Episode 54 - GenX Speaks Series: Denise Conde - The Valor of Generation X Artwork

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GenX Adulting Podcast

Episode 54 - GenX Speaks Series: Denise Conde - The Valor of Generation X

December 16, 2025 • Brian & Nicole • Season 2 • Episode 54

In this episode we welcome Denise Conde, author of “The Valor of Generation X: How the Courageous Are Finding a New Path to Growth and Love”. Denise graciously and candidly shares about her upbringing, where she suffered physical, mental, emotional and narcissistic abuse from both of her parents. Denise shares about learning sign language in the darkness of the bedroom she shared with her sister who is deaf, as they communicated in silence about the fighting going on upstairs in their home. After high school, Denise left home for college, and hence began her eight year journey of running from her parents all while working to get her bachelor's degree. Marriage and motherhood followed, as did a fulfilling career as a special education teacher. Divorce brought new changes, including finding love and marrying again. After her father’s death ratcheted up her mother’s narcissistic abuse, Denise eventually made the decision to go no contact as she embarked on an incredible healing journey. From that journey “The Valor of Generation X” was born, as well as a set of courses customized to coincide with the book. The tools of healing Denise shares are invaluable, and she offers great insight as we discuss each one. We learn about the importance of tailored meditation and how the nervous system is connected to our subconscious, which significantly contributes to how we are hard wired. She offers concrete information to help someone in search of taking the first steps of their own healing journey, while never forgetting the importance of explaining the why. We truly admire Denise for her strength, but also for her prioritization of peace and calm. We were honored she was so open in sharing what was assuredly some of the most painful moments of her life. We know this episode will resonate and be very helpful to many.

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[Music]Welcome to Gen XAdulting andtoday we haveDenise Conde, theauthor of TheValor ofGeneration X withus.Welcome, Denise.Thank you. Thankyou forhaving me.We're so thrilledto have you. Ourfirst question isalways what yearwere you born?1972.Okay, soyou are Gen X.100%.Nice. Nice. Andwhere wereyou born?I was born inBuffalo,New York.Nice. And we havea lot of Buffalofans aslisteners, sothey'll love tohear that. Wereyour parents fromBuffalo?My father was, mymother was not.My mom was fromFlorida. She wasa Navy, Navybrat, so tospeak. She'straveled allover, but they,they traveledback this waywhere my father'sfamily was from.Okay, so wereyour grand, yourpaternalgrandparents fromBuffalo?No. Well, yes,they were. Buttheir parentswere from likeGermany andacross Europe.Okay, so yourgrandparents werefor secondgeneration orfirst generation?First generation.First generation.And then your dadis secondgeneration?Correct.And in Buffalo,your grandparentssettled inBuffalo?Yes.So you werereally fromBuffalo?Really fromBuffalo. I'mactually from alittle smallsuburb calledLackawanna.That's where Iwas born.And then when Iwas 18 monthsold, my fatherwas in themilitary and hegot a job inYoungstown in thevillage that Icurrently livein, in myhometown, as towork on ahovercraft, whichwas to travelfrom Youngstownacross LakeOntario toToronto and backand forth.And so he was amechanic on thatbecause he did alot of work onhovercrafts andthings of thatnature inVietnam.And so it was theperfect fit forhim. And so whenwe moved, so thenhe moved ourfamily toYoungstown, NewYork, which iswhere Icurrently reside.So what branch of themilitary was he?Navy.Okay. So, okay.So he's fromBuffalo. He grewup in Buffalo.And then hedidn't go tocollege. He wentinto the Navyafterhigh school?Correct. And hewas stationed inSan Diego. And sothat's where hemet my mother. Mymother was livingin San Diego. Mygrandfather wason my mom's side,was in the Navy,and that's wherethey met.Okay. So your dadwas in the Navy.Your mom, as yousaid, was a Navybrat. So her dadwas in the Navy.Do you know howthey met inSan Diego?They met. I don'tknow exactly howthey met. I thinkit was on thebeach. Oh, cool.Oh, wait asecond. I doknow. So myfather and abunch of hisbuddies had aplace onthe beach.In some littlesmall town, Ican't rememberthe name of itright now, butright near SanDiego, in theNavy base andeverything there,and they werealways having alot of parties onthe beach.And my mother andher girlfriends,my mom was 16 inhigh school. Myfather was 19.And they met. Mymother gotpregnant. She was16 when she gotpregnant.And their parentsmade them getmarried. Myfather left forVietnam during mymother'spregnancy. Sheturned 17 with myoldest sister.And my fatherwent off toVietnam for ayear and cameback when mysister was born.So she was a yearold before he wasthe first timethat he saw herwhen she was ayear old.So were theymarried? So theygot marriedbefore he left.And then when hecame back, wasshe stillin San Diego?She was. Yes. Andthen he gotstationed in NewJersey. And sothey moved withmy sister fromSan Diego to NewJersey. And thenmy father wantedout of the Navyand he wanted tobe closerto family.And then theycame back toBuffalo. And thenwhen they werehere, he waslooking for jobsand so on and soforth. And thenhe had, you know,my sister wasalready born.There's I have amiddle sister.And so then bythe time I wasborn, like he hadjobs. And I mean,back then, like,you know,everybody wasgetting laid off.They were gettinghired. Then theywere getting laidoff. I mean, likeeverybody wasstrugglingfinancially. Sothis seemed likethe dream job for my father.And so that'swhen my familymoved here towhere I am now.But likeliterally a yearand a half, Ithink they werehere. And thehovercraft likesomethinghorrifichappened.And the bit likethey never wereable to repairit. And it wentlike out ofbusiness and hewas stuckdriving. But heloved it here somuch for likewhere we wereliving and theneighborhood andthe schools andeverything forthe kit for us.And so theydidn't want to goback to Buffalo.And so they myfather ended uplike working inBuffalo. And thenhe had enough ofthat because hecontinually just got laid off.It was like theway that thingswere likeBethlehem Steelwas a big dealhere. Ford plant.And he was amechanic. He wasmechanicallyinclined.So he did a tonof work inconstruction. Andthen he justended up openinghis ownconstructioncompany. And hestayed local tothis area inNiagara County.Just because I'msure Brian knows,but I don't. Whenyou're sayinghovercraft, whatdo you, is itlike a ship?It's like a boaton like pontoonskind of like areblown up likearound the boat.And it's got thefan on the backto push it.Okay. Okay. Allright. Kind oflike kind of whatI was picturing.Yeah. Okay. Sokind of like wehave airboatsdown here. Sothat kind of fan,right? That wouldbe pushing theairboats.Yeah. But youhave to picturelike an inflatedbase with then,you know, like aninflated bottom,like a big tiretube almost.And so, but thatwasn't throughthe milk, theNavy, right? Thatwas a privatecompany.And so somethinghappened wherethere was a holein it and peoplewere able to getrescued off of itthat weretraveling backand forth. It waskind of like afairy, but it wasa hovercraft.But that wasn'this job. So itwas like a fairy.It was kind ofthe concept of afairy that wouldtransfer peoplefrom your areainto Canada,right? Correct.Yes, exactly.Was he was theone of themechanics to takecare of thathovercraft?Correct. Okay.Okay. And so whenit, when it sunk,then that job wasdone. Correct.Okay. And then hewent through andthen he settledand he startedhis ownconstructioncompany.That's probably big news backthen. Yeah,right. Thehovercraft sunkand we're out ofbusiness. Yeah.Well, I mean, Iwas like two. Soyou're oldersisters born in San Diego.Your middlesister, I assumeis born in NewJersey. No, shewas born here.Okay. So they gota pair of.Same as me whereher and I areonly 18 monthsapart. Okay. Andthen you wereborn. So arethere three ofyou? Yes. Okay.And so, and thenyou guys, wasyour mama stay athome mom?She was until Iwas about, Idon't know, 10,8, 9, 10. And shestarted workingfor NiagaraMohawk, which nowis National Grid,which is thepower company inthis area. And soshe workedfor them.So, yeah. So thenafter that, aftermy mom went towork, like, youknow, it wasyouth gone wild.Like we all, likeit was on. Wewere all justdoing ourown things.When your momwent back towork, when youwere like around10, your oldersisters wouldhave been what,11 and then 13,if I'm doing themath. Yeah. Yeah.So if I was 10,my oldest sister,she is six yearsolder than me. Soshe was 16. She's16. And then myother sister'sjust a year, youknow, dependingon the month.So did you, andyou're the onethat you're closein age with, didyou guys go todaycare? Was yourolder sister incharge of takingcare of you guys?Well, my mom washome when we werelittle, little,little, and thenwe went and thenwe start, no, wenever went todaycare.You'd been like,that's what Imean. When yourmom went to workand she was 10,did you become alatchkey?No, like I didn'tgo to afterschoolprograms or I,but yeah,latchkey, like, Imean, I letmyself in andback and forth.Yeah. Yeah. Ofcourse. I also,you know, it'sfunny because my,my sibling isclosest to me andage. Her and I,she's deaf. Soshe went to St.Mary's school forthe deaf inBuffalo. So likethere, there wasthat huge age gapbetween myselfand my, my oldersister. And then I was like, oh, I'm not going to do that.And then thesister that I wasclosest in ageto, because shewas deaf, she,she traveled togo to school. So,and she wasallowed to sleepthere in Buffaloduring the week.And even whenthey, she becamea certain age,like she rarelycame home on theweekends or herfriends were overwould comebecause most ofher friends werein Buffalo orlike the outlyingareas of Buffalo.So there was alot of time whereit was, it wasjust me. Like Icome home and my,my sister at 18,she went into themilitary. So as Iaged and my othersister was atschool inBuffalo. So Iliterally wasletting myself inand out and ofthe house.It was funnybecause I wouldoften miss thebus because Iwould have to getmyself up dressedand you know, fedand get on thebus and I missedthe bus. Andthere was a lot.And there waslike aneighboring momthat like Iplayed soccerwith herdaughters.And she was likethe only mom inthe area that washome. And so Iwent during theday or in themorning, like allparents weregone, right? So Iwould call her.And so she kindof her and I kindof kept it asecret because,you know, shedidn't want me toget in troublefor, for, formissing the bus.So she was like asecondary mom tome. And it was,it was reallyfunny too.That is amazing.So did your momever find out?Yeah, theyeventually foundout, but I wasolder. I think Iwas like 12 bythat time. And myparents werelike, what? Youknow, what wereyou doing? Werethey upset orwere they happythat she hadhelped you orwere they moreupset with you?I think they wereprettyembarrassed, tobe honest. Ithink they wereupset. They werenot happy aboutit, which, youknow, my, my dadwas oftentimeshome asleep. AndI, I'd have toget myself up andwhatever. And itwas like, so totell him, I wouldhave gotten myass kicked. Like,you know what Imean? So, so Ihad to findsomebody elsethat was going inanother safeadult that wasgoing to hook meup and get me.You missed thebus and it wasbetter to go downthe road to theneighbor than tostick around andtell your dad, Ineed a ride toschool orwhatever.Yeah. So I mean,I was, I leftalone a lotbecause of the,like, yes, I hadsiblings, butbecause they eachdifference, mysister beingdeaf, I was, Iwas 100% like aski kid. I mean,my, my diet whenI came home fromschool waspickles andfreezy pops.Yeah, that soundsabout right. Thatsounds aboutright. And yoursister was almostlike in aboardingsituation whereshe was sleepingin. So you saidyour dad wasasleep. So didhis, was hishours where hewas still athome. Like yousaid he wasasleep and youwere getting outfor school. So hewasn't up andheading out towork atthat same time.Well, he workedfor himself andhe also like, um,so he could makehis own hours andhe, as a Vietnamveteran, I mean,he had a lot ofmental healthissues. So, youknow, you didn'tknow what youwere going to getif you interactedwith him.Uh, you know,when you weresupposed to begetting yourselfon the bus ateight, nine, 10years old, whichis ridiculous,right? All initself. But, um,you know, it, soyeah, I mean, hewould be home. Myfather had thislike thing wherehe would just, hewouldn't leavethe house.Like youwouldn't, and youwere like scaredto come home. Youknow what I mean?Like you didn'tknow what youwere going toget. It was veryexplosive. Um,he'd be very kindand loving, but,um, you know, itwas, it was adifficult.I had a difficultchildhood.There's noquestion aboutit. Um, you know,which I alsowrite about, um,a bunch in mybook, um, aboutmy dad. Um, Iloved my dad. Um,but he did have alot of mentalhealth issues.So, so you werewalking oneggshellsprobably for mostof yourchildhood. Oh,absolutely. Imean, I lived ina very explosivehome. Like myparents wereconstantlyfighting and youknow, I don'tmean this likescreaming andyelling. I mean,like shippingthrown across thehouse, likebanging, yelling,you know, I wouldbe sitting downand I would bewoken up when Iwas little girldown. And I hit up like a, like,where we livedour house. Um, itwas likeconsidered thebasement, but itwasn't, it waslike a thirdstory. It was thebasement, but ithad windows andlike a door and awalkout to it.And, um, and thenthe second likemain streetlevel. And thenthere was a thirdstory. So mysister and I, ourbedrooms, thesister and I,that where I wasclosest and ageto, we were inthe basementlevel of thehome. And so, youknow, shit wouldall of a sudden,shit would breakloose and, uh, you know,and it was like,oh my God, whatis going on? Andshe's deaf. Soshe couldn't hearany of that. So Iwould wake her upbecause I'myounger and I'mscared. And I'mtelling her like,what's going on?And, um, andsigning to her. Ilearned signlanguage in thedark. I learnedsign language. Welearned tocommunicate likehand over hand,like signing sothat we couldcommunicate whatwas going on inour home when wewere young.Oh, wow. Noteven, I can'tsign, but you'retouching herhands doing this.The concept ofHelen Keller, howHelen Kellerlearned. Yeah.Yeah. So, so likeduring the day,like the ABC, D EF. And so wewould, um, like,I knew that partof it. And sothen when we werelike, in like, itall hell brokeloose and I wouldwake her up.Um, she would, wewould communicatein the dark. So Iwould be signingto her lettersand I was like,we would feeleach other'shands. We wouldgo like that.Okay. I got it.Then likespellingthe next word.And you wouldthink of befingerspelling oneach other'shands, basically.Correct. Wow.That is, that issuch a unique,traumaticexperience. Right.It's, I thinkabout that. Like,holy shit. Yeah.It's experiencingtrauma insilence, butwhile you'recommunicatingwith each other.Well, right. I'mhearing it. She'snot, I'mcommunicating toher what's goingon. And, um, youknow, and a lotof times myoldest sister,um, when shelived at homewould be involvedin it. Um,whether it was,you know, she hadcome home lateor, you know, there was an argument that she was, you know,there was anargument betweenmy parents thatshe got inbetween. Sothere, there wasme and my, um,my, my closersister that wasto age, mydeaf sister.We, um, her and Iwere, um, belistening to allhellbreak loops.So it was, it wasreally difficult.So then my oldestsister left, sheran away. She waslike her senioryear. Shegraduated fromhigh school.She was like, I'mout of here. Shemoved in withclose familyfriends. And thenthe two of them,her and her bestfriend joined themilitary, whichwas like, myfather didn'twant herto do that.And, um, she waslike, whatever,fuck you. LikeI'm doingwhatever I wantwith my life. Andso then mysister, thenclosest and agewith as we wereaging, she thenwas moreinvolved. Like,you know, whenyou start joiningsports andeverything,you'reafter school.Once she becamelike 12 aroundthat age, 12, 13,she was stayingat school likeconsistently. Sothen I was homeby myself themajority of thattime until shegraduated fromhigh school. Andthen she went toGallaudetUniversity inWashington, DC.So is that aschool forthe deaf?Mm hmm. It's adeafuniversity in DC.Okay. So do youfeel in a weirdway you canrelate to beingan only child inthe way, like youhad some liens,but do you feelthat you probablyalso had a lot ofonly childexperiencesgrowing up?I do. And I, youknow, I talkabout this, thispart in my bookabout, you know,families andgetting differentversions of ourparents as kids,you know,especially whenyou're talkingwith yoursiblings aboutyour, yourexperiencesgrowing up fromyour childhood.And, you know,it's like, well,you're a spoiledbrat. You know,my sister, myoldest sisterwould say to meand I'm like, I,you know, like, Ididn't choosethis, like, Ididn't choosewhere, you know,to be in thisorder of birth.And, you know,because I did getbetter versionsof my parents. Insome ways, theywere verysupportive whenit came tosports, myfriendships,boyfriends werelike, that wasnot the case formy oldest sister.Like, I mean,anybody that mysister broughthome, whether itwas a friend or aboyfriend, theywerefucking losers.Like, that's whatmy father wouldsay to her, wheremy parents openedthe doors more tomy, they learned,right? Theylearned fromtheir experience.And you have thatone child that's,excuse me, offand running.She's gone. She'sin the military.She doesn't haveanything to dowith you.And you haveanother child athome, and youhave the onethat's up inBuffalo all thetime. So theywere split in alot ofdifferent ways.When it came tome and my closestsibling, becausewe were both veryactive in sports.We ran track, weplayed soccer,both of us. Shedidn't reallyplay soccerlike I did.But I mean, myfather traveledwith me all overthe place withsoccer. Like mysister, my oldestsister didn't getthat experience.So I was close tomy dad, but atthe same time, hewas verycontrolling. Hewas extremelyviolent. I mean,if I screwed up,like, I got it.Like, you know, Igot hit by thebelt. Like, Ican't even tellyou the tape.So was that hisform of physicalpunishment? Wasit always thebelt or werethere slapsacross the faceand thattype of stuff?Yeah, yeah. Slapsacross the face.And I mean, youknow, like Iwould I was likeconstantlyrunning for myparents.And but at thesame time, like,and I think it'ssuch agenerationalthing, too, formany Gen Xers,like the parentsnever reallylooked atthemselves inwhat was causingtheir kid tonever want tocome home or tostay out allnight andpass curfew.Well, it'sbecause I wasscared to deathto come home lateor, you know, forany reason, getthe shit kickedout of you.And so, you know,and then begrounded forweeks on end. Imean, I think mylongest groundingwas like 10weeks, literally.And and at thattime, like mysister, my my Ithink I was likein my sophomoreyear ofhigh school.So my oldestsister was gone.She was in themilitary. I thinkshe might haveeven been marriedby then.And my thesibling that'sclosest to me waslikenever around.And the worstthing that aparent couldpossibly do to aGen X kid is totake away theirmusic. Right.He literally cameinto my because Iwould be groundedin like whateverI and especiallybecause we snuckin and out of thehouse and I hadmy own door.I had my own doorwhere I wouldcome and goanyway. So theywould go to bedand I would justlike walk out thedoor and I had toclimb over thisfence to get outof the yardbecause it waslike alower level.But I did. Youknow, so I wasjust living mylife normallyuntil my fatherrealized where toreally hurt me,which was to takeaway allof my music.And that wastorture. Like, Imean, I literallywent to school,came home andwent to mybedroom.Like the idea wasto just study.And it was, youknow, Ihad gotten.I was likefailing likeeverything I hadlike C's and D'sand F's and maybeone B in gym.You know, understandableconsidering whatwas going on inthe home, becausenot only were youexperiencingphysical abuse,but I'm assumingyou wereexperiencingsevere emotionalabuse as wellfrom your father.I mean, it'salmost God, whata weird becausemy dad wasn't inmy lifeconsistently, butI would think so.And to me, I hadan absent father.But in a way, thesituation youwere in is youhad a father thatwas there, but anabsent father,like he didn'tgive you anythingyou needed as aas a young girlthat a girl needsfrom her father.So he's there.The shell of himis there. You'rejust getting allthe abuse fromhim and not thethings you shouldbe getting fromyour father.So there has. Soit almost makesme wonder forchildren in thatsituation, dothey stillexperience anabandonmentcomplex because100 percent youhave the parentthere because Ihad severeabandonmentissues severe.Well, because Ididn't have afather, right.But you did. Butyou still didn't.So there has beenan imminentissuesthere, right?Oh, of course. Ofcourse. I mean,you know, it'sfunny. And ofcourse, all GenX, we all jokeabout our ourissues, right?Because it justmakes it easierto deal with, Iguess, thesarcasm andhumor. And, youknow, I wassaying to myhusband, Icouldn'tfind him.I we were at asocial gathering.I couldn't findhim for like, Idon't know, 10minutes. And allof a sudden I waslike in this thislike, oh, my God,where is he?And I found himand I'm like,God, there goesmy abandonmentissue showing up.I like, you know,it's like like,did youleave me here?No, of coursenot. Like, youknow how we canget so far in ourlives and andreallyacknowledge everyissue we had.We can get deepand get theloaded layers andand heal and anddo right by ourkids and allthat. But there'salways that onethose demons arethere that alwaysthat one thingthat can bring usright back forthat moment.But what's sogreat is yourecognized it.You're like,yeah, you knewright. You know,you're like, oh,there it is.You know, thereit is. There is.There's mefreaking out forno reason. Like,are you serious?And he's like,get a grip.So wait. So thatwas yoursituation withyour dad. Didyour mom counterit with warmthand support andeverything youwould needfrom a mother?No, my mother wasI mean, rememberhow youngmy mom was.My mom was a kidherself when whenas far as I'mconcerned, Imean, you know,I'm not defendingher actions byany means.But I mean, whenyou look at you,look at how youngmy parentsactually were,too. Not excusingnot any of that.But my mom justkind of mirroredit. I mean, mymother was by thetime I was 16,you know, 17, 18,I had a car and Iwas leaving anddoingwhatever I wanted.You know, when Icome home and Iget the shitkicked out of