie, you know, light up the barbecue, chuck some sausages on, invite some mates over, drink some beer, jump in the pool kind of way. So it's maybe, yes. Okay. So it's like that. Yeah. day That's our independence from Britain. That is our invasion. Well, think Columbus Day is more, yeah, which they've tried. That's like a dual celebration. Okay, anyways. All right, so when you got to Woodford, You're still in elementary school. Did you participate in any sports or clubs or art or theater? Like, did you have any interests other than school during that time? Yeah, yeah, I think my parents plugged us in pretty quickly to the extracurricular. It's a very Aussie thing. So I played, I don't know about straight up, my parents were big tennis players. So I was obviously played outside of school, know, played tennis. I played netball. I did ballet. I did tap dancing, you know, did girl guys or brownies at the time. So all this stuff. Yeah. I don't know how my mom with four of us did all the things. Netball? What's that? What is it? So it's... That's hilarious. So it's um massive here, everybody. Women, all the girls play it. So it's like a basketball concept, but you're not allowed to run with the ball. You're not allowed to even step with the ball. So as soon as you get the ball, you're static. and you throw it to the next person. And then you've got to get it up there at your end, shoot a goal, you know. So it's the most like basketball of any of the sports, but it's, no, it's different rules. So you can't bounce it, you can't bounce it, you can't run with it, you can't do any of that. So you're basically throwing the ball from one to the other, shoot the goal. And it's the goal like a basketball hoop. Yeah, without the backboard. So it's like a... any physical, like, do you run into each other or can you tackle each other or? No, like you get it you get penalties for that so if you contact anyone or if you're defending less than I don't know what is a meter out from someone you'll get contact and you go stand beside they get the ball So it's very much, yeah, you get the ball, you throw it, stop, can't move your feet, throw it to the next person. You have certain positions, there's seven players. You've got to play your positions. You can't go past X line if you're this, you know, role. So it's, yeah, I don't know. It's huge. Every girl growing up plays netball. My daughter plays netball. So sounds like the defense on that is basically intercepting the ball, right? From passes, that's the deep. That's so interesting. Now I'm going to have to look that up after we're done. I want to see what that's like. So your did your parents have all four of you in that many activities? That's amazing. I don't know. That's amazing because that's unusual, too. mean, at least we were Gen X over here. We were involved in stuff, but it was more like school sports and maybe rec stuff. But somebody was giving you a ride. So it would have been like your mom giving like ton of us a ride somewhere. wasn't, you know. on, I think about this all the time now because obviously I felt ashamed to become a stay at home mom because as a Gen Xer, that's like a failure. But um I look at it now and I think that's kind of the glue because it was moms and being in the countryside and where we were, there were a lot of stay at home moms. But, you know, and if they worked, it was like they were picking strawberries or they were receptionist at the doctors or they, you know, I don't really remember any. how women role models, which was kind of this weird place that I sat as a high achiever thinking I had to be something, but I didn't know what, you know, I felt the pressure that I had to be something, but had no idea what that was. It was created this. per se. I didn't know. Yeah. What could you be? I don't know. You know, so it was this kind of weird stress, but, you know, so I think there were a lot of moms, you know, shipping people around here, there and everywhere, but also it wasn't that big. like I'd finished school and I could walk up to the Brownie hall, you know, so I guess, you know, there was that freedom, you know, we were left to do that. I could, I would get there, but because there were four of us, mom had to choose one or two of us who she had, who was going the furtherest. So she'd come and pick up and ship, but then the netball training was at the school. because it's country town, so nothing was, you so that you just stay at school afterwards. So there was never anyone watching us really until I got picked up often. So you would finish school and you'd get to your thing. Cause it was all, you just walk up to the Brownie Hall, you walk up. Yeah. so she had all four of you and stuff after school. So that gave her time to more time where you guys are in activities before she had to grab all of you. That was that was smart. So as far as feeling that need, that high achieving need or that need to quote unquote be something or do something. Do you remember how old you were when you first felt that that pressure you put on yourself? don't know, you know when I felt it actually, because I, when I moved up. to woodford I was in grade four and I was saying before I was always helping the teacher out after I like I never thought anything about myself I just kind of did and I know in grade three I was the one who could spell the best or you know, kind of knew I had I did that stuff But it wasn't until grade four They I spent that first year Mainly in the classroom after school helping, you doing all this stuff And I remember there was this other girl who was always a goodie in class She always put her hand up. always, I never put my hand up much. I was always a bit modest, nervous. I don't know whatever I was, but. And at the end of the year, there was an award, the awards night, and I got this award for like the best, or I don't know what it was around or rounder or best something in the class. And I remember being shocked because I just, I just didn't even have any concept in my head that I would get anything. I never thought of myself as that. And then I got that. And then I remember after that feeling like I, think I started at that point to pen, I don't know why exactly, but pegging my worth to that I have to achieve. I was always getting the highest result. I was achieving but I don't think I noticed it so much until that point. I don't know if it was a result of having been very new there. I didn't have anything else yet to really fit myself into maybe. don't know but I definitely remember that. It probably started around then but it wasn't as heavy until high school. So when I hit year eight, which was high school at that time, um I definitely, and so probably year seven, the year before high school, so I used seven and eight. I remember it very clearly because I was always good at things and I got most years, I got like the best sort of all-rounder kind of, was this weird thing they had and. got lots of acknowledgement in those ways of achievement. And at that time, there must have been a lot of stuff starting off with the kids at school where they would, I was in the popular group. I ended up being school captain, all those annoying things um that kind of corrupt your ability to be you because they create this version that you have to be. And I remember a friend of mine, must have been grade seven, was very good friends with her. And then I sort of started to hang out more with the popular group. uh she had noticed that she said to me one day after school, waiting for the bus, the half hour wait till the bus came and she just said, why are you always putting yourself down? Why are you pretending this and that? I'm like, I didn't know I'd done it. And it's very insightful for a girl who was probably 12 to say that to me. um But it's, it crystallized, I never did anything about it. It crystallized that thing in my head of me having to pretend I wasn't. doing well or putting in effort to do anything. But equally that I felt this pressure to be the best because that was my currency. That's what kind of made me worthy was doing best. So it started pretty young, I think. Like, I don't know how young, if that's young or not, but it felt like young. It sounds like you kind of anchored yourself in that um producing is your worth, like achieving is your worth. And when you got that certificate, because maybe you were still figuring out your social structure at that time. So you didn't have a strong social circle to anchor yourself in. And so it started there in Getting recognized, right, that became kind of your identity. identity. then you succeeded at it and thrived. But to be in a popular girls group, there's always a queen bee. And I had she probably did not like anyone who was doing better than her, I would assume was part of the problem within your group. Is that a correct assumption? I think so. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It was a weird thing because I was, yeah, I always felt like I had to lie about my results. Absolutely. And there was a lot, it was kind of a group of, you know, there's a few people in the group and I guess there was one kind of Queen Bee who may not have identified herself as the Queen Bee but definitely she held sway in terms of things but it was just all this stuff that started going on between everybody you know I was judged for this I was quite popular over the school but so no one would know and that was the horrible thing as well you feel really lonely in this because you're in this group where you just feel awful all the time which hit a point probably in grade nine when I was 14. and Yeah, I just felt and I didn't know it like yes, okay, they were probably saying these mean things about me like I steal all their boyfriends or because boys might like it's a small pond so there wasn't much effort to be made to actually stand out but um you know and I did and I and they would say things like you might do well at school but no you know you're not a good person like literally things like that like really or pulling me down or like a lot of things pulling me down it wasn't about my results but I felt like I had to hide that and we have this thing in Australia called Tall Poppy Syndrome. Don't know if you have it there. No, but when I was reading your questionnaire, it made perfect sense because you spoke a little bit about it in your questionnaire. But please, for our listeners, explain what tall poppy syndrome is. So it's this thing, so poppies by their nature, biology, strangled the tall one. So they have this way of being where they'll be a tall poppy and a strangler to pull it down. And so in Australia, we say that, so anyone stands out, they get pulled down. so, you know, that looking back, I guess it's a product of that, but. I think I didn't see it at the time. You you just think, my gosh, I'm not a very good person. No, I, know, I'm a terrible person. I have to change myself. I have to whatever. But the thing that was always my winning strategy, like I knew I could do well, you know, I got school captain, I got, I was a fast runner, you know, all the things I did. Okay. Like I had this kind of thing going on. So that became where I pegged my worth. But at the same time, I was ashamed of that as well. Like, is this dichotomy, right? Where you can't You're pulled between. And I think it's doubled down on because in our generation, because we'd broken out of the kitchen, we were like, you you're supposed to as a woman achieve things. So I thought I've got this potential to be able to do that. But that's the thing that I feel I have to kind of dial down. But at the same time, I attach my worth to it. So it creates this horrible scenario. Like, how do you get around that? there a double standard? Is it the same for guys and boys or is this more of the girls? Over where she grew up, you mean? The tearing down. I can relate to some of what you're saying around, I was pretty good at sports and I became this identity of that became my identity, right? But if I was successful, it worked out well as opposed to what you're describing it. you had to kind of hide your success. And I wonder if that's a girl versus boy thing, a male, female thing. socially, did your friends, did they lift you up or look up to you because you were like the star quarterback or whatever? That's the difference. Yeah, no, except some people, right? There's always the exceptions, not the role. In general. So what an internal, I mean, I'm sorry, those years are hard enough. And then to have that internal struggle, but it's such a great way of summing up what it was like to be a Gen X girl because you're right. We were sold the you can go to work now. You can have a you can have a career. You can do all the things. You can be the career woman. You can be the mom. You can be skinny. You can be beautiful. You can, you know, get married and be the perfect woman. But don't shine too bright. You need to shush yourself. You need to be quiet. You just need to do that with quiet dignity and don't don't shine while you're doing it. But you better do it. Yeah, you're expected to do it. But you're vilified for it. Like I remember I started, our school went to grade 10 and then I had to change schools. when I got to grade 10, I turned 15. So then the next January I had to start at a different school for grade 11 and 12. And it was 30 minutes drive from the other school. But year 10 had been a big year because I was the school captain. got... best all-rounder I got, Lions Youth of the Year. There's this thing called Lions Youth of the Year in the Lions, I don't know if you have Lions Club which was like a charity... We have lion's club. have koanas. I know there's a lion's club, but it feels more like it's a men's group, but I don't know. Probably not in the same way. Not the same. it might be maybe a men's, I don't know, but it's, I don't even know what it generated, where it comes from as such, what they, what their main reason for being is as such, but they're involved in the community and yeah, and so it's quite a thing and they have this youth of the year, which I got that year in the region or whatever it was. And so all these things, and I remember being in the newspaper for my swimming, there was a photo of me, I can still visualize it. There was a photo of me. way ahead in the swimming. I go in the pool, like wins the race, whatever, on the local. I mean, it's all small town stuff. It's not like any kind of Olympics, but you know, at the time. But then... I remember going to this school, the next, the new school and the first day getting off the bus and here's an anxiety sufferer because of all the stuff I'm trying to manage and not show and be and no one likes me because I'm this but I'm you know all the stuff and I turn up first day this girl sort of burly kind of girl uh walks up she goes I know who you are and just because you got all those things doesn't mean anyone's gonna like you can you imagine like That is like a That is like a movie. It is a scene from a movie. That's a scene from a movie. What a nightmare. But did you have everyone have to move schools? Like, did your school only go to year 10 and then your whole group moved to this? It wasn't just you. OK, so everyone moved. different schools because where our school was, so you could go half an hour further into the country actually, which is where I went, stupidly. And then, or you could go like half an hour towards city. So there was a few different options. So it wasn't like everybody went to the same school. She was waiting for me. So when you were in seven and eight is when this really started where you were feeling the pressure socially from your female peers, I assume, right? I highly doubt the male peers were doing this, but the female peers are trying to strangle you and bring you down. That's all Poppy syndrome. the close group, you know, only the, yeah. Yeah. And so because there's no boundaries there, right? It's the people that are more in arms length honor boundaries because they haven't been allowed access to you to that degree. And then for nine and ten, was it were you still with that within that same close group for nine and ten? was always only in the close like I think in grade nine Yeah, it was always only the current close group and so I would end up befriending people Outside of that close group because I'd be on the outer no one be talking to me, you know and in their world They probably didn't even notice it You know what I mean? But because I internalized everything and I was highly anxious like highly anxious. Okay didn't know that at the time I just constantly felt in this kind of panic all the time kept achieving, kept doing this and then I'd feel ashamed because they'd be saying, you know, they'd be attacking me for things like I remember getting a new skin product and them going, that'd be right. You'll get good skin. then, you know, like just these kind of like jives at me all the time. And like, Yeah, and so, they, you know, I don't even judge them because actually everyone's trying to survive, right? They're all in the same pot of crap and being teenagers and being girls and having same pressures and all the stuff. So I don't judge back then, but from my perspective where I was sitting, it just was awful. I felt so bad about myself, but equally had to keep achieving because that was the only currency I felt like I had. Right. It was almost like a trip in a way probably felt like self sabotage because the more you achieved, the more anxiety that was more anxiety inducing and the more you were worried about how your friends are going to treat you. But the achievement was your, guess, kind of like your dopamine, your validation. But there was all the negatives that came with it. So it's almost like achievement was a good and a bad thing for you. Did you ever and you got your nervous system was probably off the charts. You're in fight or flight like Constantly did you none of us their mental illness and anxiety and depression that wasn't a thing for Gen X But did you ever talk to your mom about how you were feeling or what was going on with these girls? No, like I remember saying it, you know what, and this is the thing, like, because my parents were incredible, like we they were so supportive and there was no pressure coming from them. That was the thing. It was all in one an internal pressure because I am a perfectionist anyway. So I suppose once you know you can do something, you want to make sure you do that. So I always had that. But I still even though that I never really talked to them about it because I don't think there was a language for that. It wasn't. In our generation, we didn't really talk about feeling, you know, I might say, I'm nervous and it'd be like, ah, because there's no one really thought about that. very deeply. They didn't think you might be really suffering mentally. Anxiety wasn't even a word. Like I don't, I would never have heard that. And to think of seeing a psychologist would be so shameful because it only indicates you're in an asylum or something. Like it just wasn't a thing. So there was never a conversation. You know, I remember saying, you know, had all these trouble with my friends because in year nine, I stopped eating. um And I know my mom became, but see she was friends with the moms of all these girls because it was like, you So you have all this stuff going on and they were lovely people. They were actually really nice people. And as adults, I'm sure they're lovely people. But in this environment and because of my nervous system and because of the way, so probably as well, saying things to me might've had a million time worse impact than maybe saying it to someone else because I had so much insecurity and stuff. that was said just was like, my self-worth was so low so I think it damaged me more than it might damage somebody else but with girls like that, at least I'll say in America, once they know that about you, they don't stop. That's actually they're like, there's our victim. Once they see that, they pounce. It's almost like all empathy is gone, all compassion. And it's like, that's our punching bag. So it's like. even know if they would know it because I was just very quiet and I would just move to someone else like I kind of they mustn't I Don't know They must have known but I was a very good social chameleon as well So I would very much know what to say and what not to say to provoke and not provoke So comes to yeah So your identity was achievement, but then it sounds like you didn't have a foundation of anything else solid because you were a social chameleon as a coping mechanism to deal with because you were a victim of bullying. um So in a way, it's like how did you didn't have an identity yet because you were changing it depending on who you were hanging out with as a coping mechanism and probably disassociating to some degree. I would think to deal with everything in school, which is a home 10x coping mechanism. Whatever I had to be, I was. Like I became that. I kind of just, yeah, it's a total identity crisis. You you don't know who to be or yeah, you be what you need to be. figure this out about yourself? Like probably not while in it, right? But at some point after you realized you were in this loop. I don't think I figured it out for years, like till recently to be honest when I probably hit motherhood actually I think is when I figured it out because I So yeah, I went to school You know grade 11 and 12 and then that was a ride because I got school captain at the next school So then that was also a thing And I became Miss Rugby League. Can you imagine? I didn't realize we had such a superstar here. No, it's not. It's not like it's the most tiny place in the world, but I don't know what happened. quick, I just have to ask. um When you said grade nine, you stopped eating as a coping mechanism. I also went through that. Did you have an actual eating disorder? have anorexia or bulimia? Or what was it? I did it consciously because I just was like, needed some, I don't know why. I just wanted to, maybe it was a way of showing my mental disarray. You know what I mean? I think that was kind of maybe a cry for some, some shit's really going down. And that was my flag, but I don't, you know, obviously it made my mom really worried and I don't know what to do. you