Welcome to GenX Adulting and today we have artist Coco Mase with us. Welcome, Coco. We're so happy to have you here. It's our pleasure. Our first question is always, what year were you born? Um, 1972, baby. Yes. You're right there. You're one year younger than us. So you're kind of right in the middle like we are. Those ears matter. They matter big time. Where were you born? I was born in Illinois, actually in Streeter, Illinois, couple hours south of Chicago. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep, they were neighbors. Yeah. Yeah, across the street from each other. Okay, so they knew each other all through elementary, junior high, high school. dad's family traveled quite a bit. His family traveled all over the world, lived in California next to Roy Rogers. His dad managed plants. And then my mom lived in Juliette, then Streeter, Illinois. And she lived across the street from my dad. And when he came home from Vietnam, he was drafted. ah I guess he was standing in the driveway and she was out in the yard and there you go. Kiss bit. they didn't know each other in high school then. No, but their actual siblings did. They're siblings. My aunts used to play together and they're actually still friends. Yeah. your dad was drafted. So did he not go to college? He did go to college, um but ended up that um journey was short-lived and then he was drafted. He played like D1 basketball. Yeah. Somewhere down in Virginia, I think. I actually don't even remember. Yeah, he was an avid basketball player. That was a huge sport in our house. So, um yeah. So he went to college for D1 basketball and then. he didn't really care for it And I think during the time he was home the draft went and then he was drafted for yeah And how long was he over in Vietnam? Do know? He actually never got sent over, so he was in the army, um I wanna say maybe two, three years, because the draft is shorter, don't quote me on that, but um he just prepared for it. He went to different camps to do like sharp shooting and all this other stuff. Almost went to Kent, actually. Yeah, it was a rough time, I remember. He doesn't really talk about it much. um that's amazing, though, that he never got sent over. Yeah, so he said he was on the airplane quite a few times to take off, but it never took off, like never got sent. So, but I know he lost quite a few friends at that point. Yeah, yeah. So they met when he returned. Yeah, yeah, when he was out of the army. And did they start dating immediately, pretty much? I think so. I don't really know that part of it, but I do know. Yeah, I think they got married and they went off to college at Bradley University. Illinois. So they got married. I assume they got their own place. And then they both attended Bradley University. My mom was 21. They were pretty young. And did they go all four years and graduate from there? My dad did graduate, but my mom, think, had me in the interim. So I don't think she graduated at that time. then due to his father having, um managing a plant, my dad ended up working for him. And then at that point, my dad just, I guess they wanted to leave Illinois at that point and they moved. They wanted to pick a place and they ended up picking New Jersey. So are you the oldest? I am the oldest. Now, uh what other siblings do you have? I have a sister, Elizabeth, um who is a year younger and she is my best friend. And I had a brother, I have a brother, he lives in heaven. um His name is Dan. And yeah, there were three of us. There are three of us. Were they also born in Illinois? No, actually we were all born in New Jersey. No, my sister was born in Illinois, my brother was born in New Jersey. Okay, so you and your sister were born in Illinois. Your parents, okay. And then your parents decide we're getting out of here, moved to Jersey, but that wasn't related to your grandfather's business or it was to your dad? so I think one of the companies had an opening that was one of the other sister companies. so down in Wharton there was a company down there, glass company that he ended up moving to. He used to live in Scotch Plains when he was in high school. He went to the high school down there. Okay, your grandfather did? Your dad did. Okay, so they were in Jersey and then went to Illinois. The grandparents moved around a bit. The grandparents moved around a bit. I get it. I mean, she always worked part time. She's a musician. So she was in a band. She worked as the organist at our church. She did music lessons. So she always worked. Yeah. So what instruments does she play? my gosh, what doesn't she play? uh Her main um instrument is the piano, but we grew up with her playing the accordion, Gulls. um The flute, she plays a little bit of everything, but piano is her main, and she sings. When she was in a band, what did she play? She was the singer. Yeah. lady by day, rocker by night. That's amazing. That's amazing. What a double lifestyle. Would she go to different like bars or clubs around the area? I was so young that I don't remember because I was like five or seven, you know, uh but yeah, I think they kind of just did some local