me,my mother wouldtell me Ideserved it. So,you know, and Imean, it thinksit just likeescalated and gotworse and worse.Like, as I aged,you know, I wasit was to thepoint where Iwould just likego out drinkingwith my friendsand I want tocome home for aweek because Iknew that if Iwent home, whatwould happen?I wouldn't beprotected. Iwould get theshit kicked outof me. And noneof my siblingswere home at thatpoint. Iwas by myself.They no longerlived with myparents. So itwas just me for along time at, youknow, into my 20sand trying to goto college.You know, I knewthat I alwayswanted to be ateacher, but Ialso was alwaysrunning, alwaysrunning forsafety, alwaystrying to findsafety, always,always drinking,always partying,coping with thefact that I don'treally truly haveanywheresafe to live.And so I how oldwas I? I think Iwas I failed outof college.My. So I went toa communitycollege in thearea for thefirst year and Iwas living athome and the theabuse justcontinued. It wasworse. And, youknow, and I wouldfight back.But, you know, Ithink it was notuntil I was like20, 21, 22 yearsold, because Iwould leave likeI would go staywith friends andthen Iwould come back.I would leave. Iwould come in.You know what Imean? Like thatdomestic abusekind of thingwhere you wouldit takes how manytimes before awoman wouldactually leavethe situationconstantly comingback because Ididn't have whatI wanted was astable placewhere I couldthrive in.So I could go tocollege on aconsistent basis.And so I had theopportunity to goto a communitycollege up in theAdirondacks herein New York.And I took it andI went and I hada fairlysuccessful year.I think I'mskipping aroundhere, though. SoI went tocommunity collegeand I got into astate college,Buffalo StateCollege here inBuffalo.My first semesterthere livingalone, I on myown, I shouldsay, I failedout. I partied. Ilike stoppedgoing to classes.Of course, Iself-sabotage. Ididn't know howto live on my ownsuccessfully. Andyeah, tanked.And then myfather wanted toknow like mygrades andwhatever and myboyfriend at thetime and I madeup a fakereport card.And whencomputers justlike came out,you know, andlike the printerswith like thelittle thing thatyou had to peeloff on the side.We generated afake report card.Then he happenedto know somebodyin one of theoffices, like theenrollment officeorsomething like that.And he was ableto get my grades.Oh, my gosh. So Ihave a questiongoing back alittle bit.You hadmentioned, youknow, you wouldleave for like aweek, then comeback. And then,you know, and howwomen, it takesmultiple tries toleave asituation.Right. And I havea question thatgoes back to mycollege days. Ivolunteered in acenter for, youknow, thinktechnically isbetter and abusedwomen and theirchildren.It's like acounselor for thekids. And I nevercould rationalizeor come to gripswith why theywould come back.And they told methis is going tohappen. So, youknow, women aregoing to they'regoing to show upand then they'regoing to go backto theirsituation.And it's going torepeat itself andthey're going tocome back. And Icould never Inever got it. AndI never knewanyone to ask.And you might bethe first. Why isthat? What's thedynamic therethat that has haswomen going backto the I just Ijust think it'skind of like astock homie kindof thing.You know what Imean? Where youjust hope andpray that thingsare going to bebetter, thatthings are goingto somehow bedifferent, thatthe that, youknow, yourparents or, youknow, for thatsituation, thespouse is goingto make thechanges.And, you know,it's a completetrauma bond.You know, youdon't you don'trealize, I mean,at the back then,too, like, well,I had no idea whyI was continuingto go back.I just wantedthings to bedifferent. Butnow, inhindsight, it'slike, well, it'sjust glaringthat, you know, Ijust wanted to belovedunconditionally.And I didn't wantsomebody kick theshit out of me,but like Ialways, you know,and I didn't havethe means, youknow, I just feellike you'realways better.I know I did. Ifelt like I wasbetter when,like, as far aslike going outand drinking andpartying andhaving a regularroutine andstructure, I feltlike I was thatmy parents kindof helpedme with that.Although thesecond that,like, there was aconflict or therewas an issue,there was aproblem, thenI'll help brokeloose in itbecame veryheightened andviolent.I honestly can'tremember a timeever having aconversation witheither one of myparents withoutit gettingcompletelyviolent.So, you know, Ihope that answersyour question.It does. And Ithink I have atheory on it,too, though, likeI've a psychdegree. So Idon't practice itby any means, butenough to bedangerous.And there's thatconcept ofintermittentlearning is themost powerfullearning. And ifyou dorepetition,repetition, youcreate memory.But if you dosomething andthen you don't doit for a while,then you comeback and you doit, that's thatintermittentpiece.I just wonder,because you hadmentioned yoursister viewed youas being spoiledand you hadmentioned thatyou're you andyour dad.It sounds likeyou spent sometime on thesports frontwith, you know,he was therewatching games orpractices,whatever.So you've gotlittle nuggets ofpeace and love,acceptance,probably. Andthen and then allhellbreaks loose.I wouldn't dowhat he wanted meto do. Right.Yeah. Yeah. It'spowerful.And I, you know,it took me thedynamics inmy family.I really didn'tit wasn't able tocome to termswith them until Iwas forty seven,forty four foraroundthere, you know.And at thatpoint, like, youknow, here here Iam now, I have myown children.I'm in my secondmarriage. I havea blended family.And it's justcrazy thatbecause I hadgone no contactfrom my familymultiple times,from the time Iwas in myearly 20s.And then onceagain, like onceI started havingmy daughters,when they werevery young, Iwent no contact.And then again, Iand so it's likethis keep goingback. Right.Like you keepgoing back intothisdysfunctionalfamily in hopesthat people aregoing to mature,that people aregoing to change,that people aregoing to makeright by you.And and I alsothe thing is thatI think thatwomen insituations likelike these, theydon't realize howhorriblytraumatizedthey are.And and untilthey starttalking about orsomebody actuallystarts pointingit out like andhow it'saffecting yourbody, yournervous system,your brain, the,you know, theseverity of it.I mean,especially like,you know, backwhen we'retalking when Iwas 18 years old,I mean, we wereall so young andnobody was goingto get mentalhealth treatmentsor anythinglike that.You were justtold you'refucking crazy.Get over it. Likeyou put up withthis shit. Thisis the way yourparents are likethey'regood people.What's wrong withyou? You know, myfather and motherboth were veryinvolved in thecommunity that Icurrentlylive in.My dad was asoccer coach.Like my mom waslike on the boardof the soccer,the soccertournament thingsand whatever.I mean, they werethey were veryinvolvedpublicly. So to,you know, be ableto tell people,you know, thatthis is what'sgoing on behindclosed doors.Only my closestdearest friendsknew it and theyknew it becausethey'd have topick me up when Ileft the house.And, you know,thankfully I hadmy girlfriendslook veryclose to me.And so I was ableto walk to theirhouses and I walkin, you know,crying, you know,upset after beingthrown up againstthe wall and upby my neck.My necklace isbroken and I'mlike disheveledand I'm a messand I'm walkingand bawling and,you know, andthey're.But even theparents duringthat time, likemy best friend'sparents were indomestic abusesituationsbecause kidsdon't they'rethey attract.You know,vibrationally,you attract andtrauma bond tokids that aregoing through theexact same thingas you are.Yeah. Yeah. Andso that's whyit's so hard toto get out of itbecause it's sonormalized.You everybody'sgoing through itwhile everybody'sgoing througheverybody's dadkicks the shitout of them.Their mom's quietand the mom saysor the mom kicksthe shit out ofyou to and or themom says that youdeserve it.This is this iswhat's going onin all of thehomes of all ofthe girls that Iwas veryclose with.And my dad wasalso an alcoholicuntil I was hequit drinking, Ithink around theage of eight.But he still hada lot of violenttendencies likethe drinking wentaway, but theviolence didn'tend that.So does that makesense how I saidthat? It does.I was just I wasjust thinkingthat the thingabout as far aslike women goingback to abusivesituations, theyleave andthen go back.Sometimes ifyou're in anabusive situationand for you, thisis from basicallybirth and yourentire childhood.So it's all youknew, right? It'sthe foundation aschaotic andtraumaticas it was.It was thefoundation ofyour entireexistence. Andsometimessomethingdifferent thanthat can feelmore traumaticthan the comfort.You know, thismonster, thismonster you'refamiliar with.You know what toexpect. You knowthe rules. Youknow what hoopsyou have to jumpthrough and youknow what thefinal result willbe when you breakthe rules.But it's knownthat you don'tknow. And thatmight be morehealthy and thatmight get you outof thissituation.But it's such ahuge unknown andit's so oppositeof what you knowthat it's scariersometimes tofollow thathealthy path thanto just say where you are.So just to go offof what you'resaying is buildoff of that.Let's talk aboutthe nervoussystem andcortisolcortisol levels.So I'm raised andraised in thisenvironmentthrough myentire life.Right. So wheredo you think mycortisol levelswere allthe time.And so you tookme out of thatsituation and mycortisol levelsstarted to drop.And all of asudden my nervoussystem is goingwhat the fuck.This isn't whereI'm usedto living.I don't know howto survive likethis. So guesswhat I'mgoing to do.I'm going tocreate some chaosin your life foryou because Ineed to feelcomfortable.I need to feel uphere becausethat's the wayyour your yourbody is wired.Like everythingyour nervoussystem is wiredfor it and you'readdicted to thecortisol levels.Your body yourown body is andyou're killingyourself. Youdon't evenrealize that.But I thinkthat's anotherreason from thenervous systemstandpoint.When you talkabout women insituations likethis thatcontinue to goback to becausein some weird waythe body actuallycraves it.And which is outof your control.You know, I mean,to a certainextent, to acertain extent.You know what Imean? Like youit'sphysiological.It's sophysiological.Yeah. It's it'show an answer andsubconscious somuch as in deepin thesubconscious.And that allworks together.And I mean, myGod, you arehardwired.I mean, yourentire system.It's not evenlike you were youmarried into anabusive situationin your 20s.But before that,things were fine.This is yourentire existenceandessence. Right.Yes. Yes. So it'sit's only beensix years sinceI've been nocontact from mymy mother and mysisters.And so I'm 53now. And so I was47 when I went nocontact.And and I mean,there was thishuge event withmy mother thatlike wasorchestrated.So now my motherstarts. We get wego to track allthe wayforward. Right.Until just howwas I when myfather passedaway whenI was 42.Wait, I'm 53.It's twothousand. Yeah.If I was 43because it's been10 years. So hehe passes away.And I mean, it'slike there's theyin to the yangof therelationshipbecause my fatherwas more of apeacekeeper.Then I realizedwhen it came tomy mother, whichwas reallybizarre. Right.Because and shewas constantlytriangulating me and my mother.And she was alwaystriangulating meand my sistersagainsteach other.And talking aboutus behind ourbacks, she'd cometo my house.She talked shitabout my sistersand vice versa.And she she wasalways the heroin the situationsbetweenall of us.And she'd alwaystell us howfucked up mysisters are andhow fucked I amto my sisters.And so there wasthat that likeunderlyingpattern that wasconstantly therethat evenin my 30s,I was my firstdaughter. And Imean, I broughtto my sister'sattention becausethere was thisconstantenmeshment.There was thisthing like ifthere was anissue within thefamily betweentwo people, itwas everyone.It was all fiveof us. And myfather alwayswould call andsay, you know,your sister, youshouldn't havesaid that.And blah, blah,blah, blah. Andour parents werealways involvedin myrelationshipswith my sisters.And I mean, Ilearned at a veryyoung age that Icouldn't rely onmy sistersbecause theywould betray me.They would tellmy parentsanything that Isaid, anythingthat I did about,you know, and Iwould dothe same.So there was thisconstant. Wasthat always likefrom the startwhen you wereyoung, like likewhen you weresigning in thedark toyour sister,even then youdidn't have fulltrust in her. Ididn't with her.Her and I werevery, very closeall theway up to.I mean, we werealways close. Shewas always shewas veryprotective of mebecause I wasyounger than herand I have herbecause of herdisability.So we alwayswere. We werevery close. Butthat broke whenmy father passedaway because mymother, hertriangulationtook over like.I mean, she wasjust tell telllies and saythings that werecompletely untrueor exaggerationsabout me.So from the timeof childhood, youand that sisterwere tight andyou could trusther. And she'sgot you.Yeah. Take theolder sister outof this. So youwere like thatuntil you were43. Your dadpasses away andyour mom'snarcissism, Ithink, is whatwe're talking about here.A hundredpercent. You'renot sayingsomething. Yeah,I know you gentlywere like, Ithink that wassweet of you, butI know it comesin tofuck shit up.Oh, big time thatshe broke thatthat relationshipbetween you andyour sister.I don't know ifshe broke it.Yeah, I would sayat the end shebroke it becauseshe was lying sohorribly about meabout the thingsthat I was doingthings inrelation to myown daughters.She she just shepainted thispicture like Iwas this ravinglunaticalcoholic. Andand yeah, I hadissues withalcohol.There's noquestion aboutit. And my catmight count like,I mean, hello. Wedid a wholeepisode, Brian, Ion it of our own.We had, you know,I think it wasone of our copingmechanisms and itdoesn't mean wewere all ragingalcoholics, butwe might have allhad a coupleglasses of wineor a martini eachnight for quite awhile because ofall the shit.So a lot of uswere functioningor arefunctioningalcoholicsbecause of whatwe've gonethrough. Correct.So, you know, andit's funnybecause I wentinto I wentspecifically intocounseling with adrug and alcoholcounselor becauseshe was makingall theseaccusations.She was like,you're analcoholic, you'reabusive to yourchildren, you'refalseallegations. Andshe called CPS onme. And this waslike when Istarted callingher out.I started callingher out andasking for bettertreatment. I likebecause she wouldcome to my housewhenever shewanted. She waslike flirtingwith my husband.It was reallybizarre. Some oflike to thinklike he wastrimming ourhouse. He doescustomwoodworking. He'svery talented.And so he wasliketrimming our house.We had remodeledand she likewalked by it andshe like did thisthing where sheran her hand downand she was like,oh my God, oh myGod, it's just sobeautiful. Andshe like turnsand looks at himand I'm like, no,like what is happening here?Am I seeing whatI think I'mseeing? And sothen when I sothen she was likehis best friendand so sheinflated his ego.You know what Imean? Like shemade him feellike he was themost specialperson in theroom whilebelittling me.And so I hadtheseconversationswith her. I wentto talk to herone on one at herhouse and broughtup the situationand said, youknow, I'm feelinglike you onlytake Michael sideduringconversationsthat you're onlysaying thesecertain thingsthat you'retreatingme this way.And she sat backand she crossedher arms and shelooked at me andshe said, you'rejealous of therelationship Ihave withMichael.Insane. I mean,but this is likenarcissism101, right?Oh, 100%. So thenI start sayingthings I haveseen for bettertreatment. Okay,fine. Okay, fine.I can do that. Sothen she, shestarts textingbefore she comesover like twoseconds before, you know what I mean?But she's justsucking all theroom out of theall the air outof the room andsaying littlethings to metelling, youknow, I've atthis point in mycareer, I've beena special edteacher for 20years and shestarts telling mydaughters thatwere complainingabout teachersthe way thatthey're teaching,you know, kidsall kid, they all complain.They allcomplain, whichis perfectlynormal. And thenshe's so shestarts telling mykids what thebest way to for ateacher to teachis. And she doesthese littlethings, you know,where she's justlike plantingthese littlethings to wait tosee how I reactorrespond to her.Well, meanwhile,of course, she'sover and there'sabout a line overhere and glugglug glug glugglug glug glug,waiting, lookingfor the timewaiting for thisvisit to end. SoI understand howI look like analcoholic to her.Right, right. Butyou're justcoping. I'mcoping. Yes, shewas jealous. Shewas incompetition withyou and yoursisters rightfrom the start. Imean, we're talking.We're talkingprobably when amother is anarcissist tothat degree,their biggestenemy is usuallytheir daughter.And so it's oneof the reasons itmakes sense. Shedidn't defend youwhen your fatherwas abusing youbecause she sheshe they don'thave empathy fortheir daughters.They have noempathy. And Iknow it's hardfor people tounderstand thatdon't know peoplelike this. Butwhen you've knownpeople like this,it's it's almostsociopathic, Icall it becausethey really don'thave empathy andunconditionallove in any formfor theirchildren, butespecially theirdaughters, theirdaughters arecompetition. Andthen they playthe little gamesof pitting theirdaughters, theirsisters againsteach other.And they want tobe the hero. It'sall a game,right? Becausenarcissists getoff on that hitof reaction. Theywant thatreaction. Thebest thing youcan do to anarcissist is noreaction.It's not 100percent. 100percent. Sothat's why Istarted grayrocking. Right.At that point,I'm gray rocking.I wasn't evenconscious I wasgray rocking.Well, you know,the bottle ofRiesling Relaxwine is goingdown and I'mwaiting for herto leave. Andthen she hovers.She hovers likeshe literallywould go by myhouse after shewould leave. Likewe would move tothe back of thehouse and go havea fire. The kidswould be off, youknow, at afootball game orwhatever.But we would moveout to the fireuntil it waspickup time. Youknow, they got aride home fromsomebody else.And it got so badthat she thenthat that was thestraw when.So there was thatthat oneconversation Ihad with her. Andthen there waslike anotherblowout. We hadgone to New YorkCity for to watchthe Macy's Dayparade with ourkids, with myhusband's side ofthe family.And during thattime while I wasgone, my motherstarts telling mysister, my oldestsister, thegolden child, allthese horriblethings about methat I'm analcoholic. I'mabusing mydaughters.I had oneincident with mydaughter, whichstill to thisday, I stillgrieve, which iswas traumareenactment. Iwas grabbedby my throat.I can't even tellyou how manytimes when I wasgrowing up and Ihad a falling. Ihad an explosiveissue, you know,problem with mydaughterand my oldest.And I went afterher and grabbedher by a throat.Now this had thishad now,remember, I'mdivorced. So Ihave my ex answerto my husband hashis ex answer to.So there'sthere's a lot ofadults involvedin raising ourkids. And whenthis situationwent down, havingto having theshame around it,having to resolvewith my daughterhad nothing to dowith my mother.It had to do withmy ex, mydaughter, thekids that werewere there, whichnone of themother none of theother kids werehome during that.But of course,they heard about it.So it was it wasour immediatefamily. And soshe now two yearshad passed afterthat incident.And I still and Istill feel soincredibly guiltyand shameful forthat incident.I know why ithappened. Right.But that doesn'tmake it anybetter for mydaughter.Right. Right.But so she nowtwo years havegone by afterthat incident.And and I openedup to hervulnerably beinga mother tomother like youbeat the shit outof me like howmany times.And so I'm comingto you full ofshame and how toget through thisand how to workthrough this withmy own daughter.And she uses itagainst me twoyears later.So it tells methat nobody'snobody's therehelping out mydaughters. Shewould come in.She would comeover when Iwasn't there andwatch my girls orwhatever and likedestroy me infront of mydaughter's likethere's cobwebsover here.There's this andI mean, I don't Idon't live in anunclean. I left.I lived in abeautiful housethat we wereremodeling in avery fluent area.And we were wehad three girls.We wereoutnumberedrunning to allthe sports, threedifferent sportsevents. You knowhow it gets thecrazinessof life.No, my house wasnot perfect. Butit was like andso she wouldpoint thesethings out likewe would be wewould havebreakfast in themorning and gorunning out thedoor and shewould point thesethings out.Well, I wouldnever have leftthese dishes in asink like thiswhen your motherwas a littlegirl. And I'mlike they wouldtell me so theystarted tellingme the thingsthat she wassayingbehind my back.So she wasstarted to groommy daughtersagainst me anddaughters werewere telling youwhat she wassaying. Right. Sowasn't was ittotally not work.Was it notworking becausethey were comingto you with theinformation.Right.They did notstart. They didnot open up to meuntil I receiveda CPS call. Oh,my reportedagainst me. Andso we had becauseI'm a mandatedreporter.I'm a teacher.I'm a mandatedreporter. And sowhat does amandated reportermean? You seesomething. Youhave to saysomething. OK.OK. Legallylegally. You andI don't have to.OK. You guysdon't have to.You're done.So and so now Ihave CPS in mylife. Which isspecial. Right.You as a man.It's a huge deal.And so I'mfreaking out. Andso I'm talking tothe CPS workerover the phonewho tells me whatwas reported,which was mymother said thatI was drinking. Ihad that it gotworse that I wasabusing my childand it hadgotten worse.This was thething that echoedin my ears. Thelast thing thatwhy I knew it washer was becauseshe said for thelast four yearsit had been fouryears at thatpoint that myfather had died.And I was like,oh, so then Isaid, well, howdo we go aboutthis? They said,well, well, youhave two options.We can open upthe case andinvestigate andfind iteither that.And in fact, theallegations arecorrect or not.Or we could putyou we could havea counselor come.And I said, well,let's let's gothe counseling route.I was alreadylike on my wayinto counselingat that pointanyways. And andI thought itwould be healthyfor my daughtersand my husbandfor all of us asa family unit.And so by the endof it, I mean,they were like,yeah, if you getany more falseallegations, youjust let us know.This is how youyou go throughit, the processand so on and soforth. But Imean, she lookedat allegations.They know.Oh, 100 percent.OK, it's almost adouble. What youdid was a doublehit. And for lackof a better word,it was there's aninvestigation,but it's beingdone by thecounselor who'sembedded insidethe family.Exactly. What'sgoing on?Exactly. Somebodythere takingnotes andwhatever. Yeah,that makes sense.Investigation. Soyou were cleared.Of course. Yeah.Yeah. Yeah. So Imean, but that'swhen during thecounselingsessions is whenit all came outabout what shewas doing, whatshe was saying.The girls startedopening up moreand more and moreabout what wasgoing on behindmy back that Ididn't know andhow she wastrying to turnthem against meand the lies thatshe was tellingto to them, whichwere horrific.And I mean, thatlike the day thatCPS called was myfather'sbirthday. And sheshe called.So she was tryingto like pretendlike it wasn'ther and stillstay in my life.Right. So shemakes this call.She sends me apicture of me andmyself. I'msorry, me andmyself, my fatherand myself.And it's justthat. Just apicture of myfather and Itogether like andit's just herbirthday and it'shis birthday. But he's dead.She's like she'ssending it likememory, but shealso justreported used toCPS. Yeah. On thesame day, on thesame day. Yeah.So and then shecalls to ask topick up one of mydaughters to myyoungest, who shewas reallyworking hard togroom and to takeher to get hernails done, whichshe was reallygood at buyingthem things andgetting them to, you know,come with her todo things becauseespecially myyoungest whoreally lovedgetting yournails done, doingthings with withher. Yeah. And mymother would justpick at her toget getinformation. Andthen she wouldtwist it intosomething. Itwasn't. She wouldtell my oldestsister and I geta phone call frommy oldest sisteror, you know, andit was just itwas round andround. We went.So it was afterthat, like that.That was thefinal break. Iwas like,that's it.Like, are youkidding me? Likethe hell that myfamily wentthrough also myour access. Allof us had to gothrough for that.I was like, so Imy attorney, so Ican't I I have anattorney becauseI'm divorced, youknow, involvedwith the kids andthe custody andeverything. And Icontacted myattorney and hehe was like, youneed to set someboundaries with this woman.And he's like,are you serious?And like, so herecommended thecounselor. Hesaid, this is howwe're going tolayer this.You're going toget because I wasalready set upbefore all ofthis shit wentdown. I wasalready set up togo intocounseling withsomebody elsecompletelydifferent. Andbut it had beendelayed becausesomebody in thepractice had diedor something hadhappened wherethey had to takeon more clients.And so theypushed me back a month. So this happened.I love how theuniverse works,right? Like that.I'm already on myway intocounseling thathow breaks loose.And my attorneyis like, you'regoing into thisdrug and alcoholcounselor rightnow. I had myblood tested mymy urine. All ofthe results werenegative. I getin with mycounselor. I'm africkin mess. Icouldn't eventalk. Like I wasso beside myself.I couldn't evenpiece all of thistogether for him.He was just like,I'm going to do this.Yeah, write itdown. Like allyou do, but itwas like the bestthing he evercould have saidto somebody likeme who reallyenjoys writing.Right. So he'slike, take,you're going togo get a journal,go write fromyour earliestmemory of traumathat you, you canremember all theway up untiltoday. And Istarted laughing.I was like, Iwant to need morethan one journal.And he was like,what? I was like, yeah, I want to do that.And I was like,I'm serious.Like, so he wentthrough all ofthat. And then atthe end of itall, he was justlike, you know,and like, like aGoodwill huntingkind of moment.And you justlooked at meholding it. Andhe was just like,you know, you'rea good person.Like you, you, Ican't believeyou've held ittogether all ofthis time. Theway that thingshave been.I mean, it'sbecause if you goback to yourearliest memoryof trauma, it'sprobably as earlyas like two orthree, if I wereto guess, right?I mean, it'sthat early.Yeah, I, I don'tknow. I think atwhat the earliestone in traumajournal sittingright over there,I still have it.I think it wasaround, I wasfive. Okay. Frommy earliestmemory, I think Iwas fiveyears old.So when you thinkback about thetrauma of yourchildhood and youhad two abusiveparents, yourfather isphysically andemotionallyabusive. Yourmom's anarcissist. Sosevere emotionalmental abusethere. Was sheever physicallyabusive with you?Oh, yeah. Allthe, I mean, allthe time, like, Idon't say all thetime she wasn't,she was, uh,yeah, she was.Um, and the one,the one of theother thingsleading up to thegoing, I startedgoing low contact.When I started,when I was havingtheseconversationswith her, when myfather passedaway, he wasburied, um, inArlingtonnational cemeteryin Washington,DC. So we had togo through thisprocess twice. Solike he, he diedsuddenly.Like he wasdiagnosed withstage four lungcancer and 28days he died.He's died justgone. That's it.And so, which wasall like thatwhole situationwith my mother and my sister.The mass justcame right off.Like it was, itwas awful. Likewhile he wasdying. Um, andthen we go into,um, he, he dies.We, he is heldhere in, um, thecooler becausehe, he can't beburiedimmediately in Arlington.There's a waitinglist. Um, and sowe had to waituntil February.So he passed awayat the end ofOctober. We hadlike a funeral orawake here. Andthen, um, he washeld in thefuneral home andthen flown hiscasket to DC.And then we hadanother ceremonythere and there,um, we stayed ona Navy base, um,becauseeverybody'smilitary and myfamily. And so,um, not everyone,but my mother andmy oldest sisterare so wecan stay.We stayed thereand we, the daywe buried myfather atArlington, weall, we had likea dinner thingand then, um, wecame back to thebase and we'reallsitting around.Everyone'shaving, having adrink and I, the,the temperaturestarts to comeup. I start to,uh, you know, I'mstarting to feellike, oh shit,all hell's goingto break loose.I'm goingoutside. I'mgoing to go havea cigarette andgo outside andsure enough, mymother physicallyattacked my, mymiddle sister.And now thankGod, my kids aredown the hallway.They're in ourroom playing.They're oldenough to be atthat point to beleft just downthe hallway. And,um, and then myoldest sistercomes out and islaughing like,um, I'm justkicked the shitout of, you know,your sister.And I'm like, andI, I remembertoo, likethinking, like Iwent in to talkto her after andit was sonormalized by allof us to get theshit kicked out.We're grown womenwith children.Yeah. That's whatI was going toask you is if youcome from achildhood ofphysical abuse,take theemotional mentalabuse. Cause Ithink if there'sphysical abuse,there's mentalandemotional abuse.That just goeswithout saying,but if you comeand you have bothparents,typically with alot of people,it's one parentdoing it. You hadit from bothmother andfather. Um, butwhen someonecomes from achildhood ofphysical abuseand then youbecome adults,how, how do you align with that?How do you align?It sounds likeyou were the onlyone that waslooking aroundsaying this isn'tnormal. This iscrazy behavior.But then yoursisters and yourmom are like, oh,it's just, it'sjust what we doin our family.It's just how itis. So how does,how, how do you,um, why do youthink you're theone that was ableto recognize thisis not normalbehavior?Is it becausethat you were ona healing journeyand you weretrying to breakthe generationaltrauma and thecycle as aparent, did yourchildren inspireyou to, um, toget out of thiscycle? And like,why do you thinkyour sisterstayed inthis cycle?Well, I'm, I'mthe familyscapegoat forone. Um, youknow, obviouslylike I, and Ijust think thatthere's alwaysthat one in thefamily that looksat is able topull away farenough from it tobecome anobserver and go,this isfucked up.Like, you know,and then also,you know, being ateacher, workingin education andseeing, um, andknowing how to,how people,adults talk toeach other on aprofessionalmanner, um, howyou interact withchildren, so onand so forth.Um, that, thathas a lot to dowith it, which, Imean, when I gotmy bachelor'sdegree, whichtook me likeeight yearsbecause I wasconstantlyrunning, quittingcollege, droppingout, partying,living somewhereto be safe,coming back to college.It took me a longtime to get mybachelor'sdegree. And I wasthe first one inmy family. No, I,my sister, I'mclosest with, shewas the firstone. I was thefirst one to getmy master'sdegree. So, butwhen you're toldlike shittythings, like I'msitting with my,my father, myoldest sister,like, oh, youfucking think youknow everythingbecause you havea bachelor'sdegree now.I think you'rebetter thaneverybody, don'tyou? You know,and it's like, soit's, it's thatkind of thingwhen you're,you're in a, asystem like aneducation systemwhere it'sdrilled into youhow to navigate,um, conflicts andto honor kids.And how do we dobetter as adults?Um, you know, so,and you'reconstantlylearning your inprofessionaldevelopment,you're readingnovel after novelafter novel,you're constantlyreading your inprofessional,you're alwayslearning.So like for me,that became likesecond nature tome. You know whatI mean? So like,I'd see asituation and I'mlike, so then Istart going downtheserabbit holes.So you were ableto then reallyidentify what wasgoing on because,because would yousay that itclicked like ittook you theeight years toget yourbachelor's degreebecause you're,you're, you'recoping. Soyou're, you'recoming from sucha placeof trauma.And then nowyou're out in theworld trying todo things normiesdo when you're,and remember yourgen X too. So youhave the gen Xlevel trauma weall, most of ushave, right?And that's,that's hardenough. Like weall grind itthrough justtrying to benormal with ournormal gen Xtrauma. You haveit like 10 timeson top of that,the trauma. Soit's no wonderthe fact that youeven finishedcollege, I thinkis commendablebecause you werecoping withalcohol, you'recoping withdrugs, you'recoping withself-sabotage,all that stuff.But you get yourdegree. When didit click for you?Was it when youstarted teachingand being out inthe world andseeing howchildren aresupposed to betreated? Is thatwhen it clickedfor you and youwere able toidentify thisshit isfucked up.Or did you startrealizing it whenyou were incollege and youwere away fromyour family andyou were aroundother people orwere you withpeople who were also trauma?I think sheindividuated fromthe family unit,which gives youperspective.To a certaindegree, but notuntil she went nocontext, really.Oh, I think, Iwas going to sayearlier, but it'sjust beenflowing. It feelslike you set someboundaries withyour mom and thensheratcheted it up.And then shecalled CPS onyou, but youtried settingsome boundariesand it was like,no, no, honey.And then she wentin a little bitharder, itseems like.But I'm curious,when did she havethe light bulbmoment of?I think there wasa slowindividuation andthey sensed it toyour point.Let's lether answer.Yeah, I don'tknow if there waslike onespecific, youknow, it waslike, Ijust knew when,even before I hadkids, I I knewthat I didn'twant to raise mykids in anenvironment likeI was raised.And when my firstmarriage startedfeeling like theenvironment thatI was raised in,I left and waslike, this shitis not going tobe my story.I'm not, youknow, I'm notgoing to bedependent on, youknow, a man.I'm not going tobe dependent onanybody, youknow, becausethere's so Gen Xtoo, right?We're all likethat. We're like,yeah, you're notgoing to fuckingtell me I'm goingto be a mom anddo my own thing.But but I justsaw like somesome of thethings and it wasboth ways.You know what Imean? It wasn'tjust my ex. Itwasn't just me.It was both of usand the thefunction, thisthe dysfunctionand and justseeing it.I was just like,I don't want Idon't want thisto be my story.Well,what do I do?I'm thinking andI did a lot ofblaming on him atthe beginning ofthe divorce andand I tried towork throughthings and therewere changes fora certain amountof time.I had my ownissues, my ownself sabotage, myown infidelity.You know, I hadyou name it likeI was just I wasbreaking it apartjust as much ashe was themarriage.So then I getinto anotherrelationship andnow and I'm andI'm being treatedthe same way andI'm hearingalmost similarthings from bothof my intimate,you know,partners.And I'm like. Andall of a sudden,something startsto click withinme like, well,maybe it's notjust that maybeit is me.Maybe part ofthis is me. MaybeI need to godeeper and maybeI need toactuallyinvestigate whywhere thesepatterns arecoming from.Why am I likethis? Why do Ishut down? Why doI explode?Why do I? Why?Why? Right. Soand that's whenand my myhusband, I'llnever forget themoment I talkabout it in mybook when he justlooked at me.And now this islike four yearsafter my fatherhas passed thenarcissisticabuse is fullthrottle.And I mean, Ihave anxietythrough the roof.I am exploding atanything.I, you know, I amso completelydysregulated andliving 100percent insurvival mode andthrough thesubconscious.Right. So I wasnot agood person.I was notsomebody fun tobe around at all.And so and he'syou know, hestartedcalling me out.You know what Imean? Like, Ican't deal withthis anymore.Like somethinghas to change.And that's when Isaid, OK, I'mgoing to go intocounseling and,you know, thefunny thing.And then now youknow what happenslike. Right.Right. Right. Andnow we're dealingwith ourown issues.His father alsohad died eightmonths before myfather. So we hadtwo widowedmothers always atour house andtrying to setboundaries.Well, we have ourthree kids and wehave our exes andwe have jobs andwe're trying tokeep keep it alltogether.And it's justlike it just keptbringing upeverything justwas like thrownin my face, likeall at once.It was likeyou're going todeal with this.Like literallyGod was like,you're going todeal with this.You don't want togo to counseling.You're fine.Signed up forcounselingfor you.You know what?I'm going to putyou there sooner.You need to seethis right now.You need to seeit. I'm going togive it to youall at once. Likeyou've gotto see it.You've got to getout of thisrelationship.You've got to getbetter for yourkids and for youryour husband andfor yourself.So it's amazing.And let's throwin just keep inmind. Perrymenopause wasprobably startingto know 100percent.And that's andthat's not beoverstatedenough. That issuch a huge issue.I'm so glad youbrought that up.Yeah, that's sucha huge issuebecause thataffectseverything.So to me, itsounds like ittook most of yourlife toget there.It took it tookmost and tookuntil your 40s toto get therewhere you'relike,enough, enough.This is enough.And that youbecame the personyou needed foryourself.You protectedyourself. Youprotected thatlittle girlbecause now yourealize probablyno one's no one'sgoing to give mewhat I've beensearching for.My mom is nevergoing to give mewhat I need.She's never goingto give mewhat I need.My sisters arenever going togive me what Ineed. It'snot coming.I have I have togive it to myselfenough of thisshit. That's whatit soundslike to me.Oh, 100 percent.And I talk aboutthat in my bookwhere I say Ineeded to get asclose to thatlittle girl aspossible in orderto start thejourney.Yeah. So soyou're exactlyright. And that'sexactlywhat I did.I mean, that it'snot this kind ofhealing, thishealing work isnot for the weekof heart.You know, I'msorry, I'mgetting a littleemotional. No,no, no, no.Whenever I talkabout gettingclose to mylittle girl, Ialways getemotional becausemy heart breaksfor her.And I wish Icould. I'mgettingemotional. I wishI could go backand just give hera hug and tellher it's allgoing to be OK.I promise you,you're going toget everythingyou want. Youjust got to getthrough this.But we grew upnot knowing is itever going to beOK? And I don'tknow about you,but I had suicidal tendencies.I had suicidaltendencies forsure. Oh, I did.Definitely. Soit's I mean, Ifeel so many ofus are truesurvivors.Like it's legit.We're reallysurvivors. We wecould have easilynot have made it.Oh, I know. Iknow. And that'swhat I thank mycounselor forbecause he reallyhe really broughtthat to theforefront for me.He was like hewas the one thatplanted the seed,the original seedaboutwriting my story.He was like,Denise, you likeconsidering howsuccessful youare, like yourteacher, your youknow, you you'remarried, you havekids like, youknow, you have ashit together.Considering allof the shit thatyou have wentthrough, he'slike, girl, like,you really needto like honoryourself.Like it's kind ofa big deal. And Iwas like, youknow, and you'relike, yeah, well,I feel like forso many of us,especially Genexwomen, no matterwhat backgroundwe're comingfrom, we are justnow at midlifehonoringourselves.It is notanything we weretaught to. Infact, we weretaught theopposite. Don'tget too big foryour britches.Don't do your ownhome. All thatstuff. Do notcelebrateyourself.And then we webecame the peoplewe we needed forour children andmade sure tobreak thatgenerationalcycle and breakthe trauma.And we're justnow to thatpoint. But don'tyou find and I'vesaid this before,like, I didn'thave a blueprinton how todo this.Like sometimes,you know, peoplehave told meyou're such agreat mother orwife or whateveryou hear, likeyou were justsaying yourcounselor wassaying, you know,you look at you,you've done somany things.But it's like Idid. I built thismyself. I didn'thave a blueprint.And so sometimesit's like, becareful becausethis could allfall apart.I could go backeasily. Like thisis like somethingnot now. Butthere were yearswhere I'm like,listen, I'mfaking it till Imake it because Ino one taught mehow to do this.And I'm going byinstincts andwhat I wantedgrowing up. Butthat damagedperson is stillhere. So thatdamaged personcould still I canstill fall offthe thepath here.There was alwaysthat fear, youknow, becauseit's notguaranteed. Doesthat make sense?That makesperfect sense. Imean, especiallywhen you when youstartunderstandingyour own patternsand even evendrill down, likeyou were sayingearlier, like youstart drillingdown, you getdown into, oh, myGod, this is whyyou start realizing.Why, you know,you're where yourtrauma responsescome from andthen how toxicyour traumaresponses are.And then, youknow, oh, my God.So and, you know,so when you'velived like thatand you thinkabout the brain,you think aboutthe nervoussystem and thewiring of it alllike, you know,we had the cordswhen we werekids, you know,with the phoneand it had thatmemory in it.Do you know howhard it was tomake that cordstraighten backout? It's thesame thing withyour nervoussystem and thewiring ofyour brain.So that's why Igive myself gracewhen, you know,if I if I apattern shows upthat I'm not soproud of, I'mlike, fuck.But at the sametime, I'm like,Grace, give somecompassion toself like it'sOK. You know, Iknow where thiscomes from. It'snot an excuse.You know, it'sjust keep going.Yeah. So Itotally get it.It's a greatchance to alsosee how faryou've comebecause I used tohave it happenall the time.You know, in ouropinion of ourmarriage, like mywhole thing wasyou're leaving.So I'm going todo everything Ican because youjust leaveto sleep.There's always astrain. So Idon't care. Imight as wellmake it happenthat I controlover the outcome.Exactly.He talks by youleaving. Yeah. Hewas like, I'm notI think it took10 years and I'mnot kidding.We've beenmarried 31 yearstogether, 32. AndI think the first10 years of ourmarriage and wewere raisingchildren.And I was stilllike, any day nowhe's out. Oh, Iknow. And that'sexactly how ithow it's been.It's funnybecause myhusband, mycurrent husband,together, 13years, we've beenmarried 10.And the samething. Just go.Yeah. Just go.Like, why are youstill here? Whydon't you justgo? Yeah.Yeah. But so muchof it is whereour like it wasourselves. Andthen I mean,again, we're justhealing now,really. But thenyou could belike, OK, you'renot leaving.So now I need tofigure out how todo this, youknow, becausethis is like soit's so much.That's my pointis so for so manyof us that areGen X that didn'thave a blueprint,didn't have modelbehavior.But we know wewant to createthat so badly forour children. Andso we're like, Ithink we shouldbe so proud ofourselves becausewe the love wehave for ourchildren was soinspiring that ithelped us getover ourutter fear.Of doing thething we have noidea how to do.Oh, yeah. And bythe way, like ifyou told anybodythat you weregoing intocounseling,they're like,wow, she's reallyfucked up.Totally. Like nowthe youngergenerations havetotally, thankGod, have changedthe perspectiveon all of it withmental health.But you're right.But you're right.For Gen X. Yeah,that was aweakness. Youcould not tellsomebody that youwere seekingcounseling, likeeven like, Idon't know, 10years ago, youcouldn't know.And now recentlyyou can like, oh,good, good foryou. Like, youknow, but that'son themillennials andGen Z. They haveI hand that tothem. They have.I agree.100 percent. Imean, even our 15year old and he'sa boy and he'llbe like, I'mfeeling anxious.Like he'll say,I'm going to gobrush my teethand I'm feelingit's so naturalfor him to justtalk about hismental health.And it's abeautiful thing.Yes. Thank you,God, that thishas changed forthese kids. Imight forgetabout it. My 25and 28 year oldtalkabout it like.Yeah, exactly. Imean, that'ssomething thatfor sure I'vespent a lot oftime talkingabout with mydaughters, youknow, conflict,conflictresolution, beingable to have hardconversations,being open, notbeing afraid tohaveconversations,you know, allthat stuff.And, you know, Italk about theego death whenyou become aparent, too. Andbecause a lot ofpeople have kidsfor variousreasons, butthey're alwaysself centered.They're alwaysvery ego driven.You know, so whatwhat you dream upof your life andwhen you'rethinking aboutstarting a familyand you have thisvision, this, youknow, magicalplace that youand your childrenare goingto live in.And, you know,this idea of howit's going to godown and when itdoesn't startgoing that way.And what itreally actuallylooks like, thereare requires alot of you havingto put that egoaside and say,what does thiskid need?Who is thisperson in frontof me? And how doI how do I bethere for them tohelp them growand to developthe way that theyshould in ahealthy way? AndI think that, youknow, havingparents that werecompletelycontrolling likemine, acompletelyviolent fucked upsituation.I mean, and thenbeing able tolook at your ownkid and say,that's not gonnabe your story.Yeah, and I'mgonna fight likehell to make surethat it's not.Absolutely.Absolutely. Andyou know what,you just broughtup such a greatpoint becausebecause for thoseof us that didn'tcome from what wedreamt of wantingfor our children,we didn't cutthat so oppositeof where wecame from.It can be veryscary when youare working sohard to createthis wonderfulchildhood forthem. And when itdoesn't go thatway, it feelsscarier becauseyou're like, no,no, no, because Ineed it to bethis way becauseI came from here.I needed to staygood. I needed tosay it's lettinggo of that ego,recognizingthey're their ownperson,recognizingyou're theparent. Thisdoesn't have todo with you andhow you'refeeling aboutyour past. Youneed to honorthem and theirchildhood, theirexperience.That's a wholeprocess.Yeah, that'sfake. That'shuge. It is. It'shuge. I mean,even especially,you know, nobodytells you whatit's like whenthey get theirlicense and theyno longer need you.You know, likenobody preparesyou for that.Like, I'm nevergoing to get myoldest. They get,they jump in thecar, see youlater. And I'mlike, what thefuck justhappened? Whatjust happened?Did that justhappen? And thenthey're literallygone. And you'relike, oh, wow.And that, youknow, that slowrolling from thelicense, but ithappened soclose. Like youhave them,everything, you know, is huge.You know, it'susually, youknow, everybodyhas conflicts.Everybody hasproblems andissues, parentsand children.They do. However,you know, we wantto keep them to aminimum throughopen dialogue andconversations andall of thatgood stuff.But so like, butfrom the timethey're bornuntil about 15,you know, it'slike, okay, youcan navigatethrough thehormones, allthat. And thenwhen they getsix, for meanyways, this wasmy experience, 16years old.And then they gettheir car,they're gone. Andthen two yearsafter, and thenit's all theselast, and they'resenior years. AndI mean, it hitsyou so fast intwo years, it'snot even funny.And then they'reoff into collegeor, you know,they've moved outor maybe they'restill living withyou, whatever thecase may be.But you see themless and less andless and less.Yeah, no, it'strue. There is,that makes a lotof sense. Butthere is thatfrom birth to 15is kind of allsimilar. And then15 to 18, it'sall ratchet uplike that. Andthen they'regone. It is. Andthen raisingadult children,that's a wholenother phase. Youknow, it's crazy.But I do want togo back. So ittook you theeight years toget yourbachelor'sdegree. How manyschools were youat duringthat time?A lot. Not manyactually, wait,let me think. SoI was at acommunity collegehere locally.Then I went up,then I went toBuff State. I wasthere, then Ileft there andwent back to thecommunitycollege.Then I left thisarea and went upto theAdirondacks toNorth CountryCommunity Collegein Saranac Lake,which wasbeautiful,beautiful placeto our beautifularea to be.Although therewas a lot of LSDand mushrooms upthere during thattime period. Sothat was part ofthe problems andissues up there.Question for youon that. Wasthere anytherapeutic valuein that though?Absolutely.Absolutely. I'mthat girl that isstill eyeballingwanting to trythe ayahuasca.Because Iwouldn't do acid.I thinkit's too...That wasn'tnecessarily likethe best thingfor me at thattime. I know thatin hindsight,right? But as faras mushrooms,plant-basedmedicines, I'mall for it. Ilike to maintaina holistic styleas much aspossible when itcomes to cleaneating and takingcare of your bodyand those things.Don't tell me.Get me wrong. Istill drink and Ihave fun.I'm notcompletelystraight-edge.But I woulddefinitelypartake in someof thoseplant-basedthings again. Ido feel that itwas therapeuticat the time thatI really neededto destroy myreality from whatI wasactually living.Did you happento... Were you inthe Grateful Deadat all duringthat time? Yeah,very much. Verymuch. Do you seethe tapes aboveBrian's head? Inthe corner? Yeah,okay. Okay, sothat's a holderthat has like 200bootlegs.She had a ticket.I was driving up95 from Jersey toFoxborough and wescored Buffalotickets. Oh myGod. But then wegot to Foxboroughand traded myBuffalo ticketfor a show atFoxborough. Andthen we didn'twind up going upto Buffalo. AndI'd regret it,but here'swhat it is.I've only seenThe Grateful Deadin Buffalo. Isn'tthat funny? Andthe last one thatI went to, thelast show that Iwent to whenJerry was stillalive, if youdon't mind mesharing thisbecause it wasgreat. It wasperfect for usfor ourgeneration. Yeah,we love it.So of course Iwas like broke,super broke andwanted to go andeverybody wasgoing. We wereall going and Iwas like, "Okay,I'm going. So letme figure out howI'm going to dothis." So I livednearbyreservation andso went there,boughtcigarettes, twocartons ofcigarettes,invested mymoney, went upthere, soldcigarettes,$5 a pack.So it's liketripled my money,went and boughtmy ticket. Then,which is great,right? Like,"Okay, yeah,we're all in,we're all going."Well, there wereso many bunktickets sold andI had oneof them.That there were,I don't know howmany of us, therewere like 200 ofus or somethingin a large numberthat couldn't getin. And therewere people atthe gate. So thestadium wassurrounded by abig, tall gatewhile theystarted bangingon the gate. Theytook down thegate and ran intoa concert and Iwas followingbehind. Andthat's how thelast show I gotinto it.That is awesome.That is classic.I love that. Ilove that.What year wasthat? Late 80s orearly 90s?They had to belike 92 maybe.Okay, yeah.That's awesome. Iwonder if youhave thatshow on.I'm sureI'm fine.I'm up there.We'll have tolook and see. Ona side note, haveyou ever heard ofBilly Strings?I don't think so.Who's Billy Strings?Check him out.He's amazing.He's like, he'skind of,Brian gets...Technically he'sbluegrass.Bluegrass jamband, but reallyjam band. Likewe've gone, we'readdicted now.We're going tosee Billy Stringsshows like wewere dead shows.So he's worth youchecking out.Check out BillyStrings.I appreciate therecommendation.Probably St.Augustine, or no,St. Augustine,Tampa, thenSavannah,Georgia.But when I tellyou it'saddicting likethe dead, it is.He's amazing.He's the wholeparkinglot scene.See what? Early30s, late 20s,early 30s. Buthe's amazing.Amazing.He does some deadcovers sometimesor Jerry cover orFloyd cover.MoreDylan covers.Dylan covers. Butthey're amazing.So definitelycheck him out.I definitelywill. I startedfollowing Fishright after.Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.I was on a fishkick for a whilefor like three,four years.Was it all whileyou were goingfor your degree?Oh, yeah.Okay. So wheredid youeventuallygraduate from?From Buffalo State.Okay. From theAdirondacks. Didyou go back toBuffalo State?I did. And ofcourse I movedback in with myparents.The boyfriendthat I had atthat time, we hadbroken up. And sothen I called mydad to comeand get me.And I wasprobably at likerock bottom asfar as likedrugs, alcohol,like so strongout, it wasn'teven funny.And came home andthen I don'tknow, like sixmonths to a yearlater, I got intoanotherrelationship withthe guy that Imarried for myfirst marriage.We moved intogether.Real quickthough, when yourdad came to getyou and you movedback home, howlong had it beensince the lasttime you hadlived at home?Like two years.Okay. So andevery time youwent back home,was it the sameexact patternswith your parentstowards you?Yeah. So it wasyour, you're theproblem. You havea drinkingproblem. You needto follow ourroutine, our rules.I mean, at thispoint I was like21 years old. AndI'm like, ourcar, our rule,our house, ourrules, allthat shit.And I'm like,like they percurfew. And thesame shit juststarted allover again.Right.So like, youknow, it was,well, you don'tcome home when wewant you to, thenwe're going tobolt lock.You don't, I wasonly given it,there was twokey, two locks,one on the doorhandle anda bolt lock.And I was onlygiven the key tothe bottom, thehandle. I was notgiven a key tothe bolt lock.So if I wasn'thome and I was 21years old, if Iwasn't home whenthey wanted mehome, they wouldbolt lock it.So I was boltlocked out of thehouse. So I knewthat, and itwould be like twoo'clock.Two o'clock wasmy curfew. And Iwas like, I mean,I've just beenliving on my own.Like, I don't,you knowwhat I mean?Yeah. Wait. Sothey would waitup till two tobolt lock.Yeah, I think so.I don't know. Idon't remember,but I think hedid. My fatherdid. He wouldsleep onthe couch.He would waituntil he heardme. And, or hewould set analarm. I don'treally rememberexactlywhat he said.But yeah, well,if it was reachedafter twoo'clock, I justwouldn't go home.You know, I wouldjust stay with myfriends orwhatever.I was like,whatever I'mdoing that. Butit got, you know,it just, it justwould escalateagain. You knowwhat I mean?It was like, Iwould get my lifeback together. Iwould be on agood path.And then therewould be someconflict. Like Istayed out toolate or my roomwas a mess orwhatever.Whatever it wasthat they had anissue with. LikeI, and I wasgoing to schoolto become ateacher. And Imean, my fatherwould screw, youknow, because Iwas out partyingon the weekends.He would tell methat, you know, Iwas never goingto be a teacher,that I was aslut, that I wasstaying out inbars with boys,with guys andthis and that.And so, I mean,the final strawwhen I, hephysicallyattacked meagain. But thistime I was, I hadjust gotten outof the shower andI had a robot andI come out of theshower to go tomy bedroom.And he startedscreaming at meabout somethingfrom downstairs.And I was like, Isaid somethinglike, fuck you orfuck off orsomething.You know, I wasjust like, I'mtired of thisshit. And he camestorming up thestairs and I hadgotten into mybedroom and hegrabbed me by mythroat, picked meup and threw meonto my bed andmy robeopened up.And I was livid.Like that waslike, you havenow violated memore than you'veever violated mebefore. And Istood up and I onthe bed and I waslike, you everfuckingtouch me again.I said, I'mcalling thepolice, get thefuck away fromme, like right inhis face and waslike, you know,not even thisnice. You know, Iwas like, yeah, Imean, and and helaughed like asnipe,like, ha ha ha.And like walkedout of the doorand I was like,that's fuckingit. And I packedup my shit and Inever left back.And how old wereyou then?I was 21.Okay, so, so the,but that doesn'tmean that Ididn't have arelationship withmy parents. Thatmeans that Ididn't live withthem anymore.So when he cameto get you fromthe Adirondacksand you went toBuffalo State,were you stillliving withhim? Yeah.Okay. And thenwhen you grabbedmuting, you werecommuting. And sowhen yougraduated fromBuffalo State,were you stillliving with them?No. So I cameback, I got backinto BuffaloState. I wasliving with themfor, I don'tknow, a semesteror two. And thenI waslike, I'm done.And I was datingsomebody and thisis how it wouldgo. Like I wouldrun to whoeverfor safety that Iwas with. Andwhether therelationship thatI was in washealthy or not, Iwas just runningfor safety, whichI didn't evenrealize, right?Right. Right.You're just, it'sa different home.You just need,literally need tobe in a differentspace for yourown safety. Andprobably thoserelationshipswere totallyfucked up too.But again, that'show bad itwas at home.So when you weregoing to BuffaloState and youmoved out and youmoved in, wasthat your firsthusband that youmoved in with?Yes. And so howdid you meet him?We had workedtogether. That'show we originallymet. We actuallywent to highschool together,which I didn'treally know him,like when we werein high school.And, but weworked togetherwas like how Igot to know him.And then I'm at alittleconvenience storehere inYoungstown.Okay. So you wereworking. It waslike a grocerystore, like alittle minigrocery store.And he was themanager and he isa year youngerthan me. And sowe, and then Isaw him out onenight and we juststarted talking.And I don't, andthen it just kindof went fromthere. Like we,we all had, wehad a bunch offriends incommon. And sothen we juststarted hangingout. We starteddating. And thenthere was aperiod where webroke up, which Iprobably shouldhave stayedbroken up, butdidn't, you knowwhat I mean?Went back again.Yeah. Yeah. Andthen we got backtogether and thenwe moved in together.Okay. And thenyou werecommuting toBuffalo state.Correct. Right.Was he also goingto school? No, hewas, he wasworking. He was,he works in atrade. Okay.Okay. And thenhow, how longuntil from youguys livingtogether, did you get married?Like seven years.Oh, you livedtogether forseven years andthen got married.Yeah. Yeah. Ithink it was likeseven years. Itwas a long timeduring that time.Or did you? No,not until we gotmarried, did wehave kids? So Imean, I was 20,21 around then.And then I didn'tget married untilI was 28.And did you wantto get marriedthat whole timeand he didn't orreversed or didyou both just notwant to getmarried duringthat time?Really what Iwas, I reallywasn't adiscussion. Like,I mean, wediscussed it andeverything, but Iwas kind ofwaiting for it tohappen. And thenI, once I gotclose to me,finally finishingmybachelor's degree.I was like, Idon't want tostay here. Like Idon't want tostay in New York.And, but here Iam, I'm stillhere. And I waslike, so, like,unless this isserious, andwe're going totake this to thenext level, likeI'm, I'm going tolook for teachingpositions like inthe Carolinas orsomewhere. Andthe next thing Iknow there was anengagement ring.I was like, okay.Okay, so then youguys got marriedand you hadmentioned that hewas similar toyour father oryourmother or both?Yeah, it wassimilar to my, mydad in that notin the violentwas not violent.No. But just inthe controlling,in controllingand making peoplefeeluncomfortable.Like, coercivecontrol.Mm hmm.And was thatcomfortable? Doyou think you,that like wetalked aboutbefore, asopposed to goingfor someone whowas the healthyopposite of whereyou came from,was your firsthusband, just acomfort, comfortabletraumathat you knew?Yeah, 100%.Yeah. Yeah. Um,and then how longfrom the time youguys got marriedto you havingyour children?We had our kidslike right away.So like twoyears, I think wewere married fortwo years. Andthen so I had myfirst daughterwhen I was 30.And then my next,she was 18 monthsapart from hersister. Yeah.So I had that Iwanted to have mykids like rightaway that I'm inhindsight, like,you know, theylike, I know nowwhy women taketwo years to lettheir bodiesfully recoverafter having achild thatneeds it.But no one talkedto us about that.No, no, no, no,no, no, no, no,no, no,no, no, no.How did becominga mother change you?I was just mademe way morecompassionate,empathetic. Ithink I've alwayshad that kind ofin me anyways.But, you know,just wanting tobe better, likeoverall, justwanting to beabout a personjust wanting togive them thingsthat wedidn't have.And for me was just a stable life. Yeah. Yeah. Andwe've kind oftouched on thatalready a littlebit of thatinspiration andeverything. Sowhen yougraduated fromcollege, did youget a teachingdegreeright away?So the way itworks in New YorkState is that youget certified. Soyou get yourdegree and thenyou get yourcertifications.So I was able tostart working right away, which I did.And then I gottwocertifications,one in elementaryeducation, one inspecialeducation. So youhave yourbachelor's degreeand your twocertifications soI could teach inboth of thosesubject areas, soto speak.What made youchoose specialeducation?Because I alwayssay I have twosisters who areseverely mentally and physically disabled.But I always saypeople who workin specialeducation areangels on earthand it takes avery specialperson to do thatand to make thatchoice. Whatmotivated you tochoose that path?My sister.So because yoursister was deaf and you grew up with that.Yeah, exactly. Imean, Ioriginally wasgoing to become ateacher of thedeaf. So thepathway was tobecome first getmy specialeducation degreefor my bachelor'sand then mymaster's degreewas to getcertified toteach deafstudents.And then it justkind of.I don't know whathappened, but atsome point therewas a break whereI was like,probably becauseI had been in itfor eight years,I was like, I gotto do something.I got to finishthis out.And I mean, Istill finished itout huge with twocertifications.It just wasn't.There was a lotmore workinvolved inbecoming ateacher for thedeaf and at thattime I just didn't have it in me.I was like, I,it's been eightyears. I need toget my degree andget working andmaking some realmoney because Ihad waitress likethe whole timethrough mythrough college.So I worked onthe weekends andyeah. Yeah.Yeah.Well, she'd beengrinding always.Well, with somefucked up stuffin the back.Yeah, absolutely.So, well,probably though,being a teacherin specialeducation, youdo, do you workwith somechildrenwho are deaf?I've no, not atthe time Iworked, but no, Ihaven't workedwith any kidsthat are hearingimpaired or deaf,but no, right nowI work withchildrenwith autism.And a lot of, alot of issues are speech delays.So, you know,like currently, Ijust think thatsign languagewould really,really benefit alot of kids inthis populationtoday becausethere is a lot ofdifficulty withchildren ofautism expressingthemselves.And so just, so Itook a break forthree years. SoI've just returned to the classroom again.And I really havelanded my dreamjob. I love thispopulation ofkids. They, theyhave huge heartsand it's just agreat career. I'mjust happy to bethere and I'mhopeful.You know,hopefully I cancontinue to workin the positionthat I'm in andthen just retireeventually. Right? Isn't that the goal?But I do lovethis population.Well, it's funnybecause you knowhow life shifts.So you know what,where my originalthought was andmy, myinspiration forgoing to collegeto become ateacher startedwith my,my sister.But as you go onyour path andyou're travelingalong and it'slike, well, thisis, this is whatI, you know, this is what was offered at the time.It was alsorecommended toget bothcertificationsbecause it mademe extremelyhireable becausewhen I graduatedat that timeteaching was notlike it is todaywhere you canwalk in and get ajob almostanywhere becausethe needis so high.There was, youknow, you wouldbe put into apool with 500other peopleinterviewing forone position, ifnot more thanthat. So I had tomake myself, I had to make myself a teacher.Yeah. Yeah.During that timewhen I, yeah.Yeah. I don'tfeel like thespecial ed was aswell funded as Iremember my dadused to say, ifyou want adefinite job,because he wasobviously afather tochildren who weredisabled.He's like specialed going specialed becausethere's so fewpeople that trulychoose that path.But you're sayingthat wasn't aguarantee for you to not it.Not in New Yorkstate and not inNew York state atthat time. Imean, now there'sa lot moreopenings for aneed for specialeducation. Alsothe autism, youknow, it hasrisen atastronomically.So the need anddemand is there.So on that note,so you've beendoing this for 20years. When youfirst started,did you see, didyou have as manykids on theautism spectrumas you do now?No,absolutely not.What's yourpersonal opinionon that?As to why?Yeah. If youmight, you don'thave to share itif youdon't want to.I know I'll becompletely honestwith you becauseI've watched it.And I, you know,it's funny, I'mjust gonna befrank, I think ithas a lot to dowithvaccinations.Andunfortunately,you know, I, andI think there'smore and moreevidence that'scoming out now tosupport that. Ithink that a lotof things weresuppressedin the public.But I mean, youknow, talk to anyteacher that'sbeen in theprofession for aslong as I have oreven longer. AndI mean, they cantell you that theincrease ofautism hasincreaseddrastically in each district.So districts inNew York State,the way that theywould handlethings in regardsto specialeducation is theyhave like alocalized centerlike called BOCEShere in New York,where they wouldsubcontract them.They're like ahub of likespecial educationteachers. Andthey haveclassrooms thatthey they makebased on need,and the districtssubcontract themto educate the kids.Now districts,they're sothey're sooverfilled theBOCES is sooverfilled andthen districtsare paying outover and over andover so kids aregoing out ofdistrict rightfrom their homeschool to geteducated,especially students with disabilities.Now, a lot of inNew York State, alot of thedistricts aremoving to open upclassrooms withintheir districtbecause thepopulation andthe need is sobig. It hasgotten so bigthat it's notjust, you know,1% or 2% of thepopulationoverall.So they have to,they, somedistricts can'teven afford tosubcontractsomebody else totake on thosestudents of need.So they'rebasically,they're nowcreating theirown classroomswithin theirdistricts tosave money.I have aquestion. Soyou're sayingthere's a realneed therebecause there isan argument thatfrom one sidethat would saythere's justbetter diagnostictools, there'sbetterrecognition.It's always beenthe samepopulation, butwe've just nowidentifiedbetter today.I don't believethat. But I don'thave a feelingyou don'teither. Right.No, no,not at all.The population has grown andit's a real big,it's a biggerchallenge,I guess.Oh, absolutely.And I mean, youknow, I rememberI was teaching ata school inBuffalo and Imean, my, as aspecial educationteacher, you hadkids that hadspeech delaysthat, you know,they had physicalimpairments.Autism, like evenwhen I was like abrand newteacher, wasn'teven a thing,right? It wasn'teven like on likea diagnosis here.So I got mymaster's degreein 2004. Igraduated. So Istarted teachinglike 2000.And I've taken,so I've takentime off for mygirls. I had mygirls and so it's25 years. And sowhen you'relooking at likethis long span,because remember,I was also like,when I was goingto college, I wasinclassrooms too.So I had tostudent teach, Ihad to observe, Ihad to so put allthose years in there too.90s, yeah.So now we're allthe way up to2025. And Irememberspecificallywalking down andlooking at mycaseload of thespecial educationkids on my listand how it hadchanged intwo years.And I was like,and I and there'sthis diagnosisout there nowcalled autismthat's put onstudents, IEPsand an individualeducation planthat we have.And I'm like, sonow this is likethis new thing,right? So we'rebeing trained andso on and soforth. And you'rewatching now atthat time, theywere like, I hadtwo kids out oflet's say 20 onmy caseload. Nowit's like thecompleteopposite. Likeyou only havekids that arespeech, like twokids with speechlays or, and therest areall autism.Wow. Wow.I think back tolike when we werekids, we had aclass for specialneeds kids. Andthen I can thinkof at least acouple kids whomaybe wereborderline that,you know, they'rea littledifferent.That's what wesaid, right?They're a littledifferent.Or slow, right?When we said itwas slow.But maybe theywere autistic, ifyou think, I'msure they were,honestly.Well, we all hadvaccines, right?Like, but I don'tthink the same.And even myoldest born in,and my daughterwas born in 2000.They were given adecent amount ofvaccines.Right. But eventhe vaccineschedule betweenwhen our kidswere gettingvaccinated to nowis vastlydifferent, hasincreased liketimes 10.Are you alone inyour thinking inyour professionon that?Or is it?I don't really, Idon't reallydiscuss thosekinds of thingswith, you know,my colleagues. Ijust don't. Ithink that we allhave our ownpersonal researchand things thatwe look at andour own beliefs.And I just thinkit's better notto share some ofthose thingssometimes withpeople that youwork withbecause, youknow, there'sjust, there's somuch information.There's so muchtoxic energy inthe air alreadybased on thepublic, you know,like what's goingon with politicsand all of that.And so, you know,I like to work ina harmoniousplace andexpressing how Ideeply feel aboutsomethingsometimes is justnot the time orplace, right? So.It's not going tosolve anything orgo in the air.It's not going to solve anything.We're there forthe kids. We'rethere to bepresent. We'rethere for what's in front of us.I really, I loveyour idea thoughabout teachingnonverbalautistic childrensign language.Has that, is thatbeing discussedat all? Is thaton theradar at all?So it's, it is.And the funnything is, is thatI just received asurvey from ateacher that's acoach, a specialeducation teachercoach. They coachspecial educationteachers, butthey're alsoworking with somestudents.And they're also working with somestudents in anearby universityand they came upwith a surveyabout it. Sobecause I workedsummer school andthat was my firstlike time backwith students andit was 100% likelittle babies, likefive-year-old,four,five-year-oldautistic kids andseveralnonverbal.And I used mysign languageskills tocommunicate withthem. And theyalso, but I thinkthey also had alittle bit ofbackgroundbecause it's so,it's so easy tocommunicatethrough signlanguage, right?So they, thesurvey, back tothe surveythough, they're,the college kidsare thinking thattoo, becausethey're like,what do youthink? Share yourthoughts. Takethe survey abouthaving studentswith autism havelearned signlanguage.And I'm like, ahundred percent.Hell yeah.Like, yes.It's a nobrainer.Yeah, it's a nobrainer.Yeah.Like, why is iteasy tocommunicate?Well, theyaren't verbal.So you wouldn't,you wouldn't notspeak. Youwouldn't notspeak. Like youstill speakbecause they readyour lips, readyour face, readyour expressions.That's, that'spart ofcommunicating,right?So just, I justthink that upondiagnosis, thatshould be thefirstrecommendationfor the entirefamily becausethen they canlearn tocommunicate withone another.And then, youknow, a kid isput into aclassroom with ateacher that nosign language andyou're signing.It doesn't meanthat you're,you're notteaching. You'renot talking.It's just thatthere's thatadded layer ofcommunicationwith sign. So thekids in theclass, you couldhave acombination ofkids in a varyingdegree of levels,but maybe theydon't need, maybesome kids don'tneed the signlanguage.Others do in theclassroom, buteverybody'sgetting the,everybody isgettingcommunication.Part of it.And it gives thatchild a chance tocommunicate back.It's not allautism is, isspeechless.Correct. Right.That's why I'mcurious. Yes.Yes. The scribemakes perfectsense. It's justanother mediumand when you'retrying to connectwith people.100%. 100%. So,so when you firststarted teaching,you were stillmarried, you'rehaving yourdaughters. Howlong were youguys married?How long was Imarried for myfirst marriage? Ithink 10, 11years. So youguys weretogether like 17,17, 17 years longtime. So who, howdid that go downwith the divorce? Did you initiate that?Yeah. Well, therewere lots of,lots of problems.We were having alot of problemsin our marriagefor severalyears. It wasn'tlike a, like a,all of a suddenout of nowhere.And so I wasstill havingdifficulty withmy family always.And also withjust being a momand feeling very,very left alone.And because I hadgiven up teachingat that time, Iwas also, and soI wasn't working.So I was verydependent on him. He was very controlling.And in regards tomoney and thingsof that nature.And who I spentmy time with, itwas a big deal.And also whenevermy friends cameover, he was veryrude to myfriends and coldand like theyweren't there orwould belike, Oh, hi.Right. You know,so and so therewere, there werea lot of like issues, a lot, a lot of issues like that went across a lot of issues.Like he had hisown set of issueslike I did. And Ijust resolvedmyself one day tolike, this is, Iguess this iswhat marriage issupposed to be like, where you're just alone and you're like raising your kids because he never wanted to go anywhere or do anything as far as like, like take the kids. So if we, we got a couple, you know, like, I'm like, I'm not going to do anything.Like, it's always like, I don'twant to hang outwith them. Like, I mean, literallyI had like verylittle socialengagement goingon when I neededit the most, whenmy kids were little. And soand taking thekids out of the way, I was like,okay, we canfigure out whatit was like.Our kids willhang out withtheir friends.Afterwards, itwas always theirfucking assholes.I don't want tohang outwith them.Like, I mean,literally I hadlike very littlesocial engagementgoing on when Ineeded itthe mostwhen my kidswere little.So, and to gethim involved init was horrible.And so then I waslike, fine,I'm just going tomakemyself happy.Now there hadbeen many times,manyconversations,like let's justsend us, let'sget a divorce.This is how we'regoing to do this,blah, blah, blah.And then we wouldwork on it again.Things would begreat for aperiod of time.And then theyweren't.And then when Ifinally resolvedmyself to like,this is just whatmarriage issupposedto be like,and I'm going tomakemyself happy.And I'm going totake mydaughters, evenif it's hard,to do it all bymyself, towherever,to eventsand to things.And I starteddoing that andgoing outon my own.Of course, then apup popssomebody elsethat is goingthrough a divorcethat I had beenfriends with allthroughhigh school.Like we were bestfriends when wewere growing uptogether.And he's goingthrough the samething, right?And so then thisrelationshipstarts.Now it's not likeinstant,but the sexualtension,everythingis there.And it's like,this isgoing to go bad,if I don't getaway from thisright now.And so I do, andI'm committing,recommit myselfto my marriageand so onand so forth.And then it justkeeps going.I was like, okay.So I startedcheating on myex-husbandwith my currenthusband.And then I brokeit off with himand was like,I need to fix mymarriage.And then I waslike, thismarriage is notrepairable.Like I can't livewith this.He doesn'tdeserve this.We gotta go,like enough.There's littlegirlsinvolved here.And they don'tneed to live withus in thisresentmentand all ofthis shit.And I was like,it's time to go.So I laughed.I said, I want adivorce.He was willing torepair andeverything.And I was like,we bothhad changesthat we neededfrom one another.And I just don'tthinkemotionally,we weremature wise.We were like ableto do that.There was nodiscussion abouthow either one ofour traumashad impacted ourlives either.So it's justlike, you'refucked up.You're fucked up.Okay,let's break up.And that thewhole thingfalls apartbecause it's yourfault, not mine.Yeah, exactly.But there wasalso thatsimilar patternfrom yourrelationship withyour parents.It's bad.Then you leave.Things, you thinkthey'regonna be better.You goback, it's bad.It sounds likeyour marriage waslike that too,where it was badand then it wouldget betterand then bad andgive it that typeof thing.So it's a similarpattern, whichmakes itwhy you stayedin it so long,because again,it's allyou knew.But then youreachedthat point.Now your currenthusband, you saidthere was thatfoundationof friendship andall that.Does he also comefrom trauma ordoes he come?Like I can speakfor Brian.Brian came from avery traditional,there's not thatthere'sno issues.He's an avoidant.I'd issue free.Yeah, yeah.So we dealwith that.And there wasn'ta lot ofcommunication,all that stuff.But in general,that traditional1950s parents aremarried.Healthy.We spoke enough.Healthyfamily, right?So he comes fromthe exactopposite of mybackground,which was trauma.So for yourcurrent, and itsounds like yourfirst husband,trauma, trauma.For your currenthusband, does hecome from moreof thattraditional ordoes he alsocome from--He comes frommore of atraditional,but highlyavoidant, thesamesituation as Brian.Yeah, absolutely.Same situation,but you wouldn't,like when youlook at mytrauma, right?We don't wannacomparetraumas here,but at the sametime, like, Imean, sometimesyou gotta,you knowwhat I mean?Like my traumawas worse thanyour trauma.But I think youmight have a legto stand on that.You got agood thing.(laughing) But at the sametime, it's funnybecause when westartedunpacking,so when thingsstarted goingsidewayswith my currenthusband, withMichael,him and I,it's like, you'refucked up, no,you're fucked up.Like, and we werelike, we're bothfucked up.Like weboth knew it.Was that withyour firsthusbandyou're saying?No, with mycurrent husband.Like, okay, wegotta dosomethingabout this.Like, we're gonnaworkthrough this.Like, he alsocame from, hewas, you know,this is his, he'sbeen divorced,remarried.So he's coming atthe same angle asI am like,fuck anotherfailed marriage,like I can'thandle this.Like, we gottatake a deeperlook atourselves.And so when allof the shit wentsidewayswith my mother,I had to makethat pointtoo that I,because my motherwas triangulatingmy sisterswas the pointthat Ihad to tell,I had to cut bothof my sisters outof my life.I couldn't haveany contact withany of thembecause I neededhealing so badthat Ididn't want,I didn't want thecontact.Like, because Icouldn't takehearing from myone sisterabout bullshitthat my motherand myoldest sisterwere telling herlies and thentrying tohave to explainto her why I washealing, right?Like, shedoesn't, shedoesn't, mymother, myoldest sisterlived here inthis area.So we werephysically in thesame roomstogetherwhere she livedacross country inIndiana.So she washearing thingsfrom all of us,you knowwhat I mean?And trying todiscern what wasgoing onwhere she wasalways myprotectorand would helpmediate as themiddle childoften didand does.And so she, butwhen there wasthat momentwhere my motherstarted tellingso many liesabout methat she started,now it was like Iwas gettinggang bulliedbecause shejumped in.So it was mymother, my oldestsister and mymiddle sister.And that's when Iwas like,that's it.I have to cutthis out.So, and then whenwe were talkingabout that breakand then gettingback to myhusbandand, you know,and him thinking,oh, it's just,she's beenthrough all ofthis trauma.And I'm like,wait a second.You were therewith me throughall of it.Like, thisaffected you, thisaffected our kids,this affectedeverybody, notjust me.And also thenwhen we startunpackingand reallygetting into ourown traumas,what's consideredtrauma orconditioning,subconsciouspatterns,avoidantbehaviors,attachmentstyles, traumabonding,codependency,you blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.And then we'relike, oh shit.Yeah, but he waswilling to unpackthat with you.So I think ittakes, I think itonly worksif both peopleare willing tolook in themirror and say,okay, I gottaunpack my shit ifI'm gonna save mymarriage,if I'm gonna savethisrelationship.And it has tostop with this isyou, this is you,this is you.But it soundslike you also,you had a lotgoing on inthat moment.You had thebetrayal of yoursister you wereclose to.That was abetrayal, loss oftrust, right?That's a loss.That's huge.And then you alsokind ofwent no contactin a way to saveyourmarriage too,because you hadto kill yourselfin order to saveyour marriage.Yeah, and to be abetter mother tomy parents.You know, whenyou're surroundedby dysfunctionlike thatandnarcissistic abuse,and I don't thinkthat people talkabout it enough,what happens tothe brain and howyou're aamygdala,like I can'tremember it.It's eithershrinksor swells.I mean, this ishow like deepinto the brain,psychologicalabuse reallyaffects peopleand how peoplejust losetheir shit.They walk aroundfull of rage andcompletelydysregulated.And they thinkthat you're theproblem.You're the toxicone and reactiveabuse, right?And that takes along time when,you know,you've been, youdon't go nocontactfor 47 years.So think aboutthe wiring ofyour brain, theswelling,and also yourprefrontallobe, like,stops operating,like, I mean,you're like,if you look at,and there's justmore and moreresearchthat's coming outabout what thiskind ofabuse doesto your brain andyour body.And it's, and it,every time I heara little snippetsof it, I'm like,I can't, I can'teven hear anymore of it.You knowwhat I mean?Because it's justhorrifying.It is, and it'soverwhelming.I mean, did you,so you went nocontact at 47.Yeah.And you're 53.I'm bad at math,but is thatsix years?Good job.In those sixyears, have youphysicallyseen a changein yourself asyour nervoussystem hasregulated?Yeah, a hundredpercent.I mean, my, solike, evenright now,like, on being onthis here withyou, like,you know,I said I was a little nervous.And I talk about,I had areally bad,and I still haveit a little bit,I have ahead tremorwhere like, Iwouldtwitch like thiswhen I was veryheightenedand upset.And so that, thepsychologicaldamagethat started likeright after myfatherpassed awayand the abuselike reallyramped up.And it just gotworse and worseand worse.This liketwitching, Iwasn't evenconscious to it.I didn't evenknow it washappening.And that's howdysregulated andwhat happens tothe bodywhen you'reliving in thissevere of asituation,you're not evenalert to it.You're just like,oh, I just havethis new twitch.Like, no, you arepsychologicallylikephysically damagedfromnarcissistic abuse.What's dyslexia'samount of burn?Yeah, 100% and itall livesin the bodyand the bodyremembers, right?So, itkeeps the score.So it's like,when you, so likewhen I, forexample,when I read, thebody keepsthe score,which has been ahuge influence,you know,that was like my first one.So I read two books, the body keepsthe score thatwas moreabout Torontorelated tomy father.And then I readOut of the Fog byDana Morningstar,which is aboutnarcissisticabuse.And so when Istarted goingthrough,like to healmyself, right?To learn morepluscounselor plus,and I added alayer ofa mentor.I mean, I wasjust like, Ican't standmyself anymore.Like I just need,I need like peace and calm and harmonyin my life allthe time in orderto heal.And so, I mean,my nervous systemwas shot, shot.But there's beena huge change.I mean, I am notreactive, youknow, toanything.And that's what Italk about a lotin my bookis how to get tothatplace, right?And nervous system work and, you know,in nervous systemwork andmeditations,and it's justcan't be anyspecific, anyrandommeditations.Like I reallydrill down inthese things inmy coursesbecause of whereyou have tounderstandwhere yournervous systemstate is.You can't justlay down and takeand domeditation.So there's just,there's somany thingsthat are involvedwith healing, butat the same time,like it's, I didit in hyperspeed, I think.I'm not gonnaedit your book.Do you talk aboutthat inyour book?Where you, how toidentify whereyour nervous,the state of yournervous system?I don't, I talkabout it in myfree course.It's calledresurrect thenervous system.And so I was ableto, a somatictherapist that I,I reached out toher because Ifound this charton how toidentify whereyou are, right?That she made,she designed, andI got permissionfrom her.Her name is RubyJo Walker.Thank you, Ruby.So grateful foryou if you'relistening.Littleplug for her.But anyways, so,and I mean, youcan Googlethis too.You can Googlethis, this chart,but it'sreally greatbecause it showsyou like yourphysicalsymptoms,like what'shappening withyour mood, youremotions,and so onand so forth.And it's like abell curve goesup and itgoes down.And then like redis likedown or no,at the bottom islike, you know,you're regulatedup here.It's like you'rein fight orflight up here.It's like you'rein freeze, likecompletecollapse.And then it givesyou each of yourphysical symptomsalong the way.And, but as faras likemeditations andthings that,I don't thinkthat enoughpeople, you know,you read like,how do you,whatever, calmyourself,you coerceall levels.I'm in menopause.I need tolower those.Okay, meditate.Okay, but theydon't talk aboutexactly how tomeditate.And these arethings like Iread in depth.And I knowbecause I'veexperiencedit myselfin regards tomeditation isthat yourbrain wavesoperate indifferent statesand, you know,high beta, beta,alpha, and theta,like low theta.Like, so whenyou're sleeping,you're inlike theta,in a dream state,when you'reregulated,you're in alphaand then beta,high beta.And if yournervous system isin, if you'redepressed,let's say you'redepressed, you'remore in theta.Your brain waveshave slowed down.You're alpha,you're operatingat a good,healthy level.You're in highbeta, you'reanxious.So if you put ona meditation,where yournervous system isdysregulated,and you put onsomething that'sthevibration levels,match your brainwaves andhurts, right?So you putsomething on,it'salready high beta.Do you thinkthat's going tosoothe yournervous system?So that's whatlike people justlike randomly putout therelike, oh, justmeditate.Like there's moreinvolved tomeditatingthan that.And people, youknow, I think Iripped offbecause I knowenough peopletalk about thatit matterswhat, when youenter themeditation,where yournervous systemstate is,where your brainwaves are,and how to getyourself backinto alphaand to bring youback to center.And so I talkaboutthese thingsin the resurrectyour nervoussystem course,which is free.And also howimportant it isto recognize,to bringself-awareness towhere you areso that you'renot furtheragitatingand alreadydysregulated.I don't know whymeditation is notworking for me.No, it's notworking for youbecause you don'tknow what nervousstate you're inand you'reprobablyagitating yournervous systemeven further.This makessuch sense.And you are thefirst person thatI've heard talkabout this.I haven't heardany, and I'mtalking about onsocial media.I know peoplehave, but it'snot out therebecause I havetried to meditatebecause I can'ttell you howmany peoplehave talked aboutmeditation.And I think it'san amazinglyeffective tool,obviously.And I think it'ssomething thatespeciallyall of usGen Xers shouldbe using,but what you'retalking aboutis actuallygiving peopleblueprint on howto startand to do it withknowledge ofyourselfand what type ofmeditation youshould usedepending onwhere yournervoussystem is,makesperfect sense.But I've neverheard anyone talkaboutthat before.That's amazing.It's a big deal.And I put ittogether with,well, because Istartedbreaking downlike the coursesthat I offer.So I havethe book,but also I haveseveral coursesthat I offerand how Ibasicallyscripted how thethings that I didfrom my ownhealing journeyand scripted itbecause I'm like,therapy takes alot of time.A lot of peoplecan heal a lot ofthings all ontheir ownif they have theright guide,somebody that'sbeen through it.And maybe there'sa stigma,they don't wantto go to sit witha therapist or acounselorthey don't havethe time, theydon't want to,any ofthose things.So to me, it's,there's so manythingsthat I did toothat cross allspectrums,like, okay,so when you gothrough the kindof abusethat I've gonethrough,like, okay,well theneverything thatshe has to saydoesn't apply tome because Ihaven'tgone throughwhat she's gonethrough.That's not thecase because thenervous systemstill worksthe same foreverybody.And so, in thatsense, so there'sso much knowledgethat I'veunpacked inregards tomeditations,why certain oneswork better, whycertainones don't,and why you haveto be sointentionalif you're goingto go down thatmeditativejourney.I mean, for me,the safestspot is to,I mean, andthere's only one,if you goonto YouTubeand you say alphameditation, whichis a link,I have a linkinto the courseto it ontoYouTube,but it's the, theSilvavisualizationmeditation.And it is, it's avisualizationand the,the sound is allto regulate,in hertz toregulate yournervous system.And it's, andthere's avisualizationcomponent to it,which ishuge as well.So, and I've donethat oneand it's free.I've donethat one.I can't even tellyou howmany times,but when I needto changethings up,the other thingthat for me wassound bath.And I've actuallybecome a soundbath healer.So I play soundbaths, you know,like the crystalbowls with thechakras.Yeah, is thatwhere I'll comeacross them onsocial mediawhere they'replaying the, ooh,like that?Yeah. Ilove that.I love that.Well, it'slike a bowl.I didn't knowthere werecrystal bowls, butthere's bowls.And what's theinstrument calledthat you use togo aroundthe bowl?Just, Idon't know.I'm like totallyblanking.It's like a,it's like a,It's like astick, butit's not.And they, I can'tremember thatanymore.It's differentfrequencies thatare coming up.Different frequencies,yeah.So the bowls aretuned into the432 hertz,which, andthere's big likediscussion ofaround this,like whether it'slike the earth'sresonanceor is 432 hertz,and it's alignedto that.So if you're intogrounding andtouchingthe earthand or you'resurroundingyourself withsound baths,and sound andvibration.And I thinkthat's why Gen Xlovesmusic so muchbecause it feelsso good inyour bodyif it's the rightsong, right?Depending onwhere yournervoussystem is,but if you'retrying toregulate andyou're superheightened,you bringyourself down andyou lay down intoa sound bath.I mean, you arebeing immersed byvibrationand music.And it's justsuch a beautifulexperience.I know itwas for me.And then bump itup one more anddo breath workwith that.Hmm.That soundslike a high.Yeah, it is.It soundsamazing.And would thatbe, if you bringbreathwork into it,does that bringin somatichealing?Cause it'sphysically, likesomatic healing,do you need to bejumping, movingto have somatichealing?Okay.Cause I know whenI dance andstuff, I'm like,oh, I feel likeI'm in somatichealingright now.Like there's noquestion.Absolutely.Yeah,yeah, for sure.But I didn't knowif somatichealingwas tied to,you have to bekind of bouncingor moving inorder to.No, no.And I, you know,like a lot of myhealingtook placelaying on in mybed, flat,meditations,sound baths.Yes, I did yoga,of course,touching grassall the time,hugging trees,sunshine, all ofthose things.And I mean,people laugh,but I wasn'tgoing to go on toa whole,you know,pile of pillsthat I could havepossiblyended up on.That wasn't me.I was onantidepressantswhen I was in mythirtiesafter I had mysecond daughter,that it washorrible.And then I was onanti-anxietymedicineafter my, when myfather went intothe hospitaland afterall of that,the shit that wasgoing on with mymother andmy sister,I went on toanti-anxietymedicinejust to shutmyself up, like,becauseit was so,and tonumb myself.I had to bephysically numb,like justnumbed out,like during thewhole thing.And, but, andthat's anotherthing as a friendof mine,actually he wason, so theanxiety medicinethat I was onwas alsoanti-seizuremedicine.So coming off ofthose medicines,the tremors thatI have are partof that.Also, when I gotinto a