couldn't put words to it. I know for me, that's a good point, is a cry for help. But also it was the one thing I could control. I had so much chaos that I was like, I can control this. And so that it gave me, it brought me peace because everything else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We actually are going to do an episode on it at some point, but um it was a coping mechanism for different reasons. But that's why when you mentioned that, I think that a lot of Gen X girls at one point in their life, whether it became a full blown eating disorder or just they dabbled in it. I think if you ask most Gen X women, somebody had some experience with that during their adolescence or college years. I just think because also with society and we came from the thin diet culture. We didn't come from where curves were celebrated and all that stuff. um I think all of us, I think most female guests we've had on when I've asked everyone has had some sort of experience with whether it's dabbling in it or full blown eating disorder. And it's a coping mechanism for whatever's going on. Yeah, it is a coping mechanism. But also just to feel okay about yourself because like you think about those magazines we used to read and that circle cellulite or the thigh gap, you know, this thing. And so that's what we were told we had to be. And so it's a coping mechanism to accept your body to go, okay, well, if I don't eat, at least I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to. So even if it's not from the sort of mental health fallout of something else, it's from that quest to be what you think you should be physically, which was ridiculous. You know, I just can picture those magazines. my God. If you're a high achiever, then you're like, I'm going to try to achieve this. You know, you're naturally going to try to achieve the thigh gap. My body is not made. It's not no matter. No, no, I got really skinny when I was in the throes of my eating disorder and I still didn't have my legs are not made to have a thigh gap, no matter how skinny I got. But like the fact that we were sold that that was you need a thigh gap, you know. manage that like if you've got because I don't have the body either because I was the same like when I got to grade 11 no grade 12 I remember getting thin as well and dressing for my formal trying on a dress and I'm like mom like I've got a curve, you know, was thin, I was way too thin for what I should be because of that, you know, and mom saying to me, but that's just the shape of your body. And that felt like it was like sort of a criticism that my shape of my body wasn't right because it was, you know, which is crazy. It's so awful. It's awful. Yeah. can you explain what is one school captain? What is that? Is that like president, like president of the school or government? we have student governments. We have like president, vice president, treasurer. have school. But what is what is that? about it. We just call it like school. So you vote for it's four people. It's a boy and a girl school captain, boys school captain, girls school captain. And then you have the vice. boy and girl school captain, vice captains. So, and then you have your sport captains because you have four sport houses or however many sport houses and then there's a captain of it. Now there's a million more like at my kids school there's like an environment captain, a friendship captain. I mean everybody gets a flag but back then it was like you know just the school captain so you were the one that you might have to talk at assembly or you might have to represent the students voice at something or you know I don't know all sorts of things. People voted for you then to be the... Okay. So as much as you had the target on your back or as Brian calls it, ankle biters with our kids who've also achieved things. always tell our kids, if they do better, people are going to try to tear them down all They're biting at their ankles. But so as much as you had that going on, you still, like you said, had floated around in all these social circles enough to connect with enough people. You were voted school captain every year. So what an interesting. know what goes on with that, but yeah. Yeah. like you were treading water in just chaos. To me it sounds like that. it, you don't not take it. Like I don't see say no, I'm not going to be a school captain because I know that being things is my currency. That's my word. So you can't then extract yourself from that either. And I couldn't do badly at things because then I've got no worth. So even though it might make sense to think, okay, I'm going to just do badly. I would talk as if I was going, I was doing badly or I would say before an exam, you know, everyone's there going, I'm so nervous. And I'd be like, nervous. I've had to study on, you know, uh, you know, you have to enter that arena as someone that's in the same boat. But yeah, I often didn't. in time where you wanted to back out, like pull out? Like, I'll give you an example. I was pretty well known for sports in a small town too, so I can totally relate to what you're saying. I hit a point where I didn't want to play a sport at one point. And it was almost like I got talked into it. I was like, I really don't want to. I don't want to. But I got talked into playing. It was football. Did you ever go through that? Where you were like, you kind of wanted to... pulled back but you kinda got pushed into it? Yeah, I think so, but I don't think I was as smart as you about that. Maybe I wasn't as insightful because... Oh, you're playing. Yeah. a plan. Yeah. But at least you had the conversation with yourself. Like I don't think I had the feeling like I had that intense saying, mean, I used to go to the sick room all the time with stomach aches. I just felt sick constantly and like constantly I felt sick every day. I woke up. I just felt panicked. That's just how I existed. And I can't, it became normal. And it's like, it's taken until, you know, these older years to go, okay, that's not normal. How do I dial down that feeling? Because even getting rid of that feeling eventually became scary because that's all I knew was Well, and because your cortisol is off the charts because your nervous system is totally dysregulated and your body gets addicted to that cortisol hit people don't realize that is when you are completely dysregulated and you are surviving and Treading water barely your cortisol is off the charts and it's almost physiologically your body then adjusts to that and so as you as you become regulated and and you know, slow down, downshift, call it, heal, your cortisol comes down, your body doesn't know what to do with that. We had a guest on that talk about that. talked about that. It's scary. then your body becoming healthy is more uncomfortable than staying in the dysregulated And more of a shock to your system, really. And if you're... Yes. ever known. And so all of a sudden you feel unsafe to be because when you're on high alert all the time, being on high alert, even though it's really unhealthy, you feel like you're doing something to, to look out for yourself. So you're kind of like this and then you, you know, to not be like that, you think, well, I'm not being so vigilant. That's scary. Something's going to happen. And so you keep the level, which is terrible. I think I think so many Gen Xers grew up like that. And even it's funny because you came from a very healthy, well adjusted upbringing. So it isn't just from your upbringing. It's it's it's it's I think part of it is that there was no outlet to put words to it. Because what a freeing experience for our kids. that they can identify what they're feeling. I'm having social anxiety. I'm having anxiety. I'm having I feel depressed. That alone, being able to identify and voice it removes so much of that panic inside of you. And I think that I think for Gen X kids, if we would have just obviously no one knew. But if we would have had those tools that could have helped us so much. I think that's why we were so dysregulated. And how you said on high alert, so many of us. Yeah. And even if we'd had the ability to speak about it somehow, there would be no receptacle for that because... The adult population had no idea how to deal with that. know, so at least now our kids can speak to us. Like my daughter suffers anxiety with the exam, perfectionist exams, you know, but she can talk about that. I can understand it and I can know how to help her and have a conversation about it and dial it down, you know, whereas we had none of that. So it just, it just sits there dialing up, dialing up, dialing up all the time. And it's so disabling. It's horrible. what's interesting is even other kids can talk about anxiety so they can relate to maybe what your daughter's going through and be a little bit easier. Give her some grace. They support each, in general, support each other. very accepted. It's very accepted on social media. Like the kids that were terrible to you, even if they had no concept, to your point, you said it earlier, right? They didn't know because they had no words for their own behavior and the fact that I'm being a shitty person because I have my own problems. and I have no way to discuss them and work it out. So I'm just going to behave a certain way. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. also like no one intentionally hurts anyone, right? Everyone just wants to feel better. And so if you're feeling crap, you put some crap out there to sort of get some kind of equilibrium within you. So yeah, but if they'd had the language that'd be going or the insight or the ability to sit and workshop at whatever, know, that'd be like, oh yeah, I don't feel good enough. So I actually want to say something bad to you. So you don't feel good enough. But if they could identify that you break the pattern. Well, yeah, because it was so much projection. Well, you've done that with I think a lot of us Gen X, there's parents have attempted to do that, break the generational cycle and not that it was passed down from your parents. It's almost some of us are breaking the generational cycle from what we went through as children. But some are breaking it from society, a societal where as a generation, as parents were trying to break that societal. issue that we suffered. So this generation of Gen Z and Gen Alpha doesn't have to go through that. So I think and I think most of us have tried to do that. Like in your relationship with your daughter is just one example of that. So you're I mean, I'm just picturing you in this panic attack, basically panic attack state. It feels like all the way through this went through all the way through year 12, like your whole from like seven to 12. So you're in this high alert state and you've done all these different coping mechanisms still achieving. um Did it end up busting at some point? Was there a moment where it had a climax and everything kind of fell apart? Yeah, well, it fell apart, but then it very quickly didn't, you know, all the pieces were reassembled very quickly, you know, but, cause it's no space to fall apart. There's no, how do you fall apart? know, and especially, it's not allowed. It's so true. Like I had so great. Yeah, I don't know. I had the youth of the year thing. I don't know what it was for. So I think this happened maybe in grade 12. So. I lived in this state constantly where I was panicked all the time about everything, but still trying to do well. Although grade 11, I didn't do well academically. I let it slide. think I just was like, I don't know. I can't remember my mindset. Maybe I was just whatever. But then obviously picked it back up for grade 12. I was school captain. I was on the debating team. See, I was, I don't know. I threw myself into these things because it was like, that was my only currency. So I kept doing and kept doing. completely panicked. Like it's like you do it even though you're shaking. You're like, okay, I'm going to do it. I'm to do it. You know? And so I did it. And then I had to do this speech. It must've been the Lions Club. And it was like for, I don't know whether it was for the youth of, I think it was the youth of the year. was representing, cause I got it in grade 10. So it might've been in grade 11. I don't know. Two different regions. was one guy from our school, the other vice captain, and then me, he was up for another region and I was it for this region. And so we were at this event where we had to speak about something. He was speaking about genetics. So I have no idea what I was speaking about because he came from, he, you he had a brother who was doing engineering in the States. His father was a school principal. So his world was slightly different. So he had a different lens to process things and to access things. And I don't know what mine was about. I have no idea because I don't know, I don't know that I knew anything, but anyway, had to do this speech. So I was probably already panicked about the content of my talk. what it was? I have no, you know, I've tried to remember that and I have no. I I remember what he spoke about because this is the thing I think I always sat so far outside of myself I lost absolute touch with what I thought who I was what I knew about You know internally that I felt so I had no attachment to that So I started to live this existence which was a complete reaction to everything else what everybody else thought what everybody else, know, so I Think that's why I don't remember anything about mine, but very much remember his because what I would have been thinking was, my god look how smart he is, look how much he's, you know, that's where I would have sat and then my anxiety comes up because then I'm like but my only currency is being smart but I'm clearly not smart because look at him he's got all that you know so then the anxiety gets worse it's like my only currency but I feel like I have that's not even real because so so anyway boiling pot and I remember an existential crisis literally during this moment of before you have to give this speech, it sounds like. Yeah, it was horrible. Like, and I'd already been in bits about it, didn't want to do it, but there was no thought about not doing it. Like, because that's failure as well. That's not, I don't know. was like a stupid paradox of everything. You just do it. Yeah. The Gen X grind. and you're a grinder. You get it done. do it. get, there's no question of not doing it. Regardless of the completely collapse internally. You're just, you're doing it. And so I did it and broke down in tears. I stood on the stage and I just, couldn't speak and I just tear. was a mess. just remember shaking and then so that moment, and I don't even know if I ended up pulling myself together and getting through the speech. can't remember what happened after that. Also remember. sitting in the car on the way home just crying so I broke completely broke but do not remember that changing anything alls I remember then back up back to school but you know I probably didn't do any more speeches. I remember doing the end of year speech as a grade 12 school captain and stuff, so I must have got up there. But from that moment on, what I do remember is I shook a lot. I remember shaking if I had to do something. So it clearly changed something, but I kept doing, walking the walk. I kept trying to... push and be what I needed to be. And I think the fallout started after school where I then didn't want to, you know, I was supposed to go to university obviously. And I studied, I chose to study social science. Like everything became uncertain because I was like, there was this, always this push pull between feeling like I had to do something that. conventionally showed success, achievement, whatever, because that's kind of my currency between the internal me that actually was searching for so much more like purpose, know, value stuff that I couldn't probably articulate back then. And I remember choosing social sciences at university thinking, okay, well, That feels purposeful. Like I was sort of always on a journey then. You know, I spent the end of year 12, that probably between finishing year 12 and university studying, you know, trying drugs, doing all the stuff, becoming a complete mess, drinking, all the things. And being a nightmare to my parents, absolute nightmare. Because I was like, and then I got into Bob Marley and music and became an environmentalist, like all the stuff, finding purpose, you know, meaning because that was... the expected, like, so I had these two worlds that were going on within me. So I applied for uni, got into social. Can you relate to that? Were you the same? can totally relate. became a deadhead and grew my hair out, had long hair and stopped playing sports. I wanted nothing to do with sports. Started mountain biking, mountain climbing, found Bob Marley smoking weed, drinking, right? The whole thing, grateful dead. And yeah, yeah. Well, you were partying though more, I think earlier in high school, because you said that sounds like more Year 12 is when you started. mean, I can you're partying. Yeah. But then I think what you're describing, I can relate to that, trying to leave it behind and become a new person and find who you kind of really are or just leaving that behind and trying something else, I think. Well, it sounds like because you were in a fishbowl. uh What I mean by that is maybe that makes sense, but Your world was very small. guarantee you if you went to the pharmacy or the grocery store, everybody knew who you were probably, right? Or at least you felt that way. Yeah. You were not anonymous at all inside of your little world there. No one was anonymous. Yeah, everybody knew everybody. So and it was. from year seven to year to that moment you did that speech. All those years you're holding it together. You're going through the motions. You're grinding. You're having all these this anxiety that's just ravaging your body, your mind, your emotions. And then that speech where you fell apart. But it was almost like a crack, a crack in the system where there could be there was room then for a shift because it sounds like that's where things started to kind of shift. know, you were shaking and you had some post-traumatic stress, it sounds like. And then you still gave your speech. sounds like a graduation. But you were easing into this new, you know, Bob Marley trying drugs, being rebellious with your parents. Sounds like that speech was that pivotal moment of things are going to start shifting a little bit. Would you say that's kind of accurate? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Because I was looking for something else, something that actually, I I didn't know it at the time, but yeah, you're searching for meaning, you know, I'm trying everything else. became a vegetarian, you know, all the stuff, wearing my mom's clothes from the sixties, be wearing B, you know, go to folk festivals, you know, you start to go, okay. because, because also I think that's the thing I've always been a seeker anyway, like my parents were in the church, um, growing up, my dad very much so. And, you know, we brought up to go every Sunday and all of this sort of stuff. I actually, even though I don't identify as a Christian now as I'm very very spiritual now, but I always loved speaking to, there was a guy, was one of the lay ministers, I think, at our local church and he used to go work in Papua New Guinea. And I loved speaking to him because he had this purpose. He was helping people. Like there was this other part of me which I'd never thought about. And I think that's what came out. It's like there's something I know that I connect with that's not achieving or whatever for the sake of it. And it was exploring that a bit too, because that's why it was the vegetarianism, the environmentalism, the all this sort of stuff. And I noticed with him, you know, he was helping these people, I think it was Papua New Guinea, he worked as a missionary, you know, in these places and it really resonated and so I studied social sciences because I thought maybe, you know, maybe that's my thing, you know, I to help people, I want to do something and so I went to do that but I got a call from the school principal, can you imagine? from I think the school I went to in grade 10 saying what are you doing you if I've heard you got into social sciences you should be studying maths and science what are you doing at that university and so I quit the course. Wait, what year? You're 10 in university or in high school? he was my principal in year 10 in high school, but called me when I got into university in, like years later, after school. goes through 11 and 12 graduates, goes to university. Do you guys go to university right after graduation from senior year? do. Okay, so go college. Yeah. So you went to university freshman and sophomore year in the social sciences and your principal from your high school called you. Yeah. When I got into it and was like, what are you, but this is the thing. I had the same thing in grade 10, no, grade nine. I wanted to study. I didn't know what I wanted. I was always a bit, cause I was living this external world, right? Reaction to everything, living as a reaction rather than, and I always, chose a subject, um metalwork, right? I wasn't allowed to do it. They had to do history because they're like, no, you're too smart to do metalwork. And so it was the same thing. or high No, no, in ninth grade. In high school. The metalwork. like the same thing kind of. I had this phone call about... You know, to be honest, I don't know that social sciences was the thing. It's just that I'd chosen it because I was like, you know, so he's like, you've to do something else like engineering or this or that. I'm like, okay, so I quit and I went to do engineering. I chose environmental engineering because I felt that, well, at least that's purpose. You know, I was sort of trying to marry everything up all the time, like how I kind of felt with what I. thought I should, you know, it this weird paradox of things and pulling in different directions and all that sort of stuff. So the journey kind of continued, which is sort of, so I went through that time of exploring and, know, Brisbane. Okay, so why did he have access to even call you? That's weird. She grew up in a small world. I