things. Do you know the name of the band? That is so cool though that she did that. I love that. And so you guys grew up in a home full of music. Music, art, mm-hmm. Yeah, all of the above. So when you were in elementary school and did you guys call it junior high or middle school? Elementary school. No, no. then the next. Junior high. So when you were in elementary school and junior high, did what extracurriculars did you participate in? Were you into sports, art, music, theater? In the younger grades, I was really only allowed to do the arts. I wasn't allowed to do sports, actually. I actually don't know why, but I never really asked, to be honest. um I did a lot of singing, plays. We had art lessons, dance lessons. um were you specifically told you couldn't do sports? No, we just weren't offered it. I honestly don't even know if it was a thing my, you know, generation did at that young age. I know in high school there was like obviously competitive sports, maybe in middle school there was soccer, but I don't remember. I don't remember anything younger. I wonder if it was, cause I know you played um like football, but I wonder if it wasn't as prominent with girls. Do you remember? ah There was softball and probably soccer maybe. Soccer wasn't a huge sport when, yeah, no. So you did mainly art in elementary school and junior high. sports was very different back then. wasn't like, you know, there were first grade travel teams. It was probably like middle school. Very correct. Because I know Brian always played sports. Full disclosure, Coco and Brian are from the same town. um But you, was not travel. was like had a travel basketball team when I was in seventh and eighth grade. Yeah. So junior high. I do remember playing tee ball. We were the Packers and there were three sisters that were on our baseball team. I don't remember. where the girls went. maybe, mean, for sure for Gen X sports was not like this now, not even close. Also, so few parents were taking kids in. You had to fend for yourself. So many Gen Xers had to fend for themselves. There wasn't like like we had to ride our bikes everywhere, you know, and if you didn't, couldn't get on your bike at 10 years old, you had to go with your parents. So where'd my mom go to church? Where'd she go play practice? So we all, we all just kind of went with that. Yeah. Right. Yep. have that typical Gen X childhood where you would just leave and have to be back when the streetlights came on, basically? If you took off on your bike. Yep, right on Tyler Street, right there. There was like a little cul-de-sac and everybody played in it. There was a park down there too, Tyler Park. um Yep, we had just basically in at night. No one was allowed in the house. Couldn't play in the house. We could play in the garage. We had talent shows in the garage. We had lots of them with like, Laurie Acosella. I remember. that's Where? Yeah, so, OK, up by Warren Road, that's called Tyler Park. Yeah, OK. That's what I picture what Tyler Park was. ah You've been up there. forget why. You go up Stanhope Road and then you kind of go past Helen Morgan. You're going up the road and then you. Yeah, kind of hit a flat spot, then it. kind of dips, goes up again a little bit and you take a right. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. That's a cool neighborhood. It was, it was fun to grow up in. You know. a great location. I love that park. had the low rim basketball hoop. If we got older, we could dunk on them in like eighth grade or freshman year. There's a tennis court there too, I think, right? Yeah. remember the metal slide, the whole bit, the rockers flying all over the place. And the merry-go-round thing, did you guys have that? They would spin and you'd spin it and then try to jump on and go flying and all those, all the things, the death machine. And meanwhile, no one's checking to see where any of us are, what we're doing, if we have food, water. It's a great neighborhood for throwing snowballs at cars, actually. It's like they'd come down to Stanhope, you could pelt them and then dip. Yeah, Brian did all that bad stuff. No. think guys might have a little different motivation. The girls, you know, we're just lollygagging around with our um dollies in the basket. m yeah. OK, so when you hit high school, um did your interest in arts intensify? Did you diversify your interest at all? Did you try sports then or did you pretty much stay? Um, well, I think through junior high, cause our junior high was seventh and eighth. Um, I just basically danced and did performing all the way through high school, but in high school it got more serious. So I used to leave, um, high school the last period of the day, they would put gym. This is when they allowed you to do this. Um, we didn't have rotating schedules like they do today. So like they stayed one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Yeah. eighth class I would leave high school and go to New Jersey Ballet and dance down that way for a couple years. I'm on West Orange. It was in the oranges down there. So we'd go down there a couple, three times a week and then