car,I felt like I wasgoing to die if Iwasn't driving.Coming off ofthese meds areserious.The side effectsare no joke.And I thought Iwas just crazyfor a long time.And then all of asudden I ran intosomebodythat had justcome off thisvery similarmedicationand wasexperiencing thesame thingwhen they were incars, invehicles.I have readsomeone who onFacebook,like someone Iknew in highschool thattalked about thatgoing off, it wassomething withbeing in a carand not driving.Were they Benzos?Yeah, coming offof Benzos. Benzosdiasophines?What isthat though?Did you ever findout an answeras to why ittriggered thatreactionin a car?I don't know.I just know thatI have one friendthat I finallyfeel validated.I'm like, oh myGod, thathappened to you.We actuallytraveled togetherto a friend'smemorial serviceand we were goinglong distance andhe was in theback seat.And suddenly thiswhole thing cameup for him.He was like, hadto sit like this.He was like, it'snot you guys,it's me.I'm having thisanxietyattack almost,but it's reallythe side effectof coming off ofthis medicine.And I had thesame thing.I would be on theanxietymedicationin the car.My husband wouldbe driving and Iwould be like,and I don't meanthe normalwifey thing.I mean, I waslike, oh my God.Thinkingliterally we wereabout to crash.Yeah. And weweren't.Your perceptionis really off howclose you areand how far away,you knowwhat I mean?It's very off.Well, theytotally rewireyour brain.100%.And they get inthere deep.Are thesethe benzos?Yeah. You're onbenzos, right?I'm pretty sureit was a littleblue pill.I think they'reall benzos.And I think weare gonna do anepisode on this,but they'regiving these tochildrenand then it'srewiringtheir brainsfrom the timethey start givingthem to them.And a lot ofschool shooters,they find are on benzos. Schoolshootersare on benzos.Oh, 100%.Yeah. Youknow, 100%.So, I mean,you're talking tosomebodythat isn't verykeen onbig pharmaor anything to dowith medications,especiallyfor kids.I've watched kidsgo on medicationsand theirpersonalitieschange.I've watched themgo on medicationsand they'repicking theirhair out.I've watchedthem, they'repickingtheir skin.Their completepersonalitychange,they're not thesame kid.And so thatalone, for mepersonally,I've been againstit, right?I'm like, "Oh, Idon't reallywanna go onmedication.I don't wanna goon to anythingthat's going torewire my brain,that's going toaffect mein a waythat I have to beon something forthe restof my life.Like we're soyoung, like I'mnot going onsomethingthat I need totake everysingle day.Have you broughtmusic to yourclassrooms?Yeah, we danceevery day.What do you, I'lljust a quicksidebar.I remember whenwe had our twokids in the carsand if it waschaos in the car,if I threw on theGrateful Dead,not even joking,within a minute,everything'scalm.So to go to yourfrequency thing,it's got methinking, I'mtechnical,I like to thinkof thisnerdy stuff.I'm gonna look atthe frequency of theGrateful Dead.But I'm curious,have you ever--Yeah, you gottatell mewhat it is.I wanna do thattoo, oh my God.And BillyStrings, thatmight be--Maybe the samefrequency.Yeah, thatmight be,because I knowfor us, the deadis an addictionin that how itmakes us feel,especially goingto liveshows, right?Yes.Or beingcover bands,you still havethe same energyin the crowd.You still havethe same, youdance the same,even if it's acover band.And BillyStrings, it'sthat same,it's the sameGrateful Deadcrowd energy.If you went toBilly Stringsconcert,you would feellike you'reamongstdead heads.I don't know howto explain it.And dancing andtwirl, there'stwirlers,all thattype of stuff.So I wonder aboutthe frequency.Yeah, that's gotme thinking.That's why I saythe kids, we'dhave chaos.The kids would becrying orfighting,whatever.They're on aGrateful Dead.It's true.And they wouldjust chill withina minute.It's true.So we have like,and so I put on,I don't know ifyou know whatLo-fi is.It's like, youcan find it on,it's toregulate, like,Binaireal Beatsand to regulate.So a lot of timeswhen the kids areworkingindependently,I put like almostevery day.There's music inthe classroom allthe time.I wouldn't beable to survivewithout it.(laughs) I was gonna askyou, as far asthe death ofyour father,because I know Iwent through myown thingwith the death ofmy father,but foryou, was it,was part of thetrauma of that,that you werenevergoing to getthe, what youneeded from him.You were nevergoing to get therecognitionof what hedid to you.You're nevergoing to get thevalidation.You're nevergoing to get theapology.You were nevergoing to get theunconditionallove.So you werelosingyour father,but then you werealso losing thathope and dreamthat someday youwere going to getthatclosure with him.No, I haven'tthought about itlike that,but to me, so Ihad a very,as violent as myfather wasn't asfucked upas he was,I had the closestrelationship outof my siblingswith him.I was verynurturing to him.Like he, myparents wouldhave fights likecrazy fights,and my motherwould beat my house,and I had a babyat the time,and she's like,oh, he'sthreateningwith a gunand these thingsand that thing.And I'm like, soI would be theone thatwould go to himand look at himand sit him downand say,you're going todie a verylonely manif you don't getsome help.You can't keepdoing this.Like we love you,but you can'tkeep doingthis shit.Mom's not comingto my house tolive with me.This is her home.You can't bescaring the shitout of her.And so he, likewhen hewent to the VA,he gotinto the VA,he went into anin-house programfor six weeks.He finally gotthe recognition,like his unitfinally got therecognition thatthey deserve.I was verysupportive of myfather andunderstanding.But at thesame time,I didn'tunderstand whilehe was alive,how all of hisactions had done,how much it hadimpacted me insuch anegative way.Like I still hadthat love,daughter,father, love,was verydeep for him,and was veryunderstanding toa point.I had boundariestoo though.My sisters didn't,where he wouldcall me upand be like,where did I putthe goddamnblah, blah?He'd blend stuffout and then he'dthink that I,and I gave itback and then hedidn't remember,he would bestreaming and Iwould be like,fuck you.Like I wouldn'ttake thatcall, right?Like I wouldjust, and mysisters wouldtake it.You knowwhat I mean?But I mean, atthe end,when I knew hewas dying when hegot hisdiagnosis,the way that itwas delivered tome by my sisterand my mother washorrible,to say the least,the way I wastreated in thehospitalright after,they were like,oh well,my oldestsister'sdaughters,my two nieceswere there thatwere like21, 2019,something likethat, they werekept itfrom them.So we all had towalk oneggshells.We couldn't talkabout it.And after theydumped this newsthat he has stagefour lungcancer on me,they said, gocleanyourself up.Like leave thehospital,cover up thatyou'vebeen crying,and because thesetwo over heredon't know.Oh my God.I had to leavethe hospital andgo buy makeupand fake the factthat Ijust found outthat my fatherhad stage fourlung cancer.And sothat was the,and because I had,they set it uplike, it was sofucked up.I can'teven tell you.It is, it's sovery, very.Suppression,suppression.Yeah, it's justso fucked up.Like before that,now I knew thatsomethingwas coming.He had gone intothe hospital.So thenmy mother,and said to themtelling me,they just keptsaying, oh, wedon't know.The doctors aretesting, doingmore tests.They knew, andthey keptit from me.And they weretrying to handleit in this like,fucked up way.And then theywere like, okay,Michael,we're gonna haveyou, my husband,we're gonna haveyou pickDenise up.No, we're gonnadrop you off atDenise's work.So then you canget in the carwith her.And then you cango to thehospitalto deliversome news.Okay, well, areyou afucking idiot?Like, this is howyou do that.This is how theyset this wholething up tobegin with.From the verybeginning, whileI had highanxiety,I'm gonna fuckingstop at a bar andhave a drink.Because I knowI'm about toreceive somehorrible news.Yeah, yeah, yeah.So we getsomething to eat.We bothhave a drink.We walk in.Hello, blah,blah, blah.Come over intothis room acrossthe hallway.It's deliveredthe news.Here it is.He has tumorsthis big,metastasized.They'reeverywhere.We don'tknow how long.Now go, stopcrying, get yourass out of here,go get somemakeup, and thenyou can come backand act likenothing happened.It's all aboutcontrol.It's all aboutcontrol andalmost like apuppet master.Like taking anysituation andseeing how farthey can controlthe situation.Because it'sunnecessary.It's likeunnecessarythings.But it's, I stillthink it tiesback to somenarcissism.Oh, 100%.Totally.Even in thatsituation.Even in thatsituation.Like howhorrible.Well, and it wasfunny because myhusband,like I said,he had just losthis dad eightmonthsbefore that.So we had beenwith his familyand it wascompleteopposite.Like his dad wasfightinglymphoma.So he had beenbattlingfor 10 years.And so like everythree years, hewould haveto go throughall the radiationand all of thetreatments.And thenhe was good.And thenhe was good.He was good untilhe wasn't.And so we werelike with hisfamily and thatthey wereso kind, sosweet, socommunicative,so compassionateto one another.And then he wastaking turns.Like everybodywas involved.It was beautiful.I was like, andthen I get with--Yeah, you knewhow it could be.Right.Yeah.And my husband,my poor husbandis sittingthere like,who also loved mydad, you know,was like--Yeah, yeah.What'sgoing on here?Yeah, but I mean,did your husbandhave, did he,was that reallythe eye-openingmoment for himwhere he reallysaw howbad it was,how he handledyourfather's death,or had he alreadyseen reallybad stuff,or was thatthat moment?It was atthat moment.I mean, therewas, you know,there wasthe, like,also he only hasa brother, he hasno sisters.So he has noexperiencewith like,other than hisex, like, butthey were verytoxic too.Like my familywas verydysfunctional,just likehis exes.And so, you know,and we've alwaystalkedabout that.Like, why do youchoose women likethis, Michael?They've beenthrough thisserious trauma.So, you know, wehad tounpack that.I'm sure,I'm sure.But going back,it's like--Yeah, Brianalways says,"DAMNAGE GOODS."He likesdamage goods.The rescuer, therescuer, right?Exactly, so,okay, so yourfatherpasses away,and then ittriggers thisnightmaresituationwith your mom forthe next, what,six years?Four years. Four years.And you and yourhusband at thesame time,then you and yourhusband reach apoint whereyou're like,"We better make achange,"or, "Thismarriage isn'tgonna make it."And you go nocontact.And it soundslike you startedyour realhealing journeyat thatpoint, right?With all thesteps youwere taking.Is that also whenyou startedyour course?Or how long fromthe time you wentno contactand started yourhealing journeyto when youcreatedyour course?So I believe itwas because thebook coincidedwith the courses.So I startedprobably ayear after.I wannasay a year--After going nocontact?No, it was twoyears, it was twoyears, for sure,if not more,because I startedon thebook first.I started on thebook first,and then Istarted creatingafter the bookand talking withmy editor, mypublisher,they were like,they were moreabout bringingmore informationbecause quickly,because I didn'twant anovel like this,like who's gonnabuy it, who'sgonna read that?And so theystartedadvising me,maybe you shouldbe working onsome coursesjust to getpeople, getinformation outthere alot fasterand for people tobe able toactuallyparticipate in,like forsubconscioushealing, right?The subconsciousmind and how Idid that,who I listenedto, who are thepeople that,what books Iread, all of thatstuff, right?Like you unpackall of that stuffinto a courseand it's in 45minutes and damn,when you walkaway with it,you'relike, holy shit.(laughs) That's reallysmart, I'm sorry,go ahead.I was just gonnasay, you can readyour bookand then apply itthroughyour course.It sounds likeit's connected.Vice versa, it is.Oh, they are,yeah, they're allconnected.So like, forexample, let mejust openup the book,it's right here,just so I canhear it asreference.And I'mgonna ask too,what inspired youto write "TheValor ofGeneration X"?First, I was mycounselor,and then Istartedthinking about,you know, valorin the sense ofwhat courageand braverymeans in the faceof battle.And of course,it'sconnected to my dad.But at the sametime, I'm like,what about Gen Xand theirbattles?And what abouttheir valor?And what abouttheir courageof all of thethings that we'vesurvived?And I just reallystarted thinkingabout itand sofirst it was,it was gonna belike my valor,your valor,somethinglike that.And then I waslike, holy shit,no, this isgenerational.This is all ofus, right?I'm like,this is Gen X,it's bigger thanjust what I'veexperienced,this is thegenerationalthinggoing on here.And so then Itook it from myvalor,your valor,to the valor ofGeneration X.That's how thatcame to be.But in regards tothe courses,so like eachchapter coincidesbasicallyas like a cliffnote version ofthe course,courses.So for example,the firstchapter oneis "ComfortablyNumb Resurrectthe NervousSystem."I start the bookoff flatlytalkingabout thatwhen you're on ahealing journey,that's themain work.Then thenext one,chapter is"SubconsciousBehavior PatternsandConditioning."I have twoseparate coursesfor those.So one is"SubconsciousBehavioralPatterns,"how do Iidentify them?And thenconditioning andlearning aboutyour child,that's more oflike inner child,or yeah, yourinner child'shealing.Is conditioning.Subconscious islike all the wayfrom now,from thebeginningtill now,and like whereyou got yourbeliefs fromand digging deepinto them.And understandingthat they werenever yours tobegin with.And so you canrebuild yoursubconscious anyway you wantbecause it'smalleable,everything'smalleable.Do you touch onthe concept,and I can'tremember thename of it,but how yourtrauma hasbeen passed,you were actuallycarrying traumafromgenerations before.Like you could becarrying yourgrandmother'straumaand your greatgrandmother'strauma.Yeah, that's-I can'tremember though.Oh, thename for it?Like, oh, I don'tknow what that iscalled either.There is a namefor it, but doyou knowwhat I mean?How weird-Yes, I knowexactlywhat you mean,and how-You're basically carrying it.Epigenics.What's that?Was itapiagenics?Is that what you'retalking about?Yes, yes.Yeah, yes.So-Epigenics.Epigenics.Epigenics.I'm like, I thinkI'm sayingit wrong.Yes.I might be too,but it's that.Yes.Yes, it'sthat one.I know whatyou're talkingabout for sure.Yes, so, and Imean, it's inyourcells, your DNA.Yeah.And so, you know,for when we talkabout womenand being burnedat thestake, you know,and thingslike that,where somepeople, Ibelieve, arestillcarrying those,thattrauma, 100%.Totally, and howmany women havebeen raped?Yeah.It's just thebeginning oftime, orsexually abused,or beaten, youknow, I mean-It's stillgoing on.The pain that-To this day.Yes, yes.It's a trip.What do you-Could go too long to put on that.You said thesubconscious isnot your own.It's malleable.Well, thesubconscious, no,I didn't say it'snot your own.No, okay, so letme reword it.So, subconsciousthoughts.When we're frombirth to eightyears old,you have gainedlike the majorityof yoursubconsciousthoughts, yourbeliefs.Where do yourbeliefscome from?Who you wereraised by, fromsociety, thecultural norms,so on and soforth, right?So, this is allbuilt into yoursubconscious.So, you gothrough life,you're only 95,you live yourlife 95% fromyoursubconscious,five from yourconsciousness,okay?Your nervoussystem isconnected to yoursubconscious,mostly, becausethat's where youoperate from.So, you got thislittle 5% of yourawareness,so to speak,and how you'regoing to reactand operatewithin the world,but you're goingto do it throughthe subconscious.So, mostof the time.So, that's why,even if you go onto chat GTP,or any of thoseAI things and askhow much ofthe world'sactually awake,and hasself-awareness,it's like 1%,it's like 1%.Like, you learnonly a couplethings aboutyourself,and then youthink, okay,that's it,I'm healed,like I'm good, Ican move on.But when we'retalking about thegenerationalthrough women,through the DNA,through trauma,throughall of it,and then all of asudden, sayyou're in asituation,and your nervoussystem, you getinto a carcrash, okay?This is 100%subconscioussurvival, right?So, some peopleare ableto be calm,they can operatequickly, smart,other people losetheir shit, theycome undone,they don't knowhow to functionin a high stresssituation.And so, it'scompletely 100%subconscious.So, like in mybook, I talkaboutstupid shit,like even thisthing,like my dad.So, my dad alwayswas running outthe door, late,he couldn't findhis keys, hisglasses, none ofhis shit,was ever, I putit right here, itwas right here,what the fuck,he'd be screamingand yelling,losing his shit,and we're alllike, all right.And so,eventually hewouldleave, right?But like he upsetthe entire housebefore hewould leave.Yeah. And so,I startedrealizing I hadthis pattern.I was like, allof us, the girlswould be in thekitchen,we would all begetting ready,we'd get readyfor work,I'd have all myshit, likeexactly where itwassupposed to be.And I was like,ready to come inthere, come inthe kitchen,they were likemaking breakfast,getting ready,I had to get outat the door toget to work,and I would likeget my stuff,I would have tograb this fork,this thing, thiswhatever.And I gotagitated, soeasily agitated.Now, it was asmall likeU-shaped kitchen,and there's fourgirls in here,you know,we're all,it was a smallspace for sure.But I would losemy shit.Then I was like,oh, you have to,you girls can'tbe in this areaof the kitchenwhen I'm tryingto get outthe door.Like I just feltlike supercontrolling,superlike my dad.And like, and Iwas screechingout of thedriveway,(imitates door creaking) you know, to getto work.And I was like,holy shit,this is asubconsciousbehavior patternthat was learned.Yeah. Yeah.Yeah. Yeah.It was learned,like I wasn'tborn with that.Yeah. Didyou say,I'm gonna justleave, I'm gonnaleave 10 minutesearlier,so I'm notdoing this.Because youpicked upon it, right?And then you getintobehavior, Maude.Did you, or didyou just be like,just accept thatI'll just be mydad here?Well, in somemoments, I'm justmy dad here.In some moments,like Denise,like the girlthat wantsto be like,hey, I feel this,I'verecognized this,it's not mine tocarry, is whatI'm saying.And it wasn'tmine tobegin with.It's not mypattern, okay?So it's not mineto begin with.So I can leavethis patternover there,it doesn'tbelong to me,and I can createa new pattern.So, and I seemyself in themorning,now nobody'shere, right?Like my girls aregone, they'regrown up,they're incollege, myhusband's here,but he'salready left.So it's just me,just meand myself.So,(laughs)so who do I haveto be mad at?Or to rage at, orto, you knowwhat I mean?To continue thepattern.The lateness,thatorganization,I'm totallyorganized.Like I literallydo the same thingevery day,this, pick upthat, do that,you knowwhat I mean?But the latenessthing, thatsometimes,it stillcan work.I'm not, I'mneverlate to work.I'm 15 minutes, Iguess I'mhard on myself,I'm 15 minutesearly to work.I want to be,excuse me,earlier to work.But there's nochaos, there's noone hereto enjoy thechaos that waspasseddown to me.(laughs)You knowwhat I mean?Interesting, Ilove howyou said,that's not mineto carry.And then I canlet, I can putthat down andcreate my own.My mom wasalways late.So I was raisedwhere I wasalwayslate to schooland it was alwaysso stressful andtraumaticbecause you'dwalk into theclassroomand everyonewould turn andlook at youand you have tohang up yourbackpack.I played violin,I got thisviolin case,you know, I'm inOregon, it'sraining,I gotta hang upmy rain jacket.It's the wholething, everyone'sstaring at you.And that buildsevery day, right?That humiliation,I guessthat's shame.Yep.And I've workedhard on this.But for the firsthalf of myadulthood, I wasalways late.But I wasn't evenconscious of it.It was just mylearned behavior.And then now, I'mso muchbetter now,but I still havedefinitelya moment,but I'm moreaware of it.But for the firsthalf of my life,I wasn't evenaware of itbecause--I was the same asyou, yeah, 100%.I was justlike that.And then, butthen my kids, mydaughter, I know,and I think myolderson's the same,but she's veryconscious aboutnot being late.And my youngestdoesn'twanna be late.So they'realreadychanging it.And it's probablya traumareaction.They get thatfrom me.To them beinglate, you know,but then you alsodon'twanna be late.But again, thatwas alearned thing.And I somehow atsome point madethe decisionto put it down,but I stillhaven't totallyput it down.Because like Isaid, I stillsabotage myselfsometimes.Be careful too.It's like thebehavior patternis also wired.So, you know,it's like, youcan put it down,you can recognizeit, you can haveself-awareness,but it isalso wired.You'rewired that way.So you're like,you know,so again,I think we talkedabout this about,you know,unravelingsomething that'sbeen wired intoyou for so long,it takes time andpatience andcompassion andself-empathy,you know, like,so you can'tjust, you know,put this down,like, yeah, butI'm so latesometimes.I still like, andlike, you know,last like runningon thelast minute,I got 30 secondsbefore Igotta leave.But then typicalGen X,you're right.Like I would behard on myselffor repeating it.And then if otherpeople were hardon me about it,I wouldautomatically belike, Ideserve that.I deserve to betalked to likethat because I'mfailing,right?And realizing I'mbreakingsomethingthat's been apart of me sinceI was born.And so every timeI'm not, Ishould be,I need tocelebrate thatand give myselfgrace, you know?Yes.But that's not,that doesn't comenaturallyanytime.Look at howquickly I wasable to say thatto you, right?Like I can saythat to you.I say that to mybest friend, myhusband,my girls,like everybodyelse, just giveyourselfsome graceand I'm overhere, like, canwe get ittogether, Denise?I always say thatsuch a thing asI'll say,what would I sayto my best friendand be that wayto myself?Yeah, but weweren't raised tobe good toourselves,especiallyGen X girls.So, okay, so youwrote this,how long did ittake you to writethe book?Three years.I have a sidequestion.Did you, well,no, it's in line.Did you take alot of thematerial from thejournal,the therapisttold you towrite, did thatfeed into it?So, I was goingto until, youknow, again,working with aneditor andpublisher isreally important.I could haveshared all of it.However, I reallyneeded to focuson my why.Why was I writingthis book?Was it because Iwanted validationfrom the rest ofthe worldand tell my uglystoriesand truth?No, not really.I really justwant, this bookand the coursesare meant to helpother people.So, I didn't wantto take awayfrom, you know,the horror ofsome ofthe, you know,of some of thethings that havehappenedin my lifefor somebody thatI'm trying toactuallyhelp, right?So, it's notabout, right,it's not anautobiography.It's not, do Iwish sometimesthat I wouldhave sharedsome of the deep,like, dark stuff?Yeah, because Ithink that otherpeople haveexperienced itand they need toknow that they'renot aloneand how to getout of it, how toheal fromit, you know?So, it's more oflike amentorship, likeI've been there.Like I get you,you knowwhat I mean?Like Iunderstand that.In some wayswhere you maybetap into it,maybe talkinglike this helps,makes yourealize,I think there's,I think peoplewill hearsome of the, whatwe'vetalked aboutand it willreally resonatewith themand they'llgravitate towardsit and know that,hey, I'mnot alone.I went throughsimilar shit andyou're surviving.Look at how, youknow, for allintents andpurposes,you seem to bedoingreally well.You're helpingkids,you're people,you're givingback in the formof your bookand your courses,but you're also aspecial edteacher,which to herpoint is,you know,somewhat of anangel on earthhelping children.So, I do think itcould resonate.You mean likedoing a part twotype of courseto share more ofa personal story?Yeah, yeah.Maybe.I mean, my lifeis like 10times better.I can't even tellyou quitehonestly.I mean, it's ahard lonely walksometimes,not gonna lie,you know, nothaving my sistersas dysfunctionalas they were.You know, Icalled myselfselforphaned the day,the moment that Iknew that I hadto go no contact.It's prettysad, right?But at the sametime, just beingin my hometownand taking up,you know, I loveone of your,one of yourpodcasts you weretalking aboutwomen and havinghobbies,dynamics womendon't havehobbies.I was like,holy crap.I was like,that's so true upuntil I was like,wait a second, Iwanna tell herbecause Iactuallyhave a hobby.I actually havealways, so I grewup in a town,the town that Igrew up in thatI'm living in nowis a sailingvillage.There's sailboatseverywhere.It's absolutelygorgeous.And I've alwayswanted to learnto sail.My parents didn'thave thekind of money,but I hung outwith a lot ofpeople that did.You know, I wason a boathere or there,but when we movedback here, thatwas not myintention.When my husbandand I moved,we were like justin lovewith the view.We were like,okay, but thenthe view was likeshowing us likethe next step,which was allthesebeautiful boats.So we joined ayachting club.We belong thereand we havelearned to sail.We bought our ownboat andwe're gonna,we're probablygonna sail downto where you guysare someday.That's awesome.And youhave a hobby.Yes, and Ihave a hobby.That's awesome.I love that.I love it.That's amazing.And it's amazingthat thosemoments werecognize,that's huge forus, right?That's huge forour generation.So it's huge forthe women in ourgeneration.So I'mtrying to sum up.So the valor ofGenerationX to me,like you just, Ifeel summedit up so wellis almost like amentorship inhelpingGen X midlifeas they findthemselves againand embark ontheir healingjourney.Would you saythat's a good wayto sum upyour book?100%.It's a new way,like the, what'sthe subtitle,how thecourageous arefinding a newpath to growthand love.I love it.So it's basicallylike,there's only,there's a smallportion of thisthat talks aboutnarcissism,although that wasa big partof my life.What is alsodiscussedis a lot,I mean, I'm deepintospirituality,vibrations,that stuff.And I don't thinkthat that camealong until,you know, you gothrough a sort ofa spiritualawakening.Like when I was,my mentor had mewrite a letterfrom God,from Godto myself.So I had to writea letter as if Iwas God talkingto myself.I think that was,yeah, dothat, do that.I can't,that sounds,it's too muchkindness togive myself.Right?It could be alllove, right?At 100%, it's alllove, it's 100%.Powerful,that's power.Wow, that's verypowerful.You have to beready toaccept that.Right.Yourself, yeah.Yeah, so I mean,you gotta thinkabout thatand you gottathink on it for awhile too.So somebody tellsyou to dothis, right?You gotta speakas if you're Godto yourselfand how theywould speak toyou andwrite a letter.Well, I ended upgoing to,oh my God, what'sit calledwhen you,like an open micand readmy letter.Wow.In like a jazzclub in Buffalo.That's amazing.And I mean, theywere, yeah, itwas cool.I was like, well,I wanna go, likeI wrote itand like myhusband and I,like we wrote itwhen there waslike this littlelike speak easykind of placethat likeeverybody wasalways readingpoetry and stuff.And there was alot of cool jazzmusic there.And so like wetook, I had it onmy phone.I took a pictureof it and it wason my phone.And then he waslike, come on, goup, readit, read it.And I was like,so I read it.And I mean, thetears, likepeople werejust like,you've beenreborn,like, oh my God.Oh my God.It was crazy, itwas beautiful.Wow, I mean, whata moment in life.That, what amoment for you tohave the courageto even get upthere andshare that.I was sonervous, right?I was like, that'sthe moment.Yeah, but you didthat foryourself.You've come sofar, it's wild.Yeah, you didthat for thatlittle girl.Yeah.100%.Little girl.I did.There's so manythings that,moments that I dosomethingand I'm like,where did I getthat inspiration?And then I'mlike,it's for her.I didthat for her.And it's amazing.Self-healing justcan be sooverwhelmingsometimes.But it's just,it's hard todescribeto peoplewhen you have apart, you areconsciousthat I justhealed, literallyhealed apart of myself.Yeah, it's a lot.That's so, I'mgonna do thatwhen I'm ready.I have tobe ready.Yeah, you'regonna have tothink on ittoo, right?Because it'sgonna linger.It'sgonna linger.Things are gonnacome in and out.Like it took meprobably twomonths before Iwrote it.Yeah, was thisafter going nocontact?Yeah, this wasafter a full yearof no contactand probably thensome like two,three,four months.When my mentorhad said that youwanted meto writea letter from Godto myself and Iwas like, okay.And so I thoughton it fora while,but yeah, it wasa verybeautiful thing.And I think evenat this time,it's beensix yearssince I wrote theletter five orsix, I think.And so I thinkit's time to likewrite another oneto myself, right?It's a greatpractice.It's a wonderfulpractice.I'm gonnaactually sharethat with mychildren too.Absolutely. Atsome point intheir lives.I thank you forsharing thatbecause I thinkthat's abeautiful tool.GenX has so manytools in theirtoolbox,so many of themaredisassociating,drinking,sarcasm,self-deprecating,all that.It's just likethe-- Oh yeah,the self-deprecatingstuff that makesme likedon't talk.So nice to have apositive one.Do you think, I'mbig aboutsometimes youhave to removepeople from yourlife in order tomake spacefor the positivepeople that aresupposedto be thereor the positiveexperiencesyou're supposedto be living.And as long asyou keep certainpeople inyour life,they're blockingthat energy fromenteringthe positiveenergy or whereyou'resupposed to be.Do you-- A lot.You know, I--Going no contact,has it opened upthe space for youof all these newpositive things?Well, itreally has.You know, energydoesn't lie.And you know,being veryspiritualin the sense ofenergy andyou know,when you come outof such trauma,your intuitionstarts workingagain, right?Not everything'sa traumaresponse.And so you'revery intuitive.And so it's beenextremelyhealing.I just, sometimesI think aboutright now,what's going onis that Ijust heara lot ofestrangementhappening.And I think thatthere's too much,like people aretraumatizedmakingeverything trauma.Like, I mean, andthey're,so they're takingthings too farfor going nocontact.So I'm carefulabout answeringthat questionbecause I don'tthink it's thatcut and dry.And like, oh, youpissed me off.Well, fuck you, Idon't want youaround my energy.Right. You knowwhat I mean?That's onething. Yeah.Like, I mean, ifwe're talkingaboutrepeated abuse,absolutely, ifwe'retalking about,I don't agreewith you,or maybe I justdon't like you,you know, thoseare other things.But when we'retalkingabout family,as long asit's healthyand there's ahealthydisagreements andyou know,then I don'tthink thatbecause,you know,something bothersyou or rubs youthe wrong way.You know, I justthink there's alot of likethis cutting offgoing on.And I do feelthat for my ownsurvivalthat I needed todo that.I should havedone it yearsbefore, right?But I just feellike there needsto be alot of likefocus on conflictresolutionsamong people.And I am veryprotectiveof my energy.I like to go outand socialize.I know whensomebody walksinto my space, Ican feel it.Like that's hownow sensitive myI am, right?I'm not so numb.I'm notshut down.I'm not in ahypervigilant ordisassociatedstate.I'm in agood vibe.I have greatenergy now.Like I feel it.I'm intentionalabout my energy.And I know that Ican also bringbad energy to aplace too.So, but I willdefinitely, ifthere'sbad energyso to speak in mycircle,in my vibe,in my vibrationalcircle, I'm out.Doesn't mean thatI don't likethem, but I dofeel it.I do pick up onit and I do pickup on bad energy.And I feel likethe more that youheal something,the more you areenergetically,you aremore in tuned.You are more intune toyour body.You are more intune tovibrationsand energiesoutside of you.100%. I have aquestion.100%. Yeah, Itotally agree.One thing that'ssnagging me issince you've hadno contactand you're morein tune,then you'reprobably healedso many things.Do you think youcould goback to contactand handle itfrom a differentperspectiveand maybe manageit better?Not that it wasyours to manageit previously,but you knowwhat I mean?Like deal with itand letit back inand not have itbe so impactful.And is there anyinterest in that?So, that's atough one becausenarcissisticabuse isvery realand I just feellike I'm in sucha better placethat unless Iunderstood thatthe restof my familyhad gone intosome kind ofcounseling orsomething,I mean, I justlike to gostraight backto like pick upwhere we left offand there's noresolution or noconversationbecause thiswould justfunctionfamilies too.They pretend thatit didn't happen.And I'm notinterestedin that.So, I'minterested inactually havingrealconversationsagain.And I wax andwane, like it'sthe holidays,like I want myfamilyaround me, right?And other timesI'm like,fuck no.The answer tothat question isfuck no.Like I've given47 yearsof my lifeto that fuckingmess and chaosand I've onlybeen hereand in this spot,in thispresent moment,right now forthis one second,you knowwhat I mean?And I'm doingextremely well.And do I wannafuck with that?No.Do I want to havemy sisters backin my life?Yeah.Do I understandmy mother's storyat 16 years old?Getting pregnant,you're gettingmarried.My mother was afamily scapegoat.She was anembarrassment totheir family.You imagineduring thattime period,I see everything,I see how shebecame whoshe became.I don't know asfar as my oldersister, who was,you know,to me, she'sequally abused.The goldenchildrenaren't like,it's apsychologicalgame and warfare.And so, she's a little bit of a, and so she'sequally abused.So, I mean, Iwould love to seemy familybacktogether again.I just don't knowif I would rightnow is thetime, right?Like I probablyneed anotherfour years.Well, also ifthey're notreaching outin some healthyway and astory of,I've gone throughthis journey andI apologizeand yeah, shitwas fucked up.Maybe their own,if they did theirown workand they cameback withsome proof,maybe that makesmore sense,but for you to goback makesno sense.Right, and that'sthe other thing.You know, mymother knowswhere I am.She has neverwritten mea letter.She, you justGoogle my name.Like my addresspops right up.And there'speople from myextended familywatchingand lurking thatlike my,you know, Iadvertisedmy book.I was honestabout when Istarted reallyunpackingand starteddiscussingnarcissisticabusespecifically.And they allknew, likethey saw it,like familymembers, you knowwhat I mean?They all saw it,like she knowshow to getahold of me.She never, shewas trying toreach my youngestdaughterthrough my niece.So like my motherwas trying to getmy nieceto talk to mydaughter, myyoungest.And I cutthat off.The doors areopen for mydaughters too.After they turned18, I said,if you want totalk to anybodyin the familyand it wasnever there,they were alwaysallowed to talkto their cousins.Yeah, yeah.I never tried to,you know, say youcan'ttalk to themor anythinglike that.I mean, obviouslywe weren't goingto familygatherings,but that they, Iwas like, youknow, you keepthat bond.Yeah.And withouttalking about me,your life isn'tonly about me.Like talk aboutyourself, talkabout the thingsyou're doing,their interests,so on andso forth.Keep thatconnection.But theyreally didn't.You know, when Isaid to them atthe age of 18,I said, you'rewelcome tocontact yourgrandmotherand your aunts.Like this is myexperience.Like, you know,maybe you'll havea different one.I don't know whatto say, but youknow what I mean?But it has, I dogo backand forth.It's a funnyquestionthat you asked,but you know, Ido believe inforgiveness,but I also, and Ihave forgiven.I forgiveall the time.Yeah, well, yeah,go ahead,I'm sorry.No, butforgivenessis for me.Is that whatyou'regoing to say?Yes.Yeah, forgivenessis for me.Yeah, it'sa choice.And I think whenyou forgivesomebody who'sabused you,it's a choice youmake every day.It's not like Iforgive and nowit's done.It's a conscious,intentionaldecisionyou make for yoursoul every day.It has to, it'sbecause that isvery intentionalto forgivesomeone who'sabused you,but you're doingit for yourself.100%.Yeah.And then you forgive every daybecause,why is that?Why isn't it justthat I forgiveyou and let'smove on?Well, because tomove on, ithas to be,because I guess,and maybeit goes back,I'm speaking formyself, thewiring, thehard wiring,and thesubconscious,you'reacknowledging it.You're choosingthat every day tomaintain itbecause yoursubconsciouswouldmaybe fall backinto theold ways.Does thatmake sense?Yeah, 100%.And, you know,forgiving, givingforgiveness,you know, there'spractice,gratitudepracticeevery day,which I practicein the morningand at nightwhen I go to bed.And I also sendforgiveness.I sendforgiveness tothree peopleand myself isalways first.And that's allthat I cando, right?That's such agreat, that's agreat skill.That's a greatskill though toalso forgiveyourself firstbecause we carryso much shame.When you've beentraumatized, youcarry somuch shame.Yeah.You know.How much is that?And especially ifyou were made tofeel likeit was your faultor alwaysyour faultor you werealways doingsomething wrong,that's hardwired.Yeah.That'shardwired too.Sorry, what wereyou gonna say?I'm just curious,are you religiousor just morespiritual?I'm spiritual.Like I don't, Iwas a baptizedCatholic.Yeah, not apracticingCatholic.I haven't beenfor, I don'tknow, 20years or more.But I mean, Iread the Bible.I listened to alot ofChristian music.And I know that Iwouldn't have,I wouldn't behere without thegrace of God.So that's for,and you wouldprobablyinterpretthat still asreligious.No, no, I canrelate to whatshe's saying.I'm spiritual,but I'm, I wasbaptizedCatholic.I've, I'm, I haveno interest intheorganized aspect.I get the utilityof it though.And probablybecause there'sbeen some recenthorrific eventsin our sphere,and I've seen howit's helpedpeople getthrough it.And I find itintriguingbecause it's nothow I get throughit, but I do havea spirituality.I don't know,it's not anorganizedreligion,but I, there's,there's higherpurpose.And I canunderstand, Irelate to your,your concept ofenergy andvibrations andstuff like that.Right?I'm very in tunewith that.And, but to go tochurch,any church,and I'm notcritical of it.It's justnot for me.I haven't foundthatyouthfulness,but.Yeah, no, the,the going outsideand beingin natureis church.Oh, that's right.I wonder ifthat's true.You're atree hugger.Yeah.Are you atree hugger?Yes.So is Brian.100%Brian is too.If we're onnature walks andI see astoic tree,I'll stopand hug it.Yeah.Well, and they,you know thatyou're, you'reliterallyrecharging,you're, you'redumping yournegativelike energyinto the earthand then like getreceivingfrom it.There's an energyexchange thathappenswhen you walkbarefoot, whenyou're, howyou're choosing.And if you look,if you, there's amovie onYouTube calledgrounding andthey talk allabout like the,the actualphysical effectsof beingconnectedto the earth,how the earth ishelps to regulateyournervous system.They do all kindsof tests.It's crazy.I'm like, soyeah, I'm morelike the, the,the girl thatsees God sittingoff of a sailboator on a walk,you know, out ina forest orsomethinglike that.That's, that'schurch to me.I don't, I don'tbelieve in goingto organizereligionchurches.I don't thinkthat that's, youknow, I believein gatheringsforspiritual things.You know, like Ido sound bass andthat's a veryspiritualpractice that Ioffer toother people.So, you know, I,I just think thatI guess,yeah, I guesswe're stillvibing, we'revibing in thesame space.Like I'm not,you're not goingto see me walkinto a church.I mean, ifsomebody'sservices there,you know, forsomebodythat I reallylove and I wantto go,then I'll go.You knowwhat I mean?But it's not,it's not part ofmy dailypractice.I do have apractice which Ijust spoke aboutthe forgivenessand gratitude.Right.I do that everymorningand at night.It's part of mymental practice.And I think thatit's important tohave gratitudein your life andhave that kind ofpractice and tomentallyhave a mentaldiscussion.You have tochange your innervoice in order toreally, trulyhonor yourselfand love yourselfand tolove others.And unless you'renot, unlessyou're practicingit, you know,you can't reallydo that from aplace ofauthenticity.Yeah, thatmakes sense.It does.But, and it'sfunny because Ialso view thatit's kind ofa form ofprayer, right?You could, like,it's not, youknow, the way,the peopleautomaticallytie it.Cause we'redifferent, right?Cause so Brian islike how he justdescribedhow he is,I actually go tochurch, I'mCatholic.So, and I alwaystalk about-I'm counting onher to save me.But we talk aboutit how you can bein marriageand come from twodifferent places.It works, right?Because bothplaces are comingfrom apositive place.Cause my, I amreligious, butit's coming fromthe samepositivespirituality asyou'rediscussing.It's not comingfrom judgment orany of that oldtime crap.Right?Yeah, well, yeah.I mean, so manyof us weremanipulatedthrough religion.So we're going toburn in hell.Yeah, yeah.Yes.And so they don'tdo that anymore.Like they'vechanged it causethey realizethey're losingpeople, right?So, but it's, butso what you'retalking aboutthat dailygratitude andthat skill andeverything,for me, I foundwhen I'm praying,I'm doing that.Cause I'm beinggrateful for,I'm recognizingall the thingsI'm grateful for.And then I'masking for gracefor myself.So it's the sameconcept, if thatmakes sense.I just-Yeah, a hundredpercent.Direct it to God.Cause I, that Ifind guidancethrough that.I don't know how toexplain it, but-No, Iagree with you.And I do thesame thing.I mean, it's notlike a, it's notlike a one waylike of,see, I, I, itdoesn't matter tome how anybodypracticesand I even talkabout itin my book,as far as like,you need to beconnectedspirituallyin some way,shape or form.And it doesn'tmatter howit's done,whether youprefer aorganizedreligionor, you know,you have your ownpractice that youfollowspiritually,as long as youare connected tosomethingthat's higherthan yourself,then I think thatwe're on therightpath, right?100%.I would agree.Yeah, 100%.And yousaid you do-Just the conscience.You do soundbaths for people.Like, do you gosomewhere andlike almost likea yoga studiotype conceptand people-Yeah.So in the summerthat I'm,I mentioned theYacht Club thatwe belong to onthe lawn,right next to theriver, I offersoundbaths there.And so I'vetaken, plus wewere sailingand doing a lotof fun stuff.So I took a breakfrom thesound baths.One school kickedin becauseI was doing,I was very busy,a lot of work.And now we'removing into thewinter monthsand up here,everybody's gonnastarthibernating again.So I thinkit's time.I've had a coupleof people ask meto dosound baths.So I'm going torespond to them.And yes, one is ayoga studio.I think it'sactually aPilates studiothat I'll bedoing, but italso facesthe river.So I'll bedoing that.And then I had amaid of honorasked meto do onefor her wedding,the weddingparty, thebridal party,like aprivate one.I was like, okay,so I gotta getback to her too.That isso, so cool.Are they Gen Z?Are they like intheir twenties?Yeah.Yeah.Oh, I don't knowhow, no, no.I think thisgirl's like 30.So she's a youngmillennial.Those youngergenerations arejust so muchhealthierthan we were atthat age.Oh my God.They're like, somany of themaren't evendrinking.Like they're justso about wellnessand way more.It's just abeautiful thing.I wanted to, onthe questionnairethat we had youfill outbefore coming on,one of the thingsyou wrote aboutwas the darknight ofthe soul.What were youreferringto on that?So the dark nightof the soul iswhen you,you start to seeyourself, theparts of yourselfthat you'reunconscious to.That for example,yourspouse tells youthat you'relike this.You do thesecertain things.You're this wayand you deny itbecause your egois protecting youconstantly,protecting,putting up that,you know,and then you getinto, and it'sdark nightof the soulis when you seeyour shadow self.When you're ableto pull yourselfaway enoughand observe yourown behaviorsand to reallytruly understandhow toxic thatyou were.Right?And then comesthe dark night ofthe soul.It's that momentin time thathappenswhen that flashhappens and yousee yourselfdoing all ofthese thingsand saying yourattitude, yourtone,your, you know,and you're like,oh shit.And I mean, whenI saw it, it waslike movie clips,like just like,do, do, do, do,do, do, do.And I was readingout of the fogand I was like,and it was like,what's a healthyrelationship?What's anunhealthy,healthy, healthy,not healthy.And all of asudden I started,well, I do that.I do that too ontheunhealthy side.And I was like,oh my God.And then I justsaw it like allat once,everything all atonce, all at thesame time.And in thatmoment, like Ijust emotionallycollapsed.Like I wassitting in mybed, I'm likepropped up withpillows, I havemy blanket on andI'mreading this bookand it just alllike emerges inon you, like,justdarkness, right?And so I throwthe book, I'munder the covers,I'm bawling.I'm like, I seemyself, I seeparts of myself.Yeah.And so that'swhat the darknight ofthe soul is.And I mean, youcan have many ofthem throughout alifetime.Yeah.Yeah, thatmakes sense.It's probablyalso one of thefirst stepstowards realhealing, I wouldthink, right?100%.Cause you thentruly are beingauthenticand honest withyourself.So then you cantrulystart healingwhat you reallyneed to heal.Yeah.I feel like inthat phase, soit'd bemore rapid.It's thatenlightenment,acknowledgement,maybe awarenessthat isgoing off.Maybe I don'tknow, I don'tknow what out ofthe fog is,but if I thinkabout it, it'syou're coming outof the fogof murkiness typeof thing, right?Now you've gotsome clarity onsome thingsyou're not realhappy with.Yeah, "Out of theFog" is a book byDana Morningstaraboutnarcissisticabuse.And so she'stalkingabout the abuse,and then she'stalking about,and this is whywhen you've beenin such adysfunctionalfamily yourwhole life,and what'snormalized andwhat feelslike homecompared to whenyou'rereading a bookand when they'retelling you,this isnarcissisticbehavior, this ishealthy behavior.You don't leavenarcissisticsubconsciousbehavior patternsfrom the timethat you wereborn all the wayuntil you're inyour 40swithout havingsome of your own.Yes, and that'srough is when yourealize,shit, I've donesomenarcissistic shit,I have somenarcissistictendencies.That's roughbecause you knowhow bad,that how painfulthat is,and how much youcan hurtothers with.It's one of themost deathlythings I thinknarcissism,it's justdestroying.I agree, I agree.I always,honestly, and Ithink that whatyou're doingand what you'reputting out therecould also be aguide for people,for parents,and a support tothem so that theycan bebetter parentsby healing theirowngenerational trauma.They won't, bybecoming thepeople that theirchildren need,then they won'tbe passing,it's breaking thegenerationalcycle.Well, I thinkthat there's ahuge thing that'smissing.By the way, Iagree with you.I don't wannajust say overwhat youjust said,I agree with youon that.But there's otherthings that Italk aboutin my book,and as far asparent alienationthat is connectedto narcissism,it's a huge one.I mean, peopleget divorced andthen they hatetheir ex,and then theytreat them likeshit in front oftheir kids,and they'rewiring their kidsto hate theother parent.And that'sanother form ofnarcissisticabusethat is not onlyto the adultsthat are livingat the childrenthat areinvolved in it,involved in thedysfunctionalsituationwith the twoco-parenters.And there's a lotof emotionallymaturityand a lot ofnarcissism that'sinvolved in that.And I think thatpeople areconfusing parentalienationfor going nocontact withparents.There's a lot oftopicsaround thatthat I'm seeingon social media.And I'm like,well, you just...Because thestory's alsorewrittenfor hitsabout who theirparent is.When a parent isdegradingand telling theirside of the storyto the kid,which they havenobusiness doing.And I think thatthat reallyaffects kids.I talk aboutparentalienation,how to avoid itas much aspossible,and whatyou can do.I talk about thatat the end of mybook too.So narcissismtouches so manydifferent levels.You knowwhat I mean?Having anarcissist,a parent,having anarcissistpartner, you getdivorced,you still have toco-parent.And so you'restill in thisconstantstate of...You can'tget out of it.But it's agood point,because parentalienation ismoreinfluenced, right?And then nocontact is apersonal decisionfor your ownhealing.But it's needingtounderstand that,especially thechild, when theyget older,understandingthey might'vebeen manipulatedinto this.This wasn't theirown decision.That can be ahard wake up callbecause theyprobably arecloser withthe parentwho was doing themanipulation.Now you have toreally look atthat relationshipwith this parent.I just saw aheadline.What a mess.I think it wasYahoo orsomething.It was a headlineabout this womanwho said,"My mom talked meinto separatingfrom my dad,and we justreconnected after43 years,and it was allbullshit."And she's like,"This is amazing.I'm getting toknow my dad,but my mommanipulated meinto thinkinghe was a terribleperson."Right.And so that's it.Oh, it is fuckedup, but it reallyhappens a lot.And if you lookat the researchof Gen X,so Gen X was thefirst generationthat experiencedthe divorce boom.100%.So how many Gen Xkids thatare now adultsalienated bythese methods,unknowingly byone parentor the other?Well, my fatherwas neverin my life.Well, was henever inyour lifebecause he justleft or becausehe was alienated?You knowwhat I mean?There's so manyquestions now.And so that's whyyou're seeingthese peoplereconnectafter 43 years isbecause peoplearestarting to wake upto thenarcissisticabuse after whathappens tothe childand how a childis manipulated toturn away fromtheirhealthy parent.You know, it'sfascinating.And this actuallydoes apply toyou, I guess.There weredifferent eventsthathappened, right?Like there wasVietnam, therewas thesummer of love,there's acid anddrugs culture.So we had thisculturalphenomenon.Kids are born,parents aredivorcing,and you have whatyou justdescribed.So we are thatgeneration ofthis perfectcocktailof some fucked upstuff, really.Perfect storm.You know, aperfect storm.Because then youhave a lot ofkids, Ifortunatelydidn't,but a lot of kidswere in daycareand had theparents divorcedand fightingand talking shitabout oneanother, it hasan impact.And last day hassuchtremendous impact.Yeah, we were thefirstlatch keys too.Like there's so much.Yeah, it's wild.Jenna, I thinkwe're an amazinggeneration.We are survivors,but I do think alot of theGen X menare avoidance.I think thatthere's somethingto that.Oh, sure.And I think Iwould like to seeGen X men midlifestart on theirhealing journeysas much as Gen Xwomen are.Because as Gen Xwomen are ontheir healingjourneys,they're gonnaoutgrowthe Gen X menif they alsodon't lookin the mirror.And that couldcause someproblems.Seriously, soFather's Day,I was likehitting TikTokhard andadvertising,all social mediaoutlets actually,with my book,because it's thesame thing.And it's so knownthat women, Gen Xwomen are,especially in thepoint ofwhere we areand going throughmenopause,we're not puttingup with much shitanymore.And so that's abig problem forour Gen X guys.But I'll tell youwhat, if youhave a womanand she's inmenopause andyou're willing todo the work,man, you just,that's a gift.That's a100% gift.To the woman orthe man?To therelationship.To therelationship.Yeah, but also tothe man because--No, I agree, I'mjust laughing.No, it is.It's the scenario.Yeah, oh, we bothsaid it, yeah.Because actuallyif themen can growand rise to theoccasion, likeyou said,the relationshipwill be closerand betterthan it ever hasbeen, ever.100%.100%, 100%.But they have todo that workbecauselike you said,we don't give ashit anymore.We don't.There are thingswe are not goingto put up withanymore.We just are not.There'sclubs now.I don'tgive a fuck.I know.I mean, we trulydon't know.Yeah, it's thetotal ultimatum.It is.What you justsaid is anultimatum.It is, it is.Deal with it,figure it out orfuck off.Yeah, becauseyou're not gonna,there's justcertain, we'renot, life'stoo short.We did it,we're done.We're done, we'vehad thatconversation.There are thingswhere I have saidin the lastcouple of years,I'm not, no.So figure it out.Yeah, same.You guys willthink I'm crazy.I probably wouldget shitfor this,but I think it'sabout time.I think it'sabout timethat I thinkyou're the rightgeneration.And what I meanby it'sabout time,I thinkwomen are strong.Women have alwaysbeen strongthroughouthistory.It takes two menand women,but women havealways beenextremely strong.And I don't thinkour moms or thegenerationahead of ushas the sameattitude.You guys are thefirst to do it.Have this fuckaround and findout type ofattitude.I think it'sabout time.I thinkit's good.I think it's goodleadership.It helps the nextgenerationof womento not besubservient,because itshouldn't be.So I find itinteresting.As much as I fuckaround and jokeabout it,I do thinkit is legit.I thinkit's good.Well, we arethe mothersof the youngmillennials andthe Gen Z.We are raising alot of womenthat are outthere right now,not taking shit.Are yourdaughtersstronger than youwere attheir age?I don't know.I don't think so.I don't know howto answer that.I think thatthey'venever enduredthe thingsthat I have.So I don't wantthem to have tobe asstrong as I was.Maybe not strongisn't theright word.Maybe moreself-assured ormaybe moreself-confident.I woulddefinitelysay that.I mean, they'reable to voicetheir feelingsa lotmore freely.They're just waymore self-aware.We talked aboutthis earlier inthe podcast.I just feel that,and some GenXers, I thinkthat it's totalbullshitthat millennialsand Gen Z,that they talkabout theirfeelings,but for real,it's way betterthat they do,that they havethe stage for it.I also do thinkthat some cantake that shit tothe extreme.Everything isn'tabout yourfucking feelings.Yeah.Right?Like sometimesshit needsto get done.So I think thatthere'sjust a balanceand I think thatGen Z is right inthe midst of it.I don't knowabout Alpha.I'm a littleworriedabout thembecause I feelthat Gen Z kidshad the GenXer parentsthat were alsoagainsttechnology at thebeginning.We were like,"Fuck that.Fuck that.We still had ourGen X ways.You go knock onthe kid's door.What doyou mean?"And the Snapchatand all the shit.I think that wereally limited,that we had a lotof control overtheirsocial mediaand all ofthat stuff.At least I did asa parentbecause I waslike, "This isnot a good thing.It's good that weas adultshave thisand for our jobsand for all ofthis stuff."But for them, Iwas like,"This is gonnahave a long-termeffect for sure."Yeah.And it has.But I mean, Ijust thinkoverall,I think thatevery generationis gonna havetheir...But I do thinklike whatBrian's saying,I personallythink that Gen Xis pivotal.We're changingthe narrative onso many things,so many thingslike menopause,for example, somany things.So I thinkmillennials andGen Z willrun with itand hopefullycement it.So as Alpha andthe generation iscoming up behind,I think we'rechanging theculture incertain ways.I agree.And I think ourgenerationsbefore uswere so stoicthey didn't havethe space tospeak up.And I think we'vebeen put throughso much shit.We don'tgive a fuck.And so we're justgonna...We don'tgive a fuck.We don'tgive a fuck.So before I askmy last question,do you have anyotherquestions though?I did, I forgetwhat itwas though.Oh, I know.I wanted to bringup one thing yousaid aboutgolden childrenare alsomanipulatedand have theirown formof abuse.And I do agreewith that.A lot of times- What isthe golden?Like thefavored child.The golden child,I thinksometimes dealingwith a lot ofemeshment.Yes, verymuch so.Very much so.And as a result,the parents'expectationsand dreams areplaced onthat childand that child isexpected tolive almostfor the parents'desires, nottheir own.Does thatmake sense?Yeah, 100%.I mean, I feelthat my oldestsister washorribly abusedby my mother andmy father.I feel for her, Iknow that she wasmanipulatedand that she'sused, shewas used.So when you'rebeing used to actas the protectorof a parent as achild, I don'tcare howold you arewhere stories aretold, liesare told.And then it's upto myoldest siblingto protect mymother from me,supposedly.You knowwhat I mean?Like there's justso many layers.And I just feelthat it's justextremely abusiveto anyone that Ido feelthough I wonderlike about thegolden childscapegoat.Like if somebodypresents thatinformationto a golden childwho's also theoldest siblingbecause wehaven't eventalked about likehierarchy issueswithinfamilies, right?And so the ideathat becauseyou're the oldestand the firstgrandchild,the first,you had the firstbaby in thefamily, thefirst, the first,somehow you aremore worthy ofrespect and love.And those thatwere bornunderneath youare less worthy.But to get backto my point,because I don'tbelieve in thatwhatsoever.Like somehowbecause you'reolder and kidsparenting kidsand all the shitthat wegrew up with.But as far aslike, I wonderlike ifthat my sisterwas presentedwith theinformation likeand told,you weremanipulated, youwere used toabuse your sister.Like I wonderwhat her reactionor any goldenchild's reactionwould bebecause I thinkthat it would beone of rage anddisbeliefand they would belike, thatperson'sfucked up.I don't believethat my sisterwould trulybelieve that.I know that atone pointshe was crying,she was superupset because mymotherwould tell herhorrible liesabout me.And so then Iwent to her house one eveningand she told meall of the thingsthat my motherwas telling her,which was that Iwas an alcoholicthat Iwas abusingand I was abusingmy kids.And because mysister lived like45 minutes away,she wasn'tstopping over.Like we only saweach other likecertain events.And she wascrying, she wasbawling.I know she didn'ttell me likeeverything.That was like thegeneralthing of it.And I'm likelooking at herdumbfounded,like how this issupposed to be myfucking mother.My mother'stelling my oldestsister this shitand like this ishow this isgoing down.And so Idid this,this was thefinalconversationabout havingboundariesand talking to mymotherabout this.But this time Ibrought myhusband with me.Remember thefirst time I wentby myself?Brought myhusband with methis timeto witness whatshe says becauseshe was lying.She just keptlying orexaggerating.And I was like,okay, so now theconversation,I initiate thisconversation totry to resolvethe shitthat she's sayingabout me tomy sister.Now remember, I'malso talking tomy sisterand saying thathowdysfunctional she is.She's doing this,she's doing that,she's doing this.But my sister'stellingmy mother,like we're goinground and roundand roundand round andround, all thisshit's going on.And so now she'sgot to flipthe script.It's thenarrative thatit's gotta bethat it's me.It's not her,it's me.Right, of course.That she's nothaving problems,that she'sperfect,that she's thesavior inthe familyand she's allowedto just talkabout whoever thefuck shewhenever shewants to.And so I go toher and I ask forboundaries.She explodes,she's enraged.No, I'm thefucking mother.Who the fuck doyou thinkyou are?You don't fuckingcome in here.You don't talk tome aboutall that shit.Then likeliterally, andthen I'm like,you're sayingthings tomy sister,saying that I'mabusing mychildren,cannot speakabout me in thisfashion.Do youunderstand that?And she's like,then shedenied it,like thegaslighting.Now my husband'ssittingthere, right?Like he's notpart of theconversation.He's observing,which Iasked him to do.And until shestarts to say andtry to say thatshe didn't,that she didn'tsay that,that she didn'tsay that tomy sister,that she didn'tsay it during themiddle of ourconversationbecause she did,she like startedverballyattacking meafter theboundaries thingsand telling meI was abusing mychildren.And thenliterally 10minutes later,when I wasexplaining her,you have to,after she calmeddown and stoppedscreaming at melike a lunatic,then she gaslitme right from myhusband,telling saying,you know, thatshe didn't,she neversaid that.She never saidthat I was, Inever said thatabout you.And then a monthafterthat or more,I don't know howlong, how muchlonger it was.I think it wasalmost a yearafter thatbecause I wasjust continuingto go moreand more lowcontact,less and less.But after thatconversation, nowshe paintsthis pictureand tells mysister, myoldest sisterthat my husbandwalked in therelike the heavy.He sat on thecouch, he's five,five, like,he's a small guy.Yeah, well, hewalks in asthe heavy.I'm like, hewasn't a heavy.He barely even,the only time hespoke waswhen he,she wasgaslightingsaying, I neversaid that.I never said thatyou were abusingyour kids.And I'm like, youdid, you did, yousaid it now.You said it 10minutes ago.And he's like,and she looked athim toinvite him in.And that's whenhe spoke up andwas like, yeah,you did.After that, oh,he was, he was,remember I toldyou earlier thathe waseverything.He waseverything.Like she would goto his, the workto siteswhere he workedlike countryclubs that shedidn't belong tothat he worked inand would justopen up the doorsand walk in like,hello, I'm here.My son-in-law didall of this work.Crazy, crazy.But you know, shewas super proudof him, right?Until he wentagainst her.But when you setboundaries,the person whohas the mostextreme reactionis the reason whyyou're settingthe boundary.And they hate it.They hate it.They get more andmore enragedthe harder youhold yourboundary.But I always tellmy kids,that's when youknow you have tohold it thestrongest.Is when somebody,the more enragedthis person is,is showing youwhy you need tohold thatboundary.Because it's theperfect exampleof that.But I think foryourolder sister,she was, I thinkyour mom,it was on.There was noindividuation.Your sister wasjust like anappendage,probably anotherappendage.It's like, it wasa totalenmeshment fromthe start.Your sister maybedidn't even havea chanceto ever really bewho she could be.Because shebelongedto your mom.Does thatmake sense?Like Ithink you do.With that, I mean.She was,well yeah.And I mean, mymom was a babywhen shehad my sister.So my lastquestionis always,where do you seeyourself infive years?I see myself on asailboat.(laughs)Somewhere in theFloridaKeys maybe.Justenjoying life.That's where Isee myself.But that's notreally realistic.I think I haveabout sevenbefore I'm goingto retire.So more like inseven years,that's where I'mgonna be.But I'll be atthe end ofretiring as ateacher.Hoping that theValor ofGeneration Xresonateswith peopleand they takeaway some of mylife lessonsand they're justbetter for it.And the nextgenerationto come.That's the kindof legacy that Iwanna leaveand be rememberedfor the years ofservicefor others.Yeah, that'swonderful.That's wonderful.And yourcourses too.Yeah.That arehelping people.And the soundbaths andeverything thatyou are,you're offeringhelp and toolsand outletson so manydifferent levelsof healing.You know, thebook is ahuge one,but then there'sso many branchesoff of that.Yeah, I know.It was a lot.To get all ofthat together.And it took a lotof time.It took manyyears to do allof that.So it wasn't likean overnight sortof thing.But yeah,I agree.I definitely,sound bathschanged my life.Writing,journaling,that's somethingthat I've alwaysconnected with.So that was kindof a naturalstep for me.And just beingable to,well, this wasone thing.I was in church,it wasfunny, Brian.My husband likesto go to churchsometimes.So we weretalking aboutthis earlier.You were inchurch and thepastor at thetime saidsomethingabout when youheal, you serve.And I was like,and I felt likehe was speakingdirectlyto me and I waslike, okay, sothis story has tobe told.And the story hadto be told.The course is tobe built.And so the soundbaths just forfamily andfriends locally,just to helpregulate ournervous systems.Because if wetalked about that20 years ago,regulate yournervous system,people would havelooked at us likewe were crazy.But. Absolutely.But it's not now,thank God,honestly.It's amazing thatall of thesetools havereally cometo fruition rightas Gen X is readyto accept them.I agree.It's kismet.It's interesting.I'm a skeptic ofthe nervoussystem concept.I have been, butI think you mayhave alleviatedit earlier.The way youdescribed itaround yourcortisol levelsor elevated inthat your nervoussystem is in syncwith that.So if youactually loweryourcortisol levels,your nervoussystem freaks outin a sense.I'm rephrasingit, but that waskind ofwhat I heard.And that makessense to me.So you finallyexplained it tome, who's like,because I hear, Ijokinglywith her,it's like we heara lot of psychobabble stuff.The narcissism,the gaslighting,all thedifferent terms.He means onsocial media.He doesn't meanour guests.Yeah, no, I don'tmean it.No, Iagree though.Yeah, notour guests.But show droplike you're anavoidantand you're beingan avoidant.It's like knockit off. But it'saccurate.Yeah, but it'slikeknock it off.Then it's likeyour gaslighting,knock it off.Accurate.You're being anarcissist,knock it off.Narcissistictendencies, Idon't say you'rea narcissist.But I think thatwhole nervoussystem conceptthat it finallyresonated.So Iappreciate that.Thankyou, Denise.That makes sense.You're welcome.I got you.Stick togetherthe gymnastswimming here.Right, thank you.And by the way,I've said many ofthe same thingsto my husband, soyou're notalone, Brian.But it does makea world of adifferencewhen we areconscious to ournervous systemsof state and ourcortisol levelsand how toxicand our entirebodies become inregards toinflammationand leading todiseases and allkinds ofother things.So that'sinformation thateverybody,no matter whatcircumstancesyou've beenthrough,that everybodycan benefit from.I think it's animportant bit ofinformation.100%.100%.I mean, Denise,we can't thankyou enoughfor sharing yourstory with us,with ourlisteners.The Valor ofGeneration Xtruly is a guidefor healing forour generation.I think it issomething thatevery Gen X-ershould havesitting on theirnightstand or intheir caror on their desksto go to whenthey need thatguidanceor for moreinformation justto help themon theirhealing path.I think it's soimportant and thefact thatyou're offeringthesecourses for freeto go along withthe book.You get thesecourseswith the book.It's really, it'sall these toolsthat can help ourgeneration.So I encourageall of ourlistenersto go purchasethis book.It'll belife-changing, Ithink, for them.Yeah, absolutely,and Iappreciate it.So just forpeople to knowwhere they canfind it,it'savailable on Amazon.Just type in thesearch at theValor ofGeneration X,it'll comeright up.It's only $19.97,but it'sextremelyvaluablefor sure.And my contactinformationis in there.So if anybody'sinterested intaking any of thecourses,for each of thechapters,there's prettymuch a courseconnected to it.So you can takethe whole thing,like, or justbits and pieces,but it'sall free.And I'd be happyto send that overyour way.My email addressis in thebook as well.So justsend an email.We'll open it inthe descriptionof the podcast.And I know you'regoing to, inthe future,right now thewebsite's beingrevamped alittle bit,but once it's up,we're going tohave that in theshow notes.So it may not bein thereright away,but it will becoming in thereso people canalso go to that.But yeah, I mean,you getthis book,and with it, youget these coursesto go along withthis book.It's just ano-brainer,honestly.Honestly, you getthebackstory too.I think Nicoletouched on it,but you've beenso open withyour story,and it's anincredible one.I think it'lljust add better,more value andcontext as you'rereading throughthe book.So I thinkthat's cool.100%, 100%.And again,thank you.It's just beensuch a pleasureto have you on.And spendthis time,thank you forgiving us so muchof your time.Oh, thankyou guys.I appreciate youso much.And it's trulybeen my honor tobe on yourpodcast.So I'll continuewatching andlisteningand cheering youguys on.Thank you, weappreciate that.And for ourlisteners,if you have anyquestions orcommentsfor Denise,you know where toleave them.She'll see themon social media.If you wannaleave them onYouTube,anywhere,she'll see it.If you have anycomments orquestions forBrian or I,you know that wealways see that.We love to hearfrom you.And we will seeyou nexttime, bye.(upbeat music)