know but like someone, one of my friends was chatting, you know, someone was chatting to him. I don't know. That's such our generation though. Cause never would we ever let anyone with our kids like the principal I would never give in. can relate if I remember going back and no with our kids we would never give their phone number. know I mean? Like I would never let the high school principal call my 25 year old daughter even now. You know what I mean? I'd be like yeah but back then it was like sure no one thought about a chat, you know, she'd probably love the advice. Like you, you know, and that's a valid thought, I guess, when you, you know, you don't know. yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, it's an interesting thought. Yeah, but no one would have thought about that that's actually not appropriate. But I'm curious. So and I have a feeling I know the answer, but our parents would have thought of, that's the principle. They're an authority figure. I should honor their. They know better. I bet Australia's like that and even a little more dialed up than it is here, right? Yeah, I think well at that time for sure. I think it's questioned a bit now, you know, I see my friends and I going talking about the teachers and like, my god, you know, we're a different generation, but definitely back then. I mean, you know, yeah, they were the school principal. They know they know they know what they're talking about that. It's an honor if they want to give advice because they care enough. It's an honor. So of course. have viewed that as, okay, I'm going to listen to him because this is amazing. He took the time out to call me and talk to me about my future. He must be right. So then you just switch gears into engineering, environmental engineering. It's Dave the Bear and Harif. Yeah, exactly. the reef, which is what my daughter wants to do. So that's bizarre. it wasn't as linear as that really, I don't think. It wasn't as neat as that, I don't think. Because I also, I was an easy target. Because I was studying this. I was taking random subjects. Like I was taking human resources and things that, you know, and I had zero confidence in myself. So the thought of being a counselor for someone or a therapist. I was scared of that. And even when I was an engineer, when I was studying engineering, I didn't graduate, by the way, I studying engineering. I remember thinking that even though I did well at it and I helped other students, was, I had this, I could never be an engineer because how can I make decisions? How can I tell people how this is to be built? I always had that within me. It was a product, you know, it was gonna be the result. I was gonna leave social science easily if I was told that. was like, okay, well, I've got no idea. Yeah, so I had very little internal knowledge or confidence or guidance, you know, so I ping-ponged around because of that. I could easily just be told, no, that's not right. right, right, right. And it's almost like as high achieving as you were. And as much as you probably knew theoretically, if you think about it, you had constant imposter syndrome. Like, you ever no matter what you achieved, you probably still always felt imposter syndrome with every level up. It probably didn't matter. Yeah. 100%. Everything I never, yeah. I was always surprised even from that little girl as a nine year old getting that award in grade four. Totally surprised that that was given to me. It was like, what? It was so weird and so always. And even, you know, I was producing documentaries by the time I moved to London. when I was 30 and I started making documentaries and I moved up quickly because I was older. I think I was 20. No, I was younger. was 28 I think when I started but Anyway, moved up quickly, but I, even then, even though, cause I'd lived in LA, I had a lot of access to people and things so that when we had to cover a topic, we did one on movies. So I was just had people that could give me, we're filming locations or get access to people. And everyone's like, this is amazing. So I kind of knew what I was doing. I moved up quickly and had confidence in my ability to kind of do things, but still I made sure I worked in a small company and I got to the point where I worked with the owner of the company. He was the director and I was the producer. this is after I'd sort of been through a few levels and never once did I make a decision. I made sure that the director, that he did all the creative. So I could get access, you know, I could get access to people at the Kremlin. I got access to, know, science that was being done by these scientists out in Florida and anything I could do. And I got access, got all the interviews, got all the information, but I'm like, I don't want, why would I know how to put together a documentary? Okay, I can do it. So that lasted forever. You know, that's just was hell I was. It's horrible. It's horrible. that was a constant. So when you when you went into environmental engineering, you said you didn't graduate. How long did you study that for? I did two years and then I went to Canada for almost a year and did a working holiday. was tarring the roads up in, I worked in a road gang. So I did like working holiday and earned money doing all kinds of stuff. I worked for Sears for a while. had a Canadian boyfriend at the time who I met through university. So we like took a year out and went, so we did two years, took a year out. went there, went down through Mexico, you know, just traveled and it was very freeing. So I was just, you know, it was me in a backpack. We were spending a hundred dollars a week. That was it. Living on beaches and like, it was awesome. And then 97, 1997. Sorry, you're a couple years younger than us. Okay, so you did your freshman and sophomore year in college and then left. Two years. What is the normal college time frame? Is it four years? That degree was four years, yeah. But it depends what you do. Like I think the social sciences would be three years, but then if you wanna be a psychologist, you would do then more, you know, you'd go into specializing in that and you'd do more years. So it's kind of depends what you study, but engineering was four years and you're out. So. Okay, so you did university for two years and then you had this boyfriend, an Australian boyfriend? Australian, but his dad was Canadian. So he had a Canadian passport. so anyway, he went, he was going to Canada and he did, I think he did six months at a Canadian university, like a sort of exchange. So he had left before me and then I came over and then we traveled and worked together. How did that go over with your family that you were leaving school and going to go to Canada? Well, they... I dunno. They were always supportive, do you know what I mean? And also... No, and they weren't ever... You know, they wanted us to be happy. They wanted us to do well, obviously. But I don't know, there was never any expectation in that sense. So there was never a disappointment. Well, I don't know, maybe they secretly did, but they would never tell me that. I think they were more scared because I'm over in this country because they'd never traveled, you know. And I remember being in Mexico. I went into Guatemala as well and I actually ended up getting hepatitis. I came home and had hepatitis A. And my parents, I got really sick and all the stuff, my parents, you know, that freaks them out because they'd never traveled. So there was more those things, I think they were worried, like, my gosh, she's gonna die, more than, oh, she's not at college. Do you know? wasn't, that wasn't the pressure. because if you think about it, what they knew of you is you were this high achieving student, right? And you were the school captain and you were all the things. And then two years in this college, you're like, actually, I'm going to go travel now. And so for a lot of parents, that'd be like, wait, what? What are you talking about? Like, is it such a veer off of the normal path? So what a testament to them that they still I'm sure inside like you're saying they were scared and probably like what's going on, but they still were supportive of you. That's really cool. That's really cool. they were freaked out and I'm sure they had those moments of what the hell. Because I think as well, they probably were a bit scared to say anything because I was quite rebellious in end of year 12. Not rebellious, I was just difficult. I think I was, and I was confused and I was doing all sorts of things. So I think, I guess they knew that. And so to say to me, no, they know I would just do it anyway, because I ended up being like that. I just kept doing stuff. And so, but not looking back. Yeah. I mean, it would have been scary. I was in Israel when the second inner father started in 2000 and we were getting bombed from Lebanon in the kibbutz and my parents would have been so scared you know they knew that the Australian government was contacting us telling us to get out and I'm like no I had an Israeli boyfriend at the time and I'm like no with the Israelis it's fine we've got our bomb shelter we've got our bomb bags like we're good but can you imagine like as a parent in Iberia when that was going on? crazy. We went from 97, she's traveling. Yeah, so wait, how long did you travel through Canada and Mexico? I have a different question. Which part of Canada did you go to? And then what was your route down to Mexico? Not the exact answer, but... okay, I flew into Saskatchewan, so into Saskatoon. So I left Australia, it was summer, I don't know, it was January. So it was like 40 degrees when I got on the plane and I landed, it was minus 40 degrees. So that was the first time I'd seen snow, the first time, you know, anything. So, because I grew up in Queens, I hadn't even left the state, but you know, this was like, you know, huge and I was... amazing. British Columbia? like the west coast of Canada? No, it's kind of in on the on the it's in the center but sort of east of center like right in the middle Yeah, right in the middle or or Michigan area. I think Montana's a bit further west, but yeah, kind of a bit further east, but yeah, in the middle. cold is different than even like northern America cold. It's cold. It was so cold. Well, minus 40 was on the thing. I mean, I filmed in Russia as well in minus 40. So I can't, and you know, when you're, I was probably more prepared for it then because I was already older. But when I landed from Queensland, I was probably wearing, you know, flip-flops. I don't know. I was like, no idea. 20. I was 20, yeah. Well she's talking Celsius too I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 40 Celsius is pretty nice. Yeah, yeah. So you're 20, never left Queensland. Not even... I went on a trip to Vanuatu when I was 18 with my friends, just a little holiday, but that was it. And I got a passport for that. But other than that, yeah, I left when I was 20 and I flew to Canada. Yep. So he was in Saskatoon and so we bought a car. So I had 400 Australian dollars in my pocket. That was it. But it was, no, he had a, he had a... place to stay, he staying with his brother, so we could stay there initially. And we bought this car, he must have bought the car, because I kind of spent my $400 on the car, I'm not sure. But we drove to Calgary. So we drove west, went to Calgary, as soon as we got to Calgary, I got a job, like, because it was, we were grafters, right? Like in Gen X, I was always like, before I left, I was working jobs at uni, was working jobs, like, I was used to just saying, okay, save money, save money, get money, you can do it, you know? And so, yeah, I got a job as soon as we got to Calgary, we lived in this basement. and got a basement apartment, got a job with Sears, the... department store in the delivery section. So I was working straight away and it was just all about earning money. And so we'd go to the Rockies for the weekends and stuff. But after a little bit, we realized we're not going to make enough money to travel how we want to travel if we stay here and pay rent and all the stuff. So that's when we got the job with the Road Gang, because then we could stay in hotels with them. They'd pay, the company paid. And so we traveled all around Alberta and Grand Prairie and, you know, by touring roads. So we were just you know filling the cracks with tar and then squeegeeing it over and moving on so we walked miles and miles a day so we did this for a few months and then saved up enough to then go and I think we did like a four month trip so we drove from ah Straight down the Rocky Mountains. So we're from Banff I think it was we started in Banff down through Jasp. It was beautiful and right down went right down to Salt Lake City So straight down and then straight across Salt Lake Desert to San Francisco. So it's like a... in this car that we'd bought in Saskatchewan. Huh? down through Montana, probably Wyoming. National Park? Yeah. Did you through there in Wyoming, the Grand Tetons, that area? Yeah. Yeah. National Park, went to all of that, Salt Lake City, across Salt Lake Desert, straight across, straight to San Francisco, then down to LA. And then in LA, we left our car with a friend of his parents or someone. I know. I mean, I don't know how this car made it. We bought it at an auction for so cheap in Sask, Sask, Saskatchewan. Anyway, we made it. And then we got a bus from LA right down through Mexico across to Tulum. I don't know if you know in the Yucatan Peninsula. And Tulum at that time was amazing. It was nothing there. I see now in the pictures, there's hotels and all sorts of things. But at the time, there were just a few little huts, know, like stick huts with the grass and with hammock. And I slept on a hammock. amazing and so we spent three months just backpacking around Mexico, went into Guatemala and up all around. I got sick in Mexico, went to hospital in Mexico like you know but we were spending a hundred dollars a week that was our budget from the time we left so I don't know how we did that I mean now it seems crazy but That's amazing. And did you ever as a woman, did you ever because I'm not we drove around the country around that time around 93, but we didn't leave and then we did Canada for our honeymoon. But we didn't ever do Mexico and down in that area back then. Did you ever feel an issue with safety as a woman or was it pretty safe at that time? You know what? I didn't, but I think, I don't know if I was just stupid, but what, I don't know. was, cause I was always really switched on, but I just never felt, I don't know, like even when I was in Morocco, like I think of things now, what, that I did and the man in Turkey getting a massage by a man. like naked like in this hamam and I don't know I think now the things I did I slept on the beach in Spain on my own me and my backpack and a jagasangria and but I never I never did and I think that's ridiculous but I just always trusted I'd be fine so I don't know Yeah, know. Ignorance is bliss. mean, honestly, because that's part of that Gen X too, I think. It's just because even when we drove around the country, had you had a ponytail, we had hippy stickers. And I remember your parents being like, careful in the South. And we were like, why? Like, what is the big deal? But because it never occurred, you know, but you were also. Yeah. Yeah. You figure it out. Yeah, you figure it out. Yeah. was our motto as well. It'd be like, we'll figure it out. Like, you know, even you visa issues, you hit this, you're like, we were shot at in Guatemala, this bus we were in, you know, but it still didn't worry me. I was like, no, no, be fine. Cause you know, we got, we'll get there and we'll get, know, but it just, I don't know. happen again. We got five. It won't happen again. Yeah. Just keep going. much a Gen X thing. You just survive it and you're good and you keep going. Because we weren't allowed to dive into anxiety or our emotions, you didn't really get worried about it. You're just like, okay, right, next thing, next thing, I can do it. Yes. And in those situations, I mean, that's where it pays off. And we didn't have a plan when we drove around the country. We're just like, we're just going to get up and we're going to try to get kind of here. Yeah. And if we get there, that's cool. And if not, we'll stop somewhere. Yeah. No, it was great. So you got sick in Guatemala. So then did that force you to have to go home? No. So I got sick. I was very sick like for three days but just didn't tell anyone. My boyfriend helped me. Some local lady told me to eat pumpkin, the lady who worked at the hostel, eat papaya seeds. And then we just came back into Mexico as planned you know and went to Zipolite. We were there and I got sick again and I was eating the papaya seed but then by the time we got to, I can't remember what it was, the north of Zipolite we went to somewhere. Anyway, I had to go to hospital because I couldn't breathe. So I went into hospital and was there because they were getting me asthma stuff and all this stuff. then beside me, a baby died beside me. So this mother, so it was in this hospital and I was sick and this mother came in with this baby that was blue. I guess it was caught death. I don't know. It was just like. my gosh. So I... this is in Mexico. This was in Mexico. Yeah. Cause I was like in the emergency, you know, I had this, um, was in this room and I just remember being there. So I was in a hospital then and that was just like, and then I just, it was this kind of thing as well. Like, cause this woman's going to go in grief and the doctors there, said, look, I don't, I'm fine. I don't need anything. Cause I grieve of like seeing the horror of seeing that happen and the grief of that woman. And so I was just like, no, I'm fine. So I just took a script and I kind of left. So I didn't stay in there and I got my. I some meds and I was actually ended up fine because I was an asthmatic as a kid. I had bad asthma. So I kind of just think I'd had pneumonia. I think it had come into pneumonia. Anyway, so I got the meds and I was actually fine. I didn't stay in hospital because that happened and I was like, I'm fine actually. I can deal. So I took my meds and left and got out of hospital. then I ended up, so I just stayed. Yeah. Then we went back up through the States, went back up to Canada. It didn't deter me. I kept going. But then when I got home because my brother was getting married so I had to fly home in the October. I had hepatitis. I got sick and I'm like... So I'd caught hepatitis somewhere. OK, so you don't know where. I guess it's in Mexico. We were eating from all the roadside stuff and you know, all the things. So I'm guessing it was there like, dunno, maybe it was in the States, but I doubt it. I doubt it. did you stay at home then because you were sick? Or did you only stay? Yeah, like I'd been away for, I don't Okay, so when you went back for your brother's wedding and you had hepatitis A, did you stay home for a while or did you kind of just get better and then join the boyfriend again? So no, I stayed home because I thought, this was the thing, right? Because even though I had this drive to find myself or to, I don't know, I want to find purpose, find something else. I was always hamstrung by this constant thought of, need to do something. I need to do something real. I need to achieve something valid and something that's, you know, conventionally recognized and whatever. So. Right. That was a constant, which I regret now because it stopped me from being in the moment a lot of the time. You know, you're kind of always like, oh, even though I, so I lived this kind of double way, like I kept doing things to pursue what I would find meaningful, but I also was constantly had this kind of, you know, pull towards, you know, the conventional marker. What should I do? So I ended up, I went back to uni. I went back into engineering because I was originally going to take a year out and then go back. So I thought well go back in the January and I started working in a cafe because I always worked and did uni so I just went back into that same scenario but I think I got halfway through third year and I just couldn't do it. I remember yeah I couldn't work out I just couldn't do it I couldn't see my I've had to do work experience and I couldn't see myself as an engineer I'm just like you know even though it's environment so but I didn't know what else you know because I didn't have any any modeling of that. Like I don't know, like even the school didn't tell me what I should be or how I should use that because I didn't. where I grew up I didn't really have people doing other than what was done in the area, know, sort of blue collar workers and set home moms and all that, which was fine. But if you want to work at the school or you want to be a conventional thing, like a lawyer or a doctor, they're obviously, you know, paths, you know, but I didn't know paths that might actually resonate with me. didn't know so many things. So I don't know. It's just, I just left. I'm like, okay, I'm just going to leave. So I left and I worked just, I don't know, various jobs just to save up again. And then the next, then I got a job in a hotel, five-star hotel, got a at the Sheraton. And so I did that. I don't know. I must've been in Australia all up two years in the end after I came back. No, so I moved out of home at 17 when I first went to uni. And then I didn't, so when I came back for the hepatitis, I obviously stayed at home, but then I moved down to Brisbane again. as soon as I was better and got a job and went back to uni, found a flat, you know, all the stuff and lived there. And then I worked, I don't know how long for, but I reckon I was in Australia. I left in 2000 again. So then I got back 98, like end of 97, I got back and then was here 98, 99. worked in hotels in the end. worked at Sheraton, I was in the front office and I got a job as the front office supervisor and it, you know, it could have been, oh, this could be a career path. And I was thinking, oh, even I could go into hotels and then create an environmental hotel chain. You know, I was always trying to find the purpose, like what's the bigger picture? What am I, what do care about that? But yeah, the meaning, I was always like, okay, so it had to be something, it had to be, but anyway, so then I left again. So it hit 2000. I must have left. I don't even know when I left. In 2000 sometime, beginning of 2000, maybe February, I don't know when. And I was like, okay, I might move to Sydney and become a naturopath. Like in my mind, I like, I care about health, I care about the nature, I care about... So in my head, I thought, maybe, I don't know, I had no idea, but I was gonna do something, I was gonna go to study again, because it was always had to do something that made sense. But I'll go first for three months. So I went to Thailand, spent a month in Thailand with a friend, and then I went to Morocco for a month, drove around Morocco with a friend, and then I ended up in Europe and I was going to go, I was going to travel from Spain to Greece overland. So was going to go across Corsica. I wanted to hike across Corsica. So I was on my own and I just kind of like, anyway, decided not to go back and hit probably the three month mark. And I thought, oh, so I went to, met this girl on the beach in Spain. I was on my own. I was like, what the hell am I doing? You know, I hit this sort of crisis point. It's like, what the hell? Like, I don't know. Maybe I should go back. I'd left another boyfriend back home because I'd broken up with the other boy. Boyfriends come and go, you know, there's another one So I maybe should go back, know, it left here in it anyway This girl just turned up on the beach and she's like in the same boat She's Australian girl and I said look I've got you know meeting a friend in Greece in like a month's time I'm gonna supposed to go across Spain across Corsica and I was always on my own because I Traveled with friends, but then I was gonna do that on my own. I didn't really like these Groups and there were a lot of Aussie backpackers around and you could get into these tours and green I didn't like any of that. I just wanted to do it on myself. So she was saying, so we just literally that afternoon jumped, got on a bus up to Madrid, got on a plane, went to Turkey. So we landed in Istanbul. She's like, let's just go to Turkey. I'm like, let's do it. So then we did, we were in Turkey by that night and we, I spent a month in Turkey just traveling around with her and I just getting buses. We did a few hikes, we stayed in places and just, yeah, her and I kind of did that. And then I ended up in Greece and met the friend who was coming over from Australia on a tour. Yeah. met and she was supposed to go back we were spending a week on the islands together and she was going to go back and I was going to continue on to the UK and probably work because I had a working holiday visa I thought I'll do that and her and I she decided to stay and I'd met a guy in Turkey that was telling me about Israel and I'd read a few books and I thought he'd worked on a kibbutz in Israel And I just thought that sounds awesome. So I jumped on her and I, my friend decided also not to go back. We jumped on a boat from Athens to Haifa, a three day boat that took us to Haifa. And we just found a kibbutz to volunteer on. And then we were there for, I don't know how many months, four or five months. I don't know. amazing. Wait, so to go back, you originally were going to go to Sydney to become a naturopath. But how in your head, but then what shifted to say, I'm actually going to just now travel for like the next year. Like, did you say, actually, I don't want to be a naturopath, I'm going to start, I'm going to take another year and travel to figure out what I want? Was that a conscious shift? It was just, it wasn't a timeframe shift as in I'll take another year or I'll, I just was like, yeah, I just didn't want to go back. I was like, no, cause it. Yeah, I didn't, I wasn't sure I wanted to be an actress. You know, I was always thinking and thinking because I was, I don't know, I had no idea, but I knew I loved seeing different countries. I was reading a lot of historical fiction as well. So then I go to like Athens and Delphi and all these places, the characters, the books I was reading. And I was like, I just, I love this. And so I thought I'd just keep going, but always, always, always had that panic of, okay, how can, where is this ending? How can I achieve something? But in a way, was lucky was being away, I felt like I wasn't being judged to achieve anything because I was already achieving by being out of the country doing something that was kind of obscure to people, but it looked like I was doing something. So it was kind of a win-win in that sense, you know what I mean? Took the pressure off. to normal people, like at least I can say to an American who went to college and then graduated and got married and started having kids, your life to me would have looked like full achievement and you were completely doing something meaningful to do all that traveling and have all that life experience. You know, I just think that's amazing. I think that's such a huge, meaningful achievement, not just an achievement for achievement's sake. And I know what you're saying. You wish you could have let go of whatever being worried about. How is this going to end? Is everything going to be OK? And had been allowed yourself to be totally present in that experience. But I understand that's the anxiety, right? That's like in there not letting you let go. But what a special moment for anyone to have in life. think that's amazing what you've seen in the experiences you've had. And to have the courage to do so much of it alone, I wouldn't have had that courage. I think that's amazing. Well, I often met, I then met people, you know, like I had my friend and I met a boyfriend in Germany and Israel. luckily, yeah. But I just, yeah, I don't know. It was kind of a good way to exist in not knowing because I was able to look like I was doing something without, you know, like it was okay. And so I never wanted to go back to Australia then because that sense then started to kick in because then I would have to face that pressure again. And that thought of, my goodness, like, What am I? What have I done? Well, I haven't ticked any of these boxes that they acknowledge, really. So being away was just this away thing. No one really knew what I was doing, no one really was involved in it, but I was away, so I must be doing something. So was great. I could just kind of... Also, there wasn't, I know there were phones starting them, but there wasn't social media. So it's not like you were posting up like now. Could you imagine? You were living the dream of an influencer. If you think about it, you're living the dream of an influencer. If somebody could do that now, every day would be like, you know, look, I'm here now. the fact that that didn't exist allowed you to just be away. Right. And they didn't know. It was perfect. And so. ah So then you said you were in Israel for like four to five months, then what did you do after that? I was there, it might have been six months, I don't know, yeah, I was there for a while. And then I ended up, had to be in the UK by a certain amount of time to activate my working holiday visa. Cause we get these things as Australians that you can work there for two years as on this working holiday visa. It's like a reciprocal thing. So I had that same thing I had in Canada. I think it's a Commonwealth thing, you know? So I had to get there by whatever date it was, I don't know. So then I ended up doing that. flew out. of Israel whenever that was that I had to and I got to London and it was really difficult being in I got there, got a job in a pub because I had no money obviously. I was like living on fumes as I was going but got a job in a pub and lived in a pub and kind of did that but I actually hated it when I first went there. was like because the meaning again you know being in Israel and having that you know you're at the cold face of life there's life and death going on there you know what was happening at the time because of the the stuff between Israel and Lebanon I was like right there it was like it's like real every that's so real and that's the kind of purpose I think I was always looking for but never had the courage to lean into like I could have gone and done some volunteering I could have but I always thought no I've got to get back on track to you know so I always was pulled so then I went to London so it's always this push-pull going on and Yeah, I worked there. I probably worked there for three months, two months, enough money. And then the boyfriend Israel flew to London. We drove all around the UK. We just got a car and went right up to Scotland, out of the sky, down everywhere. And then he had an American passport. So he flew to LA. And so then I flew to LA in the January because I was like, I just don't want to. be in England anymore. And just bizarrely met this English couple who were often in America, often in England. So I ended up working for them. And then I was traveling to England with them to, had a house in Italy, traveled to Italy with them as a nanny. So I looked after their little girl, she was a two year old. And so I did that for, I don't know, it must be a year. And then, you know, went back to Sydney because 9-11 happened. And so I was, um, at the time we were about to fly. We were actually in LA at that time but I was about to fly back to England and I was like, gonna leave anyway that job because I was gonna go possibly to Israel or... Italy because I loved it Italy because we'd spent a lot of time there. So I flew home I thought I'll look I'll fly home because I'm in a state of flux 9-11 haven't seen my parents in two years or whatever it was and my mom, you know So I didn't tell my mom so I drove home, you know flew home drove up there was like, oh, so that was amazing. Yeah But that was kind of cool. So I saw her and then I ended up You know, went to Sydney for a couple of months worked in a hotel because I was still had contact with the Sheraton so I got job there but then I just and I thought I'll do my naturopath you know my natural medicine just couldn't do it because the pressure again you know so I left again so I flew back to that family who were spending a lot of time in Italy and LA and and then I ended up moving staying in London for a bit and I spent the whole summer with them in Italy so that I ended up living I was sort of London but then Italy and then I met someone during all of that in Germany. So I ended up moving to Germany to be with him after a while. So I'd spent, I think I spent five summers down in Tuscany with this family, which was amazing. Every summer I'd fly down, even when I was living in Germany, I was like a fly down and you know, so I just kept going, you know. And then when I was in Germany, I went back to uni by distance. So I studied German and went back to uni, but I finished, I did a media degree at that point. So there was always this, but you you don't, that's the thing I think about us Gen Xs. You have that. you double down all the time, you're trying to get things done, however you need to. So I always found ways. So I got my degree, you know, I learnt German, so I got to learn German, got my degree there, you know, did well. Then I got an internship at CNN in London. So he and I both went to London. We both moved to London in 2005, I think it was, because it was five years. So it's a... take you to get the media degree? So because I got credit for some of the stuff I'd already studied at uni, it was quicker and I was doing double time. So I was because I was doing it by distance because a media degree, I think you only get like three or four subjects a semester or something. So I was doing like six and then I was like, so I don't know how long it took me, maybe three years, two years. I don't know. a national campus in Germany or was it? No, just by distance. And like, so back then, I think they sent me tapes? I can't remember how I did it. wasn't computer, even though there were computers, but that still wasn't a thing in school. Okay. off physical assignments, posting them. Yeah. I was dedicated. Like I was, I was a grafter. I was a grafter. Like I could do it, you know? I'm like, yeah. And I was working three jobs. I was working at a pub and I was teaching English as well to business people and I was doing all the stuff. Like crazy stuff. totally. How long did it take you to learn German? I was quick to get conversational, like probably a few months because I worked at an English pub but I refused to speak English. I said I'm speaking German. So I spoke German and my boyfriend was German. So he and I would only speak German when we did things like go shopping or go. So I kind of, and I just studied, like I was studying German. I don't do. 10 hours a week or something, 11 hours, whilst working, I worked at the Sheraton, I worked at an English pub and I taught English to be, so I was doing all that. I mean, it was crazy. Like I think Gen X's are a bit crazy. We would graft, you know? And I did that. And so I learnt because I was integrated. Are you fluent in German? No, not now. Like I lived there two years. I was with that guy for three, five years and I was fine. I was conversational. I could work in German, but my vocabulary wasn't great. And now it's, I mean, I could, if I went to Germany now, I would get around, I would chat, would, you know, do all the stuff, but I wouldn't say I'm not fluent. Still really cool though. During that time, you recall sleeping much? Or sleep a thing? running into a pole once because I was so tired. Because it was all about doing everything like fast as you can to get to the next thing, whether that was earn a stack of money like I did when I was towering roads, you know, do as fast as you can, get the degree, do double time, get the money, get the, you know, and then you can move on. Then I would travel, then I would go, you know, but sort of changed when I went to London. done in survival mode. It's like even like, think even as Gen Xers, like if you're washing, you know, now I've learned how to downshift, but I used to wash the dishes like I'm in survival mode. I'd go do laundry like I'm in, everything was rush, rush, Like, you know, everything you're doing is, none of it's like where you let your nervous system regulate it all. Okay, so you go to London to get the job, take the job with CNN, is that what you said? Yeah, well, we moved there anyway, because I got a visa as an EU partner. So we and so he and I moved there anyway, he got a job there. So I just did a bit of temp work initially was finishing my media degree. And then probably a year in Yeah, I got a job at I got no I got work experience at a documentary company with on Channel four. And then I got offered an internship at CNN. So then I went and did the internship at CNN. But I went back into documentaries because yeah, I just really liked it. And I got offered a job back doing that. So I ended up Yeah, so that was was sort of the first time that I'd sort of landed properly somewhere. Yeah. when you did when you got into documentary work? Did you feel like okay, I found something that um legitimizes my life right now that is I can say look what I'm doing and show show your family or friends or whatever that there's something here. do you do? I produce documentaries. Wow. You know, it's that you're valid. You're all of a sudden you're valid, you know, and it definitely was that. But again, I lived in panic mode, that imposter syndrome. I remember having sleepless nights going, how can I do this? I can't do this. Like I, I'm not good enough to do. Like it was just the same thing came with me again, but it was really good at dinner parties and family gatherings because you can go, you know, I'm, I produced documentaries. Looks great. You know. because it's CNN, the internship was that documentary based? No, so that was just news in general. So I was on the news desk and I did a few feature things and bits and bobs because it was like a wider range. But I didn't really like, because of my nervous system as well, that whole news desk thing of like, you know, I couldn't stress me out. There's documentaries, long form, you sit, you research, you know. So, and also because I was still on that purpose thing, I thought, well, I can do things on religion or I can do things on, you know, so there was, I could see a version of me possibly that might find that satisfaction. in documentaries that I probably wouldn't have. I mean, I don't know, I never had confidence that I would be able to do anything. This was the thing, the theme constantly. Even when I was producing stuff, I was like freaked out. my God, I can't do this. don't Constantly. it was like your little demon that lived on your shoulder. matter what you were doing, it would not allow you to find peace wherever you went. Like as amazing as the experience was, it would not let you embrace it and accept it and be present in it and flourish in it. How long did you do work in documentaries? I think about six years, five, six years. Yeah, so we filmed, well because, yeah, so I ended up, we worked on a lot of stuff for National Geographic, Discovery Channel, BBC, because I worked in, and this is where it kind of all came together and why I moved up quite quickly, because I started, must have been 28, I can't remember when I started. And within a year or so I was assistant producer and then I was producer with this small company quite quickly. I think because I had a science background and because I was older. So that played into everything because they put me automatically on specialist factual stuff. So I was doing history or science. So we were doing stuff. the one in Russia was that these... um science, these bones had been found out in Siberia that they thought might be the Romanov bones. So I don't know if you know the story of the Romanovs and for years they there was this question of whether Anastasia had survived or not and all of that. Yeah so they'd found these bones. So what we used to do you'd read in the newspaper Oh, someone's found the bones. so then my job was, or me and the director, but you know, because it was a small team, we're like, okay, let's try and get access to that. So I'm ringing the scientists and ringing the guy, everyone that was involved because they automatically, there was some part of the FBI, like, I don't know, these scientists, I don't know what the connection was, but they were somehow part of the American government. And so they were going to do all the DNA and all the stuff on this Romanov thing. So I had to get access to that. So I'm ringing them and you know, but that didn't bother me that kind of thing. And yeah, we ended up working on it. We got the access signed off and then we sold it to National Geographic and they paid for the whole production. So then we were working as National Geographic production company. And so we had to fly out to Russia for that, to film and do all the stuff. Yeah, to follow that scientific investigation and the whole thing and talk to everybody. yeah, was really, there's a lot of stories attached to that, but yeah, it was really cool. That was very cool. you say that was out of all the documentaries you worked on, that was the most exciting one? I so, yeah, I found that really exciting. There was a lot, but we, worked on another one for the BBC that was on a, so in the channel, um It was an island called Alderney in the English Channel and there's the ship that was down, the shipwreck um from an Elizabethan era ship. so it was part of the armada and so we did a documentary on that. we were out on the, you know, in a big ship diving and we filming underneath and bringing up what was on there. There was a cannon on there. Then we had to get the cannon reconstructed up in Northern England and, you know, tested it and to see how these cannons would have worked. Firing Rain. That one I found quite interesting as well, it was very hands-on because we were out there on the ship for ages and filming and we went to it was that was fun as well but I did love being in Russia. Yeah lots of things actually there was lots of interesting yeah I went to Switzerland went to Norway filmed a Viking ship in Norway you know lots of things. That's amazing. So the stuff that you produced, is that accessible? Like if we were to look it up, would it be things you've worked on? Yeah, like there's stuff. So I probably, yeah, it's on there, but I worked for production company. So I don't know in terms of my title, you know, but there's some channel four stuff, channel five, National Geographic BBC. Yeah, there's, there's stuff. Yeah. That's pretty cool. is really cool. Have you shown any of that to your children? No. I don't really have it though. Like I do have DVDs. Yeah, I could. I've got some DVDs I could show them. Yeah. That is so cool. That is the coolest. Well, just the stories you could tell them. Your life in general so far is so and I understand. I understand that there's a simmering anxiety and imposter syndrome. There's layers of underneath all this stuff that's sabotaging your experience. But from an outsider looking in, the life experience you've had is really awesome. It's really cool. Yeah, I guess that's thing. And maybe that's what I was trying to construct, you know? So it looked like I'd achieved something without actually having... Do you know what I mean? That's the whole paradox of it. Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. because it's because I'm here to tell you it's really cool and you did achieve it. But I get it. I totally understand the lack of feeling of lack of self-worth and validation in it. But it's really freaking I know he's because that's dream. He would love to do a documentary. I'm so jealous. Yeah. You should do that! Do documentaries! it's on my bucket list, but I've got this thing called time. uh Yeah, finding the time. I will. I will, because I love like filming and photography and cinematography. I'm not so much the storyteller. Like I find that what you're describing that you guys got the cannons out of the water and brought them to northern England to reconstruct the test so you can tell the story. That's pretty that's pretty freaking cool. It's amazing. That's pretty cool. How long did you do that work in documentaries? I think I started at 28 when I went in as a researcher because I just finished my thing I think 28 and then I had my son at 34 and I was supposed to because I was filming this thing in Norway where a Viking ship, we were reconstructing a Viking ship for National Geographic but it was like a long form. I don't even know if ever got finished because I was supposed to film when my son was three months old. We were supposed to go there. So was filming up until I was eight months pregnant. was, cause I was hardcore. just thought there was two things going on. One, was, you know, hardcore. I have to be a career woman, you know, because that's what you should be. um But also there was always this push, this pull of... Like the next step for me would be to take creative control, right? I should, if I'm going to pursue that career really, whereas I outsourced that creative control concept. I didn't want it. I just did this stuff. Even though I ended up with the producer label, I never really put any of my opinion or anything in that. What was your role? Were you filming? Were you the one doing the research to construct the story to give to someone else to film and stitch it together? What was your... kind of everything, because I was working for this small company, so... I initially, when I went with the company, must have been 30 by then, I was the assistant producer and then I became the producer label. But it was just him and I mainly like we had, you know, production secretaries doing, you know, booking flights and doing all that kind of stuff, putting the finances and all that. But he and I did everything. So we'd get the article. Okay, we want to do that. I would ring get access, I would do all the research, find out what's going on, who we need to talk to, sign them up, get them on board, work out what all the interview questions were, how it was going to be. And would be in the background putting the story together, okay how could this all fit as a narrative? um And so then we'd show up and some, it was a big shoot. We'd get like cameramen, you know, we'd have all the people, the camera, but he and I, the director and I would do the interviews um and all that sort of stuff. But then on things like the Viking ship, because it was an observational thing, so it went over a long time. So things like that, it would be us just taking the camera, doing the sound, because you just go in and just do it low budget just to get the shots really. Like it wasn't necessarily about interviews. So I ended up doing a lot of stuff. um the end because yeah the budgets and we're a small company. kind of some hope because you just got to wear multiple hats and you just make it happen and figure it all out. You hustle. You hustle, yeah. That's the theme, you hustle. So, well. absolutely do it. You're doing a podcast. Like, come on. You can do it. But that's what I mean. It's like you did all those things, you wore all the hats, and probably the finished product's pretty damn cool. And none of us, the layman doesn't know what goes into it, and how much time it takes, and the thought, and the energy, and the lack of sleep, and all of that, The coordination. and documentaries as well. it's, you know, the budgets are a lot lower than like a film, like any drama or anything like this. And so you got to work out where to put your money. So you might hire cameraman and sound man and everything for like a big shoot. might line up interview after interview for like a week and you go in and you film stuff. Like we filmed the Canon being done and we had all sorts of things going on. But then for stuff that, you know, okay, we just need shots of this. So you just go in on your own, you you're low, but you might get a researcher to take the camera in or you might go in yourself and you just kind of So you've just got to use your budget wisely, not massive budgets for it. So you got to this point where you were ready to go to the next level, but then you became a mother. So. myself for a long time, not doing creative control of stuff. Like I knew that and I was at the same time and I had been doing sort of four years, three years prior previously studying psychology. So I was working all the hours and doing a psychology degree by distance because I needed purpose. I'm like, okay, well maybe so I was just. because I never allowed myself to think of me. I was always focused on the external. was living as a reaction. Okay, this looks good. This could be good. So I never allowed, so I was always not quite happy. So there was always something spinning that I could go, okay, maybe this is my thing. So I was studying psychology as well. I did three years of the psychology degree and I was nearly ready to graduate. I had got pregnant, so I was like, I can't do everything. But I had my son, I was supposed to film in Norway, you know, for this ship thing, three months pregnant. Yeah, when he was three months. But the moment I had him, it was, I just was like, there is no way. I am going, because I would have had to have a nanny full time, right? Like because my husband works very long hours. He's, you know, executive and wouldn't have been there. Am I before having the child? Yes. I was like, yeah, let's get a nanny, you know, that have to be there overnight sometimes. Cause if I'm flying, you know, whatever, but I'd already during the pregnancy hit this point of everything had kind of come to the front of my imposter syndrome. I thought, can't do it. I can't even imagine, you know, I was already very nervous about my abilities, even though it's just how I was. But when I had him professionally or as a mother? Were you feeling impulsive? Yeah, were you? Okay, okay. What about becoming a mother? Did you ever have, were you having any worries before you had your son? Isn't that interesting? Did you know how many women? How many women though, before having a child though? I mean, that goes off of, that goes off your pattern because you have had, it feels like you did not even before you had him. the imposter syndrome was not seeping into the idea of motherhood, which is very interesting. I think because I was probably raised to be a mom in a way. Well, that was what was modeled to me. So I knew that about me. I think so. I think it was so integral to who I was, you know, and I was the oldest girl, you know, so I had that blueprint. I had a blueprint of something that I knew the steps for. So I think it was different. Maybe. I don't know. Grandma, mom. Yeah. And my aunties, all of them, you know. I had a million role models for that job. You know, I knew what, like, you know, you don't know it really until you step into it, but you know the blueprint. So I think I wasn't worried about that, but I did, I did worry about this, not worry, but in my mind before having my son. I was like, well, I'm just going to go back to work because that's who I am because you don't really have an identity as a mom, right? That's not a thing. So I was this other role. Okay, well, I'm that I've got to be either a psychologist or I've got to do something. But I wasn't quite sure now what that was. But it was never the mom role. But yeah, when I had my son it was that I remember I remember After I had him it was a very long birth, but I had him everyone was gone quite of night And I just remember holding him and I was just crying I'm like there is no like for the first time my whole life. I wasn't anxious I was like this I someone needs me and I'm the only person that can do that job and so that overwhelming sense of peace that I've always wanted Was just there I was like That's the job. Nobody else can do that job. And he can't survive on his own. Someone has to be there. So that sense of purpose was just there, right? And then I had my daughter, she's 17 months younger. um And I did try and work a bit. I kept up and I was going to bloody meetings with him screaming and I was trying to do all this stuff, but. to do it. Yeah. to do it but not very wholeheartedly, you know, I sort of didn't really want to but I thought I need to keep something going on. But then, yeah, then I had my daughter and I was just, it was like, also I had an excuse to not achieve, right? Like the conventional things. And I was so relieved almost. It was like a relief. It was a purpose. It was all the stuff. And I was, and I remember sitting in the kitchen when I had both kids, I had my son walking around and my daughter in the sling. And I was just like, realize, that's the moment I realized that for the first time in my life, I didn't feel panicked because I'd lived with that panic for years. So it was awesome because I could just, had an excuse to be at home because the kids were little. I had a purpose because those are needed, nobody else could do it. I had the blueprint so it wasn't like... I was scared of being a mum. I sort of thought yeah I can do this because I don't know I was brought up in that way you know so but it was when they started to get a bit older everyone starts to question so what do you do you know all that and that's when everything you know all the memories all the pst ptsd comes back of my gosh like I'm not anything like and then then it starts again Like how old were you and the kids when that started coming, seeping back in and disrupting your peace? I think probably when my son started school. So he started at age four in the UK. So yeah, he started at age four. So I would have been 38. No, yeah, 38 maybe. Yeah. amazing? I always find it's I find it interesting when people think that when your kids go to school that um that's automatically when mom is going to possibly start looking for work again or go back to her job when I personally found myself more busy when my kids went to school because they get involved in activities or there's things going on at school. Or then you can finally take care of stuff at home that's been ignored for so long. Or when your kids are sick, you have to be home with them. So you're still needed just as much, if not more, in my opinion. And so that's never aligned for me. Now, maybe when they're older, like high school, I could see that. This is my opinion. But I truly feel that even when they're in school, you're still needed just as much. so that's never, um again, that's never aligned with me that that's when a woman should be automatic, it should automatically be assumed she's going to go back to work. Yeah, I agree, absolutely. Because it is busy. I even find it quite busy now, both in high school um and this. There's a lot of, a lot falls on you, right? You're, you're organizing a lot of stuff, but especially in primary school, because you're facilitating their life still, you know, and you're in touch with the moms, you're in touch, you know, what's going on, you're, who's this, where do you need to go? What do you need to be? What do you need to have at school? You know, there's a lot, it is a full-time job. It's just the hours are not conventional full-time. So, but you, you're spread like across the day in a million different ways. It's, it's busy. Yeah. home manager type of thing. everything. And then also when they do hit that middle school, high school is when you're the therapist. know, if you've been able to figure out how to have open communication with your children, then they come to you with their anxiety, with their worries, with their insecurities, with their problems. These kids were mean to me at school today. And those conversations require so much energy and effort. And sometimes those happen late at night. A lot of children decide, or it's when they feel motivated, to share all their worries at like 10 o'clock at night when you're ready to go to bed. And so there's things that, there's no punch out. It's 24-7-365. And I think, Honestly, our young people would benefit if someone was home more to be there to listen to what's going on in their head. Because I think that's a problem, especially with social media and technology um and the doom scrolling. They're ingesting so much that we don't even know about. so many of they're internalizing so much. just to have the finger on the pulse, somebody needs to be around. to notice the nuances and the changes in your child. Yeah. Yeah. And you catch things before they become a bigger issue. Like you're constantly on the alert, you know, for stuff that's going on. And I think that is a thing, you know, that's also a product of our generation now too, because as mothers, we are more emotionally available because we understand what's going on. You know, whereas the generation before, you know, it wasn't as big a deal. It wasn't a thing that society recognized, but we know it and you can't, once you know it, you can't ignore it. So you're there and the layer of motherhoods become even heavier. it's because it's not that your child's got a thing going on but you're the one to fix it to know about it to find how to solve it. You might want to talk to the school, might want to talk to doctor, you know you're workshopping all the time and you have to be available to them to catch those. I find when they come in it's from school often is a time when you can read the thing. I have a neurodiverse son as well and that's another layer of caring and being there and it doesn't flex around. under nine to five. can't, know, if you need to be there at 10 in the morning because something's gone down or you're there and it's, it's a 24 seven role and it's full time role. And I think we were taught to not validate like that wasn't valid. It just wasn't valid. So we all took on these jobs, which I'm really thankful actually. And I tried to, you know, I wrote a novel, had to have something to say, I'm doing this, I'm busy doing this, but You know, we all took on that because that's what made us valuable, you know, by having an income or by having a job title or whatever. But then we never ever left the other full-time role, which was in the home. So all of us were having mental health crises, you know, just by a product of our birth year, because of the expectations we have on ourselves and the non acknowledgement of the role we never left. know, women left the home, they left the kitchen. but they still carried that role. So now everybody's doing two jobs and it's huge. It's not okay. Yeah. Well, and the conversation, I've said this before, didn't happen on that, you're going to have women join the workforce and as they should. 100 % should have the choice to do that. I'm 100 % believer in that. But if they're going to choose to do that and they're going to have these opportunities, then the domestic home front needs to be addressed too. And their partners need to step up on the domestic home front. You cannot still have expect the woman to do everything she was doing before, as you said, and go to work full time and nothing changes with her partner. You he's still doing the same thing that still I think I do think millennials have done a wonderful. I think they've been the beginning of the shift of that. think that a lot of the millennial younger millennial women, at least, are communicating with their partners of, if I'm doing this and you're doing this, this isn't how or else I'm staying. Yeah. Gen Z women will be a huge part of that, but I think we don't talk about it enough in society at all. But I think, yeah, we don't talk about it enough. And I think the other thing is, it's a whole systemic problem, right? Because we exist in a patriarch. And what happened when women, you know, 60s, 70s coming out of the kitchen, going into the workforce, they moved into the workforce in a patriarch. I mean, we even put on the bloody shoulder pads to have big shoulders like men. You know, we put the trousers on, off we go. You know, we walked in as men into this world, into this patriarch system that allows for the way things function as men and whatever, and without a family and without a, because that was kind of not involved in the workplace at all. Whereas what we should have done, like if you look back in hindsight and how it should change, is we should have walked in as women and fought for the right to, for the working world to accommodate this other life, you know, because even now you go in and I know some families who are pretty good at 50-50 split, but it's still a juggle because the demands of the patriarch, the demands of the system we work in that's been evolved for men who don't have to do anything at home is a structure that really makes it difficult because it doesn't acknowledge like different working hours or less load. Maybe you can still be paid a certain amount but for doing things less or we should change it completely. I don't know what the solution is but what would it look like if we'd entered a matriarch? And there was all these roles and because what's happening is the monetary reward for your work is based on being there a lot and being a high role and being this. And money's the currency, we all need it unfortunately. So even things like, so my husband earns enough so that can cover all of our expenses but because he earns... a lot he pays a hell of a lot in tax but he couldn't earn that money without me picking up all the other slack and so even little things like that where his income should be taxed as if it was two people rather than one would make a difference right? I mean there's a lot of stuff that we could change to make this work better but we have plugged ourselves in shoulder pads and all into a patriarch and now we're trying to find the best way around it which means yeah okay we have to share the loaded home we have to split things, but the system's still demanding that workload from us, regardless of whether dad and mum are now juggling school pickups, dad and mum are now juggling meals. You know, like it's nothing's giving in that perspective. And I think the system needs to change as well as we need to change. But I feel like the system needs to change. Do you know? No, yeah. No, I think it's absolutely such a great point. And I think um it's weird because when you were talking about that, almost brought me to thinking about how if you allow women to be in their feminine, they're more powerful, right? You're going to get um so much more if women are embraced and they're feminine. And within the patriarchy, they're not allowed to be in their feminine. They're supposed to be in their masculine. And that's where lot of the friction comes from, is if it was restructured and women could be in their feminine within their employment and their job, they would thrive even more and the business would benefit from that, if that makes sense. it's almost like... Yes, yes. It's valuing those soft skills. Yes, yes, But yeah, could have women can be in that same room with men, but if they're allowed to be in their feminine, they may get even more done. or be more successful. And I don't know if spaces, to your point, is being created yet. I don't know if we're even close. to exist as women still. I don't think. I feel like the workforce rewards masculine behavior. You know, I think if you're decisive, if you're, you know, all those things, you know, that still feels quite rewarded. Whereas all that stuff. that women bring to society. mean, society couldn't function without all the things women do. You know, the way we bring people together, you know, we facilitate so many things. We're the ones, if a neighbor's sick, that's taking them a dinner because they can't, you know, make it themselves. Or we're the one in the office, if there's someone who's a bit off, we'll check in with them, we'll notice it. So a lot of our energy goes to that stuff, but that's not valued, but that's the glue that actually does hold a lot together. And now there's more of us in the workplace we should be able to monetize that kind of because money is the currency I mean it's it's sad but it kind of is we all need it and that's why we work and that's why we achieve and that's all that that's the way it is unfortunately but a lot of the things if we step into our feminine I think you lose money because it's not valued. So it's taking you too much time to go and check in on everyone's mental health and make sure everyone's, you know, okay. It's taking time off what the goals are and what the progress is of things. And so it's not valued in the right way. It's a fascinating thing because there's no value in what you're describing. No perceived value today for someone to be the caretaker in some ways, the glue in a sense. That's not valued at all, at least not here in the US. I am curious, is it different at all in Australia? We're fairly cut and dry here. We're offshoring most of our jobs to India and other... cheaper labor markets. You guys have that same thing going on there. We have a lot of women in the workforce and they are valuable. I would say honestly they are. At least in corporate America, they're viewed as equals, right? But I'm curious, is it like that in Australia? I don't know. I've been to Europe. I've done business in like in Germany and France, the Netherlands and the UK. UK is probably the most egalitarian culture over there, think, whereas there's definitely a patriarch in France and Netherlands, probably Germany. Yeah. Yeah, think we're like England, I think, you know, women are very much equal in the workplace, well represented. mean, I'm sure it's not equal. There's still a lot of fighting going on to get that exact status. But yeah, but generally, you know, if you walk into a workplace, there's women in leadership roles, there's all the stuff going on and it is. But I think the thing that's lacking is just a much broader systemic issue of, so women can now be in those roles, but those roles are still quite masculine role. know, they're still valid, you know, the wage you get that's a high wage is based on that same kind of output and markers, you know, I don't know. I don't know, like the way society works, the people that the moms that are at home holding it together, picking up the elderly or the sick or dropping the kids or, you know, making sure people are talking, things are harmonious, things that, know, all those things women do quite well. I just don't, that's not really a part of it. There's two things. There's the work world that gets paid. And then there's this other world that people have to try and operate, even moms that are in the office, you know, and I don't know how that, I don't know how that changed. I don't know how you can change that because money is what counts. right? And things that that generate money you get paid for and so that's you know women in the system but not as that woman I suppose. in like, even in like Australia, do you... I'm curious, for us here, I'll call it say service sector type of job, but whether it's a, you're working at a restaurant or you're the wait staff or in a hotel, you're the, what is it? The concierge or the front desk person? All of those people, they're not paid nearly as that well compared to say executive, corporate executive jobs. Is it similar in Australia? It like so, right? Yeah, it has to be. and I think that's just a product, you know, I guess because to be an executive, have to have a certain amount of stress level, I guess you're, you know, you're carrying staff, you're Yeah, oh that's always what's, you know, made income, you know, the way it is and structured the way it is, I suppose. But, you know, those people that are like waiting table, it's, they're still putting in a lot of energy to do that, but it's lower, you know, but it's, yeah. You know, but you've talked about like women in the workforce, how they're not compensated for their female attributes, which is basically nurturing. Everything you were talking about is our nurturing qualities, whether you're checking in with a colleague, whatever it is, they're getting all that for free, right? The company's getting that for free because we give that naturally. We are a faucet of it. So if, so we are the glue and we are the nuance, the feminine nuance is sprinkled through the company and we affect our coworkers and all that. That's free to the company. And to your point of if there was a way to recognize the attributes women bring into the workforce that are completely feminine and completely different from what men bring, um that would be a way to, to even it out because it is nuanced, but it's powerful. And imagine if space was created for women to truly be in their feminine in the workforce. I don't think companies realize they would be so much more successful. Absolutely, they would be much more successful, but it's not quantifiable and it's no one understands it because we've never had it. We've lived through a patriarchal lens forever. It's kind of even hard for some people to grasp that concept of those skills that we bring that are unpaid for and kind of invisible. It's the same skills we bring to home. Yeah. to your point. The construct is not that's not the construct. No women showing up nurture. That's not a thing. It's not trying. No, I'm just saying women, but not all women nurture. What I think you're describing and I tend to agree with is that women are fitting into that patriarchy. So they're leaving that at the door in a sense. And if you bring it in, it's not valued. It's not it doesn't. It may be viewed as a weakness also. You know, maybe used against them. yes. Yeah. Well, that's the thing, because it doesn't fit the narrative that doesn't fit the mold, I suppose. You know, but I don't think it's very hard. It's hard. Yeah. And it's hard for us to even picture that, right? What does it look like if it's not a patriot? even as a woman with those skills, we don't value them. Like you don't think how can you even imagine in your mind? that part of your wage includes that ability you have to nurture. Like it doesn't even feel right in our minds because we're products of the system too. So it's like, how do you... women can be women's worst enemy. You first need women to buy in. know you think that. Women need to buy into this. He always says, guys are your worst. And when it really comes down to it, yeah, there are less girls girls than girls girls. And Gen X women were not raised to be girls girls. We were raised to compete with each other for men, number one. uh Beauty, number two, and then employment. Our daughters are girls girls because we've made sure to most of them we've you know, and they are their their girlhood is Amazing the gen z women girlhood and as I love to see it. It's a beautiful thing But we weren't given that space to even Like support each other in any way and that's part of the patriarchy We and society with the stupid bullshit beauty standards Pits us against each other, You know, that would be the first and maybe this this younger generation of women will be the first to because they are Are you seeing that in australia because we do see girls But more girl power here with the younger girls. Are you seeing that as well? think so. don't mean my daughter's 13. So it's hard to know how that's going to play out, but definitely. Yeah. She's got a very strong connection with her girlfriends and they come first. And there's definitely all of that. I don't know. I mean, I know when we were that age and it was like, as you say, you're competing for attention from boys. You're competing to be chosen as the one and you know, and you were pitted against each other. I don't see that. And I don't know if that's cause she's too young, but I'm hoping like. as you're saying that it's going to play out very differently. No, no, because her age is when it really goes crazy. Like the mean girl stuff in that eighth grade, sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth grade age is when you would totally be seeing it. No. Like they compliment each other. Like my daughter will tell me how they'd be at a bar and they'll tell a girl how beautiful she looks or she loves. We'd be like, what is she wearing? Or like she looks better. Oh look at her eyelashes! Now, not, not, I know everything isn't perfect. I know there's still that exists, but there has been a shift and I think it's a beautiful thing. And maybe they will be the beginning of a shift with this, with the patriarch, because they're very anti-patriarchy too. So, um... You need to... I think women need to lead the shift. You do. Absolutely. I even trying, mean, obviously it started with... fighting to get women in the I think it'll be an organic thing over time. It's an evolutionary thing. Yes. it's just not fast and it's, you know, takes a while. It will. I hope that they're the beginning of the change. But I think GenX moms are a huge part of that, you know, in supporting them and, you know, but validating stay at home moms has to occur. And there was this huge shift. It does. There was a shift to validate women going back in the workforce. And I get that. The pendulum had to swing away from the 1950s housewife. And that's all you do. We had to shift it. But we got to bring it back. And we have to value the stay at home mom as not a threat to working moms. We we've been pitted. That's another area they've pitted us against each other. Working moms against stay at home moms that we're judging them and they're judging us. And that's bullshit, too. So there we have a lot of work. to do coming together as women before we can even take on this stuff with men, in my opinion. no, I agree because I always felt like that. Like I always felt like, okay, everyone's judging me because I'm a stay at home. I had to constantly validate myself. But then you talk to, you know, the women who are full time working and they feel judged because they're not there for their kids. So everybody's feeling judged. Nobody's good enough. No matter what decision you make, it's not the right one. You know, but I think it starts with this concept that I have with the male earner, like my husband earning everything and me being at home and us both being like valid as part of that income. And so therefore we're taxed as two people. think starting somewhere like that is really acknowledging the work that we do. that's starting to validate it, right? Because nothing validates it. Nothing validates all that work that goes on at home. There's no income for it. There's no cheers for it. There's no rewards. There's no titles. There's no nothing. Um, it's just seen as nothing. Whereas little steps. like that where if they could go okay because you're at home 24 7 he can be out of the house 12 hours a day and he can totally focus on that job so therefore he can bring in enough income to cover two people but he wouldn't be able to do that if it wasn't for you doing this actual massive job and so if you could say okay that income is taxed as two people bringing it in that type of thing would start to make a shift because you're acknowledging a workload that's not at not acknowledged at all and there's no income for that theoretically it's like the government go we'll pay you to be a housewife so that's quite difficult but you could say okay the tax bracket covers two people because he couldn't do that if I wasn't doing this so it's like well we're both part of that income so it's little shifts like that yes, because right now it's free labor, right? That's how it's viewed. It's free labor. If you really get down to it and if you aren't with a partner who views the money he makes as your money, because not every partner views it. A lot of partners that are the breadwinners are like, that's my money and then I'll give you part of this money. Like they play that game. But they've had the privilege of being able to pursue their career with zero worries about what's going on in the home front. The home front is covered so they can go and climb this ladder, whatever they're doing, right? And make the money. But the partner has to say, we are a team and this is our bank account and this is our money. And yes, we will make decisions together, but this isn't my money. If that's not acknowledged, then that has to be acknowledged first. That's step one. Same. Yeah. gets penalized. So we know people, you know, who are earning half as much as him, but it's coming from two, like two incomes. So they pay so much less tax and then the after tax income is kind of similar. And it's like, well, that's not fair because that's just, you know what I mean? Yeah, interesting, because we have a concept of. uh What the hell is it? It's um like a head of household. It's joint filing when you file your taxes with the federal government, you file as a as a couple. It is a joint filing. we don't have that it's an individual filing so what you'll have is even though like say you've got two people earning and their joint income might be half his our take home could be similar to theirs because once you earn over x amount you start paying you know 50 % tax or whatever and so therefore our take home is a lot less because it's only on one person so saying he's earning all of that whereas Okay, so is what she's talking about though, is that occurring when we file though? Is what me being home being quantified in any we do, you you get, we have our tax system is honestly, our tax system is better than the rest of the world in that sense, in that we do get to take home more income than everywhere else. I don't know what your top tax bracket is, but ours, you almost assume you're in the federal government's taking a third. then the more you make on top of that, there is a progressive tax and they take more, right? But we do get to say, we get to choose like number of dependents. So you get deductions. You know, say I make $1,000, I might get a deduction for $100 for one kid. I get a deduction for myself, for her. now, so you start to get some deductions. It's not... Yeah, totally. 100%. Yeah, okay. to choose as two, we file as two people together. So it's different. as an individual and therefore... You get no credit for you or the kids. That's crazy. So he doesn't even get to claim your kids as dependents? No. If you earn X, you're taxed X. That's it. As far as I understand. In our state of Florida, we pay no state tax. Yeah. Other states like California, I think is 10 to 13 percent. New York is 10, 13 percent. New Jersey. On top of. Yeah. Florida doesn't have one, neither does Texas. That's why so many people are moving here. We do probably have one of the best. As much as we bitch about it, we do have one of the best tax. constructs and probably in the world. You know, in the developed, you know, the UK taxes people like crazy France, all of Europe, Australia. Yeah. Yeah. So what's what she's referring to? Is that already happening? can't imagine that's such a penalty. No, but like, is it acknowledging me home? Our tax does. Yeah, we file jointly. We take both of our incomes. and then we file as one unit. yes but but your taxes bracket like so so say if you earn 50 000 um you're taxed at 20 but if you earn 100 000 you're taxed at 50 for example then as a person so if you're getting 100 000 but there's two of you that's taken as 50 50 so you're still only taxed at 20 do you what i mean I think so, yeah. It's almost like, yeah. So say if I made a hundred thousand and she made a hundred thousand, we were now filing with the federal government for 200,000. And it would probably be, yeah. But combined income for two people and then whatever dependence we have. So then it would get lowered down. in how many people are earning that and as a stay-at-home mum you're counted as that earner kind of Okay. Yeah. Okay. But the rest of the progressive then, because we're definitely not. Like he's taxed, so if he earns 100,000 and 100,000 hits a 50 % bracket, he's taxed at 50%. And the fact that I'm at home allowing him to achieve that doesn't come into it. Nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No way. It's crazy. Like I say, we for me as far as our filing taxes. no, you have to assume if you leave this country, 50 % of your income has gone to the federal government. And that's crazy. Then you go to Europe and you're paying a VAT. Do have a VAT there? on good no, well, we have a GST depending what you buy goods and services tax, which is a bit different. But yeah, so yeah, it's yeah, you pay what that at the till you pay a different tax, but it depends where you live like Yeah. like we have a lower tax. I don't know whether ours is one of the highest or whatever, but yeah, from a certain level, you're paying 50 % tax. And so if one person gets to that, then you're paying 50 % tax. But then under that, you know, it's progressive, like you were saying, you know, if you earn 10,000 a year, you might only pay 15, you know, it's like a progressive thing. But because it's counted as one person, then it doesn't. country that acknowledges head of household? I wouldn't do that. Yeah. does. mean there's other countries. Germany is different in that way. Their taxes were. Monaco doesn't have a tax. think really that's why a lot of those F1 drivers. Oh that makes sense. Well that makes sense. Yeah what you're saying. No that's yeah. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah of them, but that's one thing that you could change. I you guys are already doing it, but we could change that. And then at least you'd value your role a bit more. Like it helps towards acknowledging the value of that role. Like how that role helps society. yeah. 100%. One thing we've had here, feels like, know, Australia, the US are very similar paths in terms of the cultural evolution of things uh and the same challenges and stuff. has your family unit over time then started to diminish because of the financial pressures for for two people to go out and work. Like here in the US, at the family units, really kind of a lot of pressure on it for both moms and dads, know, husbands, wives, both partners to go out and get jobs. Now we pay for health care. I mean, for childcare and are you guys in the, you have to be in the same situation, right? Australia, mean? there's a lot of to two income families, know, lot of both parents have to go out to work. And I guess that means, yeah, the mums at home less and the kids, you know, it's probably less dinners around the table and a lot more stress. And absolutely, I think. And I think also the shift and I don't know if I mean, this is probably globally. I don't know. And it could be it's culturally though as well. But a lot of us don't live near our family. Right. You don't live near. I don't live by my parents. I don't live there's not even that kind of like, like I see it with my sisters, right? Cause they both live up in the countryside still with my mom. And when their kids were little, like one sister would be there if the, if, you know, if she wasn't or my mom would be there and they could all help out with the kid. And so there was still that broader family unit, you know, it might not have been the nuclear, but they were still, my sisters worked in the schools so they could do the same hours as the kids and stuff. So they were around a lot anyway, but at least you had that kind of next layer of family that were around. we're pretty much going on alone like you know you're down here and so if both both are working there's not a grandma or an auntie that might go I'll I'll be there for dinner I'll get you help out or I'll you know so you sort of lost that layer as well so whilst the nuclear family operates differently because people are so busy and stressed you don't get the chance for that kind of around the dinner table but I think I mean we live in a bit of a bubble the part of Melbourne I live in side it's I don't know it's don't know it's kind of different I feel like everyone's got this sort of rosy family thing going on but it's harder to maintain like a lot of the time you come home and you haven't got time for dinner around the table or you're eating in front of the TV or you're doing whatever so it's it is different like when we grew up though because dad was a builder he was home at four you know he'd play cricket in the backyard with my brother or do things and we'd be helping mum with the food and then we'd eat it as a family and then we might go off from you know so was very It was different, you you were in each other's lives in a different way. Yeah, it's like that here too. It definitely has changed like that. Well, so you mentioned that you wrote a novel. ah Is that something that's still for... Did you get it published? No, so I have an agent. So I wrote it. It was a half-hearted effort to do something, right? So I was like, okay, I've got to be doing something. So I thought, I'll write, I'll do that. So I did write this novel, which I just before COVID got an agent for. I haven't got it published, but I had to change it a lot and COVID struck and I was home with the kids. Because in Melbourne, you know, we were locked down more than anyone in the world. So we were locked down for nearly two years. It was full on with both the kids. and the confidence thing again I didn't want to put it out there I was so nervous and no one's read it my husband hasn't read it so what I did in COVID I wrote a second novel after that I started writing a second novel so the second novel I actually really like and I finished it just when I had a lot of trouble with my son he stopped going to school grade five after COVID. We two years locked down and then we had that. So I kind of abandoned it. It's an interesting journey because initially I started it to prove I was doing something. So that was my first novel. I'm just going to, no confidence. But second one is actually a concept I really like and it's tied to a lot of stuff that I really would like to and I quite like it. It's finished. Well, it's not finished. It needs to be edited. I've got the fit, but it sat there. It sat there now for the two years I was helping my son. He was hired, doing all the stuff. And then Aileen and I started the podcast because I had no, I was too nervous to get my novel. edited almost because I'm like then I got to publish it I said that imposter scene I just can't you know I was easy to write I write it in like few months did you did you do you know but anyway so it's out there but since her and I started doing the podcast and since I've hit post menopause so I the perimenopause period was full of anxiety and rain fog and all the crap going on right old were you, do you think, when you hit Perry? 38. I reckon I was young. Okay, yeah, no, no, they can hit us at starting around 37. So that's 38. So how did you know? Did you know you were in Perry? Or did you think you were just going crazy? Thought I was crazy. I thought it was crazy. I was exhausted all the time. I couldn't remember things. I had asthma. I had all this stuff, you know, and the doctors were testing me for diabetes. I mean, all this stuff, right? Nobody knew anything was going on. And I moved to Australia at that time as well. So I came to Australia. I was 41. So yeah, just I'd been going through it and then I got to Australia and then yeah, it was terrible. My mental health was, I didn't want to come back. Can you imagine coming back to Australia after all those years? How traumatic that was for me to now live here as a stay at home mom. So not only was I not having a label anymore, I was back in my country. So I wasn't abroad, all this stuff. So you can imagine the mess of, you know, perimenopause plus that and then COVID hit, you know. it a year or two after your daughter? So my daughter was four when we moved here. Yeah, my son was six. And then so you're going you've moved back your stay at home mom which that's not giving you that validity to the from to the outside you feel at peace with your being a mother but that that um anxiety is creeping in and then you're hitting perimenopause so that's just going to amplify all the things and then COVID hits and you guys were totally locked down. Totally locked down. And we were going to head back then actually, we were going to go back to the UK then, which I was like, oh, thank God. I don't have to worry about the pressure anymore. But then yeah, lockdown. And so we stayed. So here we are. yeah, so it's a total disaster. Like perimenopause plus all of that, you can imagine. Was it? Yeah. do? I know when I was going through Peri and I didn't know, I was a functioning alcoholic. Like I would have a drink or two every night just to like deal with the stress of I did high schooler, I a middle schooler and I had a four year old. And I'm in my 40s and I am unknowingly going through peri-menopause and I think I'm going crazy. So I would have like a glass of wine or two a night for like 10 years. You know, looking back now, like I was, that's how I coped with it. I didn't have COVID because we're in Florida. We were locked down two months. you know, a little different. did you have any coping, not knowing you were perimenopausal and you had all that stuff going on, did you fall onto any coping mechanisms? Not well, I drank every night anyway, because I'd have my husband and I will always drink a couple of glasses a night. So that was my, you look forward to that at the end of the night, but I didn't sleep a lot. Went into huge anxiety. I talked, that's what I was talking to Aileen a lot, my podcast co-host, you know, her and I, she was in London, she was in Spain at the time, every day leaving like half an hour voice messages. We'd pick it up. And so we, had that out as I talked a lot. But, but the thing is you're talking about stuff as if you think you're crazy. You don't talk about stuff as if, I'm going through perimenopause. I'm feeling this. You're like, my god look this is a disaster and that's a disaster you know you're in the drama because you think it is a drama because you you're just going with it right and then i went on an uh anxiety pills that's when it helped i started to take anxiety medicine that that helped a lot because i was like huh okay you know so i got through it in all sorts of ways i suppose and i don't know you just do yeah i had a drink i took anxiety meds i you know and then by the time they suggested i might need hrt I had already just had blood clots. We'd been in Cambodia the year before and I'd sprained my ankle, had these blood clots and stuff. So then they said, don't go on HRT because I had the blood clots, you know, so at that time anyway, and then I got through it. think, I reckon two, two years ago, two and a half years ago, because I, yeah, all of a sudden, all of a sudden, I don't know if you experienced this, but because I couldn't do anything, didn't want to get my book out there. I was still anxious about everything and nerve, you know, all the stuff was amplified. All the stuff over all those years was like, double down on and yeah it's crazy and so I thought okay I'm gonna do something and Aileen and I decided to start the podcast okay all of a sudden just before that I felt confident not confident wasn't confident I didn't care what people thought all of a sudden I was like I don't care so it's it was a liberating experience and then her and I said the podcast with no idea what we wanted it to be about but now we've totally moved into the self-worth area because we've both been victims of that whole thing of putting your self-worth on external things, know, and defining success by money and by whatever. you know, so it's all become, it's become that journey, you know, but it was just that post-menopause, I think, hit and all of a sudden, I don't know, did you experience that? I was just like, I don't really care. It doesn't matter. Yeah. is it just went away. And that's the hormone that makes us want to nurture and take care of everybody except ourselves. And so once that's gone to be blunt, uh blunt, you don't give a fuck anymore. You have no more fucks to give. And you're like, I don't care. I'm going to take care of myself. I'm done. Like I woke up one day and was like, I'm not cooking. You cannot. I'm not cooking dinner. And I do still randomly. But I was cooking Sunday through Thursday for 30 years. And I woke up one day and was like, no, I'm done. And so now when I cook, it's because I want to. And I was never a takeout person except Friday and Saturday. But I'm like, I don't care. And it's that I don't give a fuck anymore. I'm going to focus on. I think so many GenX women, menopause is a tool that gives us the permission to finally self-prioritize. and focus on ourselves downshift, look around, breathe, and actually consider who am I, what do I want, where am I at? Unfortunately, though, it does can take a beating on our health, we have to take our health into consideration and our hormonal health. So it's the balance of dealing with our hormonal health, but still holding on to that confidence and that um and that strength for ourselves, reclaiming our energy. So it's that that balance, did go on HRT and that helped me level out. That helped me level out. And if I'm not on it, I do get hot flashes still. um I have trouble sleeping still. The progesterone helps with that. And the testosterone helps with libido. So I do still need, I need something or else I'm still wacky and I am post-menopausal. I don't have any more, my estrogen went. So they said I'm menopausal now, but I, I I'm amazed that you went through it without any hormonal help. I don't know how you did it. I'm amazed. well... I know. mean, for years I lived on Red Bull as well. That was my other thing. Because if I had to get something, because I was a grafter, I was a genetics grafter. I'm like, I've got to write this novel. I've got to do this. So usually about three in the afternoon, I was like tanking and no energy. Even when I had the kids in London, they were little and even just to get through. So I was I had Red Bull in the fridge. I was like, get a Red Bull and then I've got an hour in me. I've got an hour I can focus and I can do this. So that's how I got through it. I like in a way functioning and then when the anxiety got bad, then I went in the anxiety medicine and that kind of helped and then I was coming out the other side. So I mean even now you know could go on HRT because they've realized that my blood clots aren't a product of that kind of the same mechanism so would have been okay but now I'm feeling good you know I don't I don't get hot flushes I don't have brain fog I don't I mean my anxiety is up and down I still take that because I've been an anxiety sufferer forever so that's something I should have been on years ago. anyway. But otherwise, yeah, don't really have anything. So I'm like, well, if I go on HRT now, does that mean I just get other hormonal stuff might come back? So I'm a bit nervous. Do you know what I mean? Like, because I feel fine. I'm like, if I bring it in. Yeah, I get now I totally get what you're saying. The only reason I would suggest you even like even meeting with an endocrinologist to talk about it, or I don't know, in Australia, like, we can get hormones through endocrinologists through our OBGYN. And then there's just hormone specialists. But it does they are finding that women who are on HRT, it's helping prevent Alzheimer's and dementia is protected. The estrogen protects the brain. and it protects the heart and it protects the organs and the bones and the ligaments. So health-wise, they're saying like women should always be like, just stay on it, even into your older years. And then also, I also have estrogen vaginal cream. Now I had surgery, so that's part of my post-op care, but I'll always be on that because they say as women get older, they're more prone to UTIs as the tissues in our vaginal wall. change because of the lack of estrogen and UTIs then a lot of women die in their elder years from untreated UTIs. And so they're saying for your vaginal health use estrogen and those are two different that stays localized. It doesn't go into the blood like how the patch just something I just like to bring it up and always put it out there that even if you're not symptomatic, there's still other uh benefits. Well, that's, no, I absolutely agree. And I've explored it a few times with my doctor. I'm just always nervous because of my ability to go up and down with like when I was even on the pill, I had to go off the pill because it was a nightmare. had so many, got severe depression from one pill. Like hormones have always been really tricky for me. And I think, cause I spent 10 years in this perimenopause hell without knowing about it. And I finally feel good. I'm like, oh, okay, what if I go on? I'm just nervous. And I've spoken to her lot about it because I agree this, because I've got osteopenia. So, you know, if I'd been on HRT, maybe I wouldn't have developed that, you know? And so now I'm treating that. But yeah, I definitely need to address it, but I'm just so nervous because for the first time in 10 years, I feel normal. And I'm like, can I just not mess with that for a while? no, and I hear young enough still because how old are you now? Right now. OK, you're not quite I'm I'm 55. So you still have some room to like sit back to you. could. Yeah. There's so much information to to research and everything. But now that you've gone through 10 years of perimenopause and you're on the other side of it, what advice would you give to millennial women who are either have that on the horizon or may even be in the midst of perimenopause and don't even realize it yet. What would be some advice you would give? I just think don't put up with feeling crap. You know, if anything feels crap, whether it's you're tired, whether it's, you know, you can't think properly or you're emotional or you've got pain, like just don't put up with anything because I think that's what, especially Gen X's, we learn to just put up with stuff, right? You did. So even all these symptoms, I'm like, okay, I'll just work it out. I'll get through. And I think regardless of what you're feeling, everyone should feel good. And if you don't, you know, deal with it. find out why because we shouldn't not feel good you shouldn't not be functioning you know whether that's from hormones or anything but especially with the hormones because it's such a ride it's such a ride and you need help to get through that we have modern medicine we're able to sort it out you know and just don't put up with stuff don't put up with not feeling good I think that's that's the thing I wish I'd sort of told myself Yeah, no, I think that I wish somebody would have said to us, you have a right to thrive, not just exist, not just survive, but you have a right to thrive. so own that, own that and get things checked out. Even if it's your thyroid, your hormone, you don't need to grind through it. You have a right to thrive, not just survive. And I think that's a message that I, as a Gen X woman, really try to get out to the younger women. Yeah. And put it out in the workplace as well. You know, I don't think it should be that, you know, you've got, cause I know some friends who nearly quit, one did quit her job because she's just too foggy or too, you know, whatever. Put it out there in the workplace. think the workplace has to be normalized that we go through this crap and it's, we're still the same smart person, you know, but just we're not quite there yet for whatever reason. We need the help we need to change. And that, that way they might start forming roles around, you know, how we function. differently in perimenopause. Talk about it. Tell the workplace. Don't put up with anything. Don't put up with feeling inferior because you can't think today. I think you have to speak about it. That's part of a step of changing that patriarchy we were talking about. There's an example right there. There's an example. So when did you meet Aileen? I met Aileen, um I was pregnant with my son, I didn't know I was pregnant, but her and I met at my husband's friend's birthday party. So she was friends with my husband's friend. So he knew, my husband knew her longer before I knew it. Yeah. So we met and we just clicked straight away. We were in this park, you know, and just, and weirdly that day we were chatting, like really connected. You know, when you meet someone and you're just like, you know, you've got... All the same, you've got all the things. And we were sitting chatting and literally a branch fell out of a tree because my husband kicked a ball into the tree. Hit my head, split my head, blood flooded down and I passed out ambulance stitches, all the stuff. gosh. Wow. Crazy. And then I didn't end up seeing Aileen again until my son was born because we were going to catch up and all the stuff. then, yeah, we met up when my son was born because she was off. She just retired from her job and was going off to Asia. We chatted then, but because I was in motherhood and everything, and then randomly when I was pregnant with my daughter, she sent me an email, but to the wrong person, to another Julie. And so then we ended up, I'm like, oh, wrong person. but hey, how are you? And then we found out we were pregnant and then we just wrote everyday long emails back and forth. She moved to London, had her daughter, our daughters were born a day apart. So we hung out and then, you know, she moved and then we just voice messaged every day. We just, it's just that, yeah, connection. So it's nice. Yeah. then when did you guys decide to create the You Keep Me Saying podcast? about 18 months ago, so not long, not long ago. We just, we're voice messaging every day and we said, let's just kind of have these chats on a podcast. So that was our first thing, cause she wasn't working. I wasn't really like, okay. And mean, we're getting more serious about it. Like we're honing in on self like the what we've had, like people write to us about self worth. I think it's a massive theme for a lot of women our age. I realized their worth has been pegged to things outside of them for a long time and sort of, so we're sort of honing into that now. But initially it just started with like, let's just, let's just chat. We're doing it. I don't know. And it's helped us a lot transition from being at home to go, okay, we're doing something. And yeah, so it's, good. is your platform going to mainly focus on Gen X women or women in midlife and that experience? It's more midlife, yeah, definitely. But it's about self-worth. I think it's about, and it probably will resonate with different categories of women naturally, because it's sort of focusing on those pain points of, know, where you doubt yourself, you regurgitate a decision you've made over and over. The things that we all do that indicate low self-worth, you know, we just want to help people understand that and shift that, shift that. value of yourself that's external onto internal. So it's just talking about that a lot and why that happens and helping people understand how to build that. How much do you think um as women, and I'm gonna speak for Gen X women, because we're the ones in midlife, although the older millennial women are too, um how much do you think downshifting and regulating our nervous system and getting out of fight or flight and finally breathing and being instead of doing, how much do you think that is? pivotal at this point in our lives right now into finding success into the next stage we're heading into. I think it's hugely pivotal. think that that's what we need to do to actually try to live in society as us because we haven't been, you know, and to be able to bring to the fore all of the amazing things we have to offer, which we've never valued. We've never valued who we inherently are. We've only valued what we can do that fits into a system that we didn't actually create, you know? So I think it's a massive part of that process. bringing us back to valuing who we are as individuals, what we can offer the world, because we don't value it. Nobody values that, you know, in our generation, especially. It's like this abstract role. But I think that can be challenging though, right? If we've been in roles or had imposter syndrome for most of our life or been grinding through our childhood and most of our adult life, the challenge of finding out who we are authentically, I think, can smack a lot of women in the face of, holy crap, I don't even know who I am right now. It's so disorientating because you don't know, you know, you've, and that's the moment I hit when I was with my kids in the kitchen, you know, when they're a bit older, my son had gone to school. It was always in the kitchen. So all these, these moments I have where I remember things, I'm always visualizing myself doing this. I'm like, oh, you know, when I was trying to scramble for validation in some way, like, cause I hit a moment where I'm People are like, what you do? What do you do? Where are you going? What's your job? And then it hit me that moment I thought, my God, I don't even know. Because I feel like I've got to tell people I'm this, that, and the other, but actually I have no idea what it is that I bring to the table as a person, as a person without any of that. And that was the moment where I realized I'd existed as an idea based on these markers, whether they're a title or an experience or whatever it represented me that was very much outside. me. I had zero idea who I was, what I actually thought, what I actually cared about and that that was valuable actually. You know and I think most of us we exist as a reaction to the world all the time and so you're living in this external place all the time and when you start to shift that and go okay hang on a minute I don't have that marker to tell me who I am or what matters about me anymore. you sit in a void and it's very disorientating and it's I think a lot of people might not face it I don't know but I think what's brilliant is with the Gen X women that we it hit crunch time you know we went through the eye of the needle right because we had to face it we found ourselves with families with jobs with everything going on hormones in the mix because we had kids older so we went through perimenopause while our kids were still running around and doing all the stuff and so we totally went through the eye of the needle so it's forced us to look at it in a way and we're like whoa hang on so So in a way, the momentum for it and the strength to do it comes from being in that pressure situation as well. So we actually probably are more able to do it than some other generations because we got broken. That makes such sense is that in a way we've always been functioning, high functioning under pressure. And so the pressure of having to go on a healing journey because to find our authenticity, we will be the generation that actually will do it because we thrive under the pressure of doing anything. So we're like going through a healing journey, facing your trauma. You can do it! unlearning what you've been programmed through your whole life. Unlearning. That's a, you're either going to do it and live authentically in a healthy way in this next phase of your life, or you're going to continue to grind. And as you say, live externally, not internally. Well, you just die too. And then, and then you may. That's what I mean. just die. You get sick and it's done because. version of yourself and you're sick. Yeah. But so in a way though, the pressure was the gift, right? In a way, like looking back, the pressure was the gift. that we can now live totally, we have the choice now because we've got broken, right? So you either get broken and you look at all the pieces in their form and choose which ones you want to actually take with you next. And you can make that decision consciously because we got broken, know, nothing, things are made under pressure. Diamonds are made under pressure, you know? And so we had the gift of that pressure. And so we can make the choice now, whether we take that shattered self and go, okay, I'm going to actually choose differently. And we can do that. Yeah, some won't. Yep. They'll be. know, go back and reform with all the cracks and then live however, but you know, I think we as a generation are unique in that we have a massive choice to choose differently. We see where we're entering it with eyes wide open. So we can heal. do think you... on our terms. The extended gift though is that you guys are talking about it and the extended gift is to the younger girls coming up who can kind of... If they can hear you and comprehend and open to what you're talking about, maybe not have some of the same shared experience. That's the point here. Yeah, so your podcast has a tremendous amount of value, especially if you can tap into some of the younger... generation. The more Gen X women that use their voice to talk about this stuff via podcasts, books, Ted Talks, know, clips on social media, I view it as I want us to be a resource for younger women. And when they Google something, our voices are there to say, here you go. We're here even when we're gone, even when we're gone. the generations way after. I want us to be the beginning of the resources because there were none for us. None. That'll move the needle for women. That is what will change things. think that will because we are saying we weren't raised in a girlhood situation. We weren't raised to support each other, but we are now. And watch out. Because as competitive as we were with each other, if we flip that and support each other, you can't stop women. It's huge. We're going to... about strength we will support each other with our last dying breath well there's power in numbers and you just don't have it right now as women you're fragmented and if you can kind of get it to you know i don't want to get together but your point the menopause um we can use we can be smart enough to use that to our benefit you know that the you know to not caring about certain things that gives us the strength to support each other unshackled, right? You're totally like unshackled and it's like free. It's so freeing. And now we can speak. the thing is as well, that's different to other generations. Well, one, we had the crisis moment, which has allowed us to kind of explode and let it all out. But we have the platforms now. You have the platforms, the voice carries further and you feel compelled to speak because there's a platform for it. Everything's come together really for us to do this, I think. So it's powerful. it's coming from an authentic place and a good place and with good intention. And I think when things are created with good intention, they will travel to where they need to be. know, they will be they will go out. And if that's the intention, then it will land where it's supposed to. um So I'm proud of every time I see a genetics woman come up on my feed or I get a message from one. or even the older millennial women that reach out. And we even have Gen Z girls that will comment and say stuff. I'm just like, this is amazing. I love it. Bring it more. I just want to keep it here. It's amazing. It's like, because as we use our voice, we give them a space to use theirs. Do you guys have, do you have on your podcasts or any comments, guys my age or older that are just total jackasses and say stupid things? Because we do see that. Do you have this? Not really, no, because we, guess because the last, the first year we talked about so many topics in a more general way rather than now looking more at this whole self-worth thing. But. We actually, when guys reached out, it's been more about the fact that they identify with that. They're like, cause we talked about things like, you know, how we all define success, you know, cause we're talking about redefining success, you know, cause for someone who's, who's deeply shy or got anxiety success, like, you know, I saw it with my son, success was getting in the school game, you know, and really change shifting focus because we've all been brought up in this thing with success equals, you know, money and things. So we talked a lot about stuff like that. over the last year and men would often hook into those kind of topics and go, yes, because I guess they feel that pressure too, right? Like to think you're successful because you, it's because you've got a certain income or you've got a certain job title. Whereas men were feeling those wounds as well. So we've been kind of lucky. We've been, yeah, in that way that we've had that men feel validated and that, but yeah, I guess you get all kinds of people hooking in. Yeah. think the Gen X men need a space for their emotional development and for their own healing journey and they can be their own worst enemy too because we do get we do we have had a lot of Gen X men that do make comments of you thank you for saying this I relate to this or I understand I need to be on a healing journey I don't know where to start I've seen those comments but then at the same time I get we get just as many comments of guys being like we're Gen X you know we we drink from the garden hose what do you we didn't have trauma you just grind through it and so you have the two you know the two but as Gen X women grow and heal and find their voice if they're in a relationship or a marriage their partner better figure his stuff out or else it's gonna work. It's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. just is. the responsibility to talk up because we have that. We have the whole thing going on, you know, like we didn't just be brought up in an environment where emotions weren't talked about. We just grafted, you got on with it. We had that, but we also had that expectation, you know, because of that to step into the workforce, to do all of this, you know, and carry the role of kids. So we hit this pressure cooker that they haven't really hit. So it's different, you know, and they haven't been forced to crack open like we've been forced, you know, because I'm sure they're carrying the same. thing, a lot of different things, you know, the need men have to hold it all in, know, men have to be strong, men have to all this, that's stuff that has to come out, but I think that pressure corker hasn't been there for them, whereas it's been there for us. I'll be curious. Why do you that? because so we had the the our emotional development was also not addressed just like yours in childhood. But then we also had to go into work and be like on the mask. That's what you're saying, right? And be in the masculine world. expectation, get into the workplace, don't be a stay at home mum, all those other pressures. We had to deny our other role, which we still had, you know. So we ended up with this double whammy going on. And so the pressure cooker was immense. And that's what's cracked a lot, you know, and then women going through perimenopause, they're like, whoa, okay, hang on. I've been doing all the, you know, yeah. your one role, right? Not really. You know what I mean, though? you... No, I don't. OK, so what I mean is this. You guys grew up with your emotional development pretty much also denied. But then you guys went to work pretty much. You weren't expected to also be staying home, like to take care of all the domestic responsibilities, which we've talked about before. So women were then expected to take care of the home front and go to work. Men just went to work. So you didn't... Yeah, but for me it's there are men who would want to take other jobs or professions Maybe a man being a nurse, right? That's that's not cool, right? It's cool now, but it wasn't cool I never wanted to be that I hadn't experienced that but that exists right, right? It's a fascinating topic I do think you probably have one over on us in terms of the But you're saying you had other pressures maybe to be more to be masculine there's the masculine mould and they definitely had to fight. Even my son's fight, you know, he's in school and they have to address that a lot because it's a huge thing for men that you had to conform to this certain image of what a man is and how a man is supposed to be in the world. And that made you obviously reduced in so many ways. There's definitely a pressure. I just think it wasn't a pressure that came as a storm like ours did because we had other factors that just made it absolutely impossible to cope. that was the difference, you know, whereas I think the men's journey was huge and it is huge, still it's an ongoing issue, but there weren't as many factors to cause, there wasn't the sledgehammer that made it crack open when it did with us. I think it's just slightly different journey. You know, it's interesting, and I don't disagree with what you're saying. I think everything we do as humans is unnatural. And in that you do go out the house and you do go to these bullshit corporate jobs to do these synthetic weird things that none of it's natural, right? It makes more sense to stay in plant potatoes or grow a garden and feed your family and that kind of stuff, right? That's more natural. None of us are doing natural things. It's not natural to be an Uber driver or to be a pilot or to be an executive. So now you're talking like caveman stuff. I'm just saying none of it's natural. So we're all stressed and we're all adapting to these synthetic things that we've all created. at the Patriot women trying to fit into the Patriot, but then we're looking at humans trying to fit into this civilization. Like it's another level of, you know. I've learned one thing on this podcast. You're right. You guys are right. 100 % You got one over on us. none of it's natural. Talking about the pressure though, I do think they go through their own hormonal changes midlife and I want to do an episode on that andropause. go through that. But also I wonder if part of the pressure that will help them crack or not or whatever is um them having to rise to the occasion in their own healing journey. to save their marriages or to save their relationships. seen, I know a lot of people that have gotten divorced and it's happening. What's that called? The gray divorce? The gray divorce is that, look, you either, the pressure is you need to meet me here or else this marriage is over. that, therefore, before they know. you have that going on in Australia? That's probably a global thing too, right? The gray divorce? Yeah. rates massive for our age group and in general, I think. Yeah. We did a podcast on it actually on that. I can't remember the statistics, but yeah, huge. Did you guys bring menopause into it at all or how peri-menopause may play a role into it? Yeah. Has your- Yeah. Has- I've had to evolve a little bit. I'll be the first to admit I've had to evolve with having kids. Kids get older, hold you more accountable as the dad. She's- holds me more accountable to those things. Has- Did your husband kind of go through that as well? Did he- Did he evolve and shift and kind of help keep sorting it out? Yeah. he's had to as well. I mean, you know, because we have my son as well. He's been on that mental health journey, which was not. natural for him. know have to learn different ways of parenting than you would have. And he's he's born in 65 so he was 45 when we had our son so he was already know bachelor 45 very different very alpha you know so yeah his journey's been massive as well and it's not not easy yeah definitely 1965 So he's a... Is that the first Gen X? Or is that the last boomer? don't think he's Gen X. I think he's a Boomer. In my mind he is, but uh I don't know. Yeah. think he might be like the youngest Boomer or something, one of those. So, yeah. Do you? worked yeah different yeah he's like youngest boomer area, like not quite the next. Do you have any other questions before I ask my I do. I have two quick questions. Well, this one, I'm curious on your health system there in terms of women's health. I've made a subtle comment once around the doctor was having a bad day, the male doctor having a bad day, giving a woman shitty advice. I got destroyed in the comments. Do you, is your health system better for women? Do they? Do they, is there a higher value or importance put on women's healthcare than say maybe here? And it might be the matter of health. I don't know. don't know comparatively because I don't know what it's like there 100%. But here, you know, I have friends who see doctors who are brilliant. And I have friends who see doctors who are just like, what's HRT? You know, not what's HRT, but you don't need that. They want to discuss it. So it's very much on the early stages of it rolling out to being a thing, you know, so you got to choose your doctor, you got to speak to your friends, you got to talk to the right people because it won't naturally be picked up or talked about or acknowledged. So it's definitely better than it would have been. even 10 years ago, but it's evolving. Yeah. Yeah. have to be you have to be your own advocate. It's the bottom line. You have to have to do your own research. You almost have to go in with research done. So when they don't bring it up, you're like, okay, well, then what about this? Or I read that. And then you know, it triggers it. My other Gemini, right? And chat GPT, like we can now have even more ammunition. Unless you're searching your dog's symptoms and you're like, oh, shit. You don't want to know that. We just went through that. Okay, go ahead. Musical. So ACDC, huge fan of ACDC, and then definitely went through a minute work phase. What's the Australian perception of ACDC and minute work? Oh my god, see, this is a bad question. I'm the worst person to ask this question because I am not into music that other people are probably into. So you know what mean? But I grew up listening to like Crowded House. I don't know if you know. But ACDC I think, I mean back then it was probably big, but now it's seen as a little more like heavy metal-y type. Is that right? So it's a little bit not quite as mainstream. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. stuff, yeah. Angus and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. in the 90s, like people were listening. Whereas now, yeah, like if you spoke to my, some of my friends who are big musos, they would probably give a good answer. But I wasn't a, you know, I was listening, I was listening to country music in that time, really, you know, like, and a lot of American country music, like, cause my dad was into it and we were, and even a lot of the Eagles and I don't know, like on our jukeboxes at the pubs when we were drunk, it was all that kind of Steve Miller band, like the Joke, Things You Could Sing. uh kind of thing and then personally I was listening to Lentley Gravitz, Bob Marley, Tracy Chapman, you know was sort of listening to all that sort of stuff so I never really plugged in but I knew that that was happening but yeah. Okay. about like men at work though? Is that even a thing that they were huge? They were huge for us. they were big. They were big here too. Yeah, yeah, they were big here. that made me think of something I want to ask. growing up in the 80s, Mad Max was huge and Mel Gibson was that it was huge in America, like, huge. Was it big for you guys? Okay, was that was that like a national pride? Did you guys like were you proud of of that franchise? Because it's he's Australian. He's Australian. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, Mel Gibson. And it was, well, I suppose Nicole Kidman was, and she was just starting to come up as a thing because we didn't have many international A-listers. So yeah, it was a big thing. dundee was huge too in America. yeah, I know and it was big here in a different way to being big there and there's a lot of things like because I know Americans always because we always laugh about things like Americans often say if you if they're trying to sound Australian or whatever their whole their phrases throw a shrimp on the barbie. I've never thrown a shrimp on a barbie. Yeah, we do call it a barbie. Yeah. And I'm sure people put shrimps on the barbie but it's not our main thing. Like it's not like a big thing. Have you ever been to an Outback Steakhouse in America? That's a chain restaurant there. It's Australian based. Yeah. But they sold like an emu. Was it emu or something on the menu that I'd never seen in the menu in Australia? that's funny. This is the blooming onion. It's big thing. then the, do you guys, do you guys say g'day or is that just something Americans think you guys say? Okay. Okay. So that's, we're not just walking around kind of stupid. that's more of an oka, like a country, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, you do say it, g'day. Yeah, I guess we do. It's like, it doesn't sound as exaggerated as what Americans say, but I guess we do. Yeah. I know we probably said these are like now that we have an Australian we can ask those questions. Okay, go ahead. And then I have to ask my last question. So it's a lot of kids growing up here after they graduate from high school before going to college. They'll some kids will backpack across Europe like she did. Well, or even when they get out of college. Do you guys have a destination like that where maybe you have a, you're in a different part of the world, right? So do you, do you work at coming to America or- Or like Thailand or- Europe or Thailand, Southeast Asia? She went everywhere, but. Yeah, I did all of those but I think the general trajectory for my generation was, I think it's a different now, but my generation was because we could get the working holiday visa in England. So a lot of people did that. So that was their thing. They'd do Europe and do the working holiday in the UK so they could get some money. So that was the thing. So you'd go and do that and live as a backpacker across. And then now though, I think a lot more go to Southeast Asia. they're probably, I mean, I went to Thailand and India and a lot did. But the ones that would have gone to Thailand, India and all those were probably ones who did Europe and then like me didn't want to go home. And so they did other parts of the world. So they did a lot. But I think now first stop for a lot is possibly going and traveling in Southeast Asia and still the UK because we still get the working holiday visa and you get a working holiday visa in Germany, Sweden, Canada. So therefore most of us gradually gravitated to those kind of places because you could work and then you could travel, you know, because you're away for two years. Because we're down here. You don't just say I'm gonna go for three months It's like I'm going for a year or two. So it's sort of different. Yeah Do you guys, when Americans em are tourists in Australia, are they, do you guys like Americans when you see it? Yeah? We are loud. Do you like it? Are you guys like, the Americans are here? do you guys, like how do Australians? Okay. Yeah, no, think people, I think it used to be more, I think now it's more like we're so used to Americans being, you know, because there's a lot, there's a lot of live in our neighborhood and stuff. But I think before we were so globalized, you know, Americans were always, because it's just loud and the accents loud, well, I was an American, but not in a bad way. It was more just like, could know that's the Americans like, because they were louder. You were just more, yeah, chatty, which is, which is what I loved, like when I was in LA. Anytime you're wake up in the morning and go for a walk and you walk down street and everyone's like morning how are you and I loved that whereas here like no everyone's just kind in England as well just doing their thing you know so I loved about the energy there everyone's chatting everyone it's lovely Yeah, we all say hi. Hi. How you doing? Like we just do naturally. If we're waiting in line a lot of times we'll just start a conversation. And I know that I've seen on TikTok people are like, why do the Americans always talk? Well, think you guys have a good reputation here. think it's especially for me. I remember being in college and met this guy. He was on a a bike tour of the West Coast. And he started in like San Francisco and he was riding his bike up to like maybe Canada or Seattle. And I met him in Ashland, Oregon, of all places. And we had a good time. Had a lot of fun. Americans love Australians. Yeah. You guys party. You guys are just nice. Yeah, 100%. So nice, easygoing, beautiful people inside and out. Like there's I've never heard anyone say anything, anything bad. You guys are just like You're like everybody's friend. We have an Australian neighbor, actually. we do. We do. Yeah. My last question is always, where do you see yourself in five years? I see myself in five years. Is this like a psychologically or physically or both? However you interpret the question. Benefits? Yeah exactly. I see myself living between Melbourne and Italy and I want to have the... income to facilitate that because I love Tuscany. see that as I want that balance and I want to be able to see the kids and be traveling again. I want that life where I'm not just in one location. I think that because in all of this, even though I did everything to try and work myself out, I do actually love travel. I love being in different cultures. I love, you know, moving and seeing new things. And I just love that. And my husband's the same. So I feel like I want to have two bases. I want to have a Southern Hemisphere base and a Northern Hemisphere base. And I want to be able to move between the two experiences. things, you know, I want to do lots of writing, I want my book published, I want to be a writer, that's my actual goal because I feel like that's my journey and I hope I keep having the confidence to actually do that. I hope so, too. You should. I mean, I'm here to tell you you should. I that everyone in your life could say that, but you have to believe that. It's there. mean, Julie, we can't thank you enough for sharing your story. I find it incredibly inspiring and just what you've gone through and what you've accomplished in spite of your anxiety, in spite of the imposter syndrome that just you could not knock off your shoulder for so long. in spite of sometimes probably the daily battle just to be present in the moment and to look at the catalog of what the life experience you have is such a testament to how strong you are as a person and um beyond any achievement. Just that you honored your life enough in spite of all that to tackle all these things is such an inspiration. And I just have to acknowledge that. And I hope you absorb that at some point because you deserve that. Thank you. It feels like you make me sound much more than I am, but it's lovely to be here. It's lovely to chat. And our and if and if for people that are listening to this, they just heard it. So it's it's your inspiration. And I hope you show your children the work you've done on the documentaries one way or another, because that alone is a very admirable feat. It's a dream that a lot of people have to do. And it's a special talent. And in addition to sharing about your travels with your children, because especially your daughter. Really. Talk about modeled behavior. You know, I mean, you you've you can model everything for her. And so that alone is a gift to your daughter. And what she she she will grow up thinking as she should, she can do anything. And that's because you've paved that way for her. So and I know you've been an inspiration. It's it's the truth. It's the truth. So and then on top of that, your podcast with Aline. that you guys have created that to help women midlife through the messy midlife, as you put on your questionnaire. And it is messy. And it's not it's it's beautifully messy. It's a mess. as as you said, when the pieces fall apart and we quickly pick them up because we can't have that. But then what we do with it and mold it and that you guys have have created a space to help women figure out what to do with the pieces is a gift, um a gift to women. So. as what you're doing. mean, you know, you're amazing the way and both of you, I mean, this podcast is a fantastic platform just for people to see themselves finally, just to see themselves. Like that's huge. That's the point, right? That's the point is to help people feel seen and to be a voice and a resource for men and women of our age and also to help change the narrative for the younger generations coming behind us to be part of that cultural shift. So thank you. right? We're leaving footprints that they can. Yep. Yeah. the work. We're part of the Gen X legacy. And and it's and we're doing it with good intention. And so and I can't wait to have a lean on just for listeners. We're having a lean on. So but yeah, we're excited. And so listeners, you need to check out the You Keep Me Saying podcast. We will have everywhere you can find Julie and Aileen in the show notes. So check those out. But Again, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. means a lot. It's been an honor. I love talking to you guys. Thank you. it was was wonderful. Just lovely. You make me want to travel and I don't leave. I know America. There's so much in America I can see. I don't need to leave, but you make me want to want to go be adventurous. know one sidebar. I know I will. You can go on Google Maps and do the road from from Sydney up to Brisbane. I've done that because my buddy was down there. That's cool. Google Maps. actually see it from first. Awesome. Yeah, it's cool. That's cool. That's cool. So again, listeners, if you have any questions for Julie, leave them in the comments and she'll see them. Definitely check out the You Keep Me Saying podcast. um All the information will be in the show notes. And if you have any questions for Brian and I, please leave them. We love to see it and we will see you next time. Bye.