Saturdays. So. you start dance? gosh, little. We had this little studio down in the plaza. It used to be where Potts' hot dog was. Potts' hot dogs. But it was called Barbara Bronson Dance Studio. And it was this little tiny studio. We started there. And then we went to Kempson. Dance by Kempson was like a huge thing um in Sparta. yeah, everybody went there. And then I left that to go to... ah New Jersey Ballet in high school. So yeah. have to audition? No, I mean it was a school, you know, so you auditioned for the levels you're in, that Ballet, you didn't have to audition for New Jersey Ballet? Okay. So, okay. Did your mom teach there? No. Nope. You got to tag along with your mom, you were saying, right? And go to her music lessons and stuff. That's cool. But I was going to say by high school, you're probably driving yourself down to New Jersey Ballet, right? Well, I think my mom went, I went with another friend. Her name was Christina Raskoff. Hi, Chris. She's a writer, beautiful poet. So I would go with her. But I think my senior year, by my senior year, I stopped dancing and then just focused on the visual arts. So was dance, and I don't know if it was like this. I know um you were probably as a mom way more into dance because my our daughter only danced for like two years when she was little and then moved on to sports. But I mean, I know how it's gotten because I have mom friends who have daughters and dance. um When you were in dance, was it as intense then as it was for you as a mom of a daughter who did dance? So I want to see the dance world in like New York is very different than the dance world out here in the suburbs. It's very competitive competition based out here, but in New York, like I was going to classes right across from Lincoln Center, there was this woman called Madame Darvash. She used to teach the Met Ballet. would, my mom at that time was, had students at the Metropolitan Opera. And we would run, we'd get to go under the mat and we would, I'd watch like, Baryshnikov take, you know, class. I'd watch Domingo Pavarotti. Like we'd watch all these like famous artists. like classical art at that time in the nineties in New York, you know, it was very regimented. My teacher had a ruler, a stick. She's Russian. She's Hinnia. If you didn't do it right, everybody had to do it over. So, you know, by 15, I had a very strong work ethic um out. But the competition, we didn't do that. I stopped all that. um My daughter, well, when she danced, I took her out of competition around high school time. um But competition, the whole competitive dance world is... Um, is also hard itself. It's just a different genre of what a dancer likes to do. I've choreographed for that quite a bit and, um, it's a different intensity. So, um, but like there's, there's a difference between like sometimes like the classical world sometimes, and then the competitive dance world in that area. They can intermingle. Um, and I think the dance world's trying to do that more and more. They're both a lot. I'm just going to say. So for someone a layman who has not been in that world at all, really. So I understand. And for any listeners who don't know, would you say classical dance, the way I'm understanding it is for um the goal is to perform in front of an audience where competitive dance is truly to compete and win titles? Is that am I understanding you? competitions for classical ballet. and they're all over the world. I mean, you are up against people like phenoms who've been tagged since they were 10. It's just a different type of competition. It's a different type of dance, but I wouldn't even say. It's more of a technical space in ballet, but I would say, It's a different energy competitive, like the dance competitions today. I feel like there's like a big team. Like sometimes you go in there and everyone's screaming. It's a lot like, I don't want to say it's a lot like cheer, but it's like very community based. And I feel like the classical world sometimes could be isolating because it's really individually based. Um, I think both have their benefits. and both also have their downsides too. You gotta be careful. I think both are fairly intense. I'm sure. competitive almost reminds me of maybe like a travel sport energy at times. well, yeah. We were at Disney's Wide World of Sports for like a soccer tournament years ago, and I peeked my head into their little auditorium and there was a dance competition. Crazy. Crazy. It is. It's a lot of screaming. It's a lot of fun. But I will tell you, like, if you like dance team, like, you know, like the New York Knicks has a dance team, like, if you like that kind of dancing, that is definitely competitive competition dancing. Cheer, like, kick line. There's a lot of that. um That is that form of dance. So it just depends on what you like and what you want to do, really. So classical is that more when you're saying classical you're talking about ballet mainly. yeah, modern, yeah. Jazz can be in both. It's just approached a little differently. Like you have classical jazz, um like Luigi, and that is more of like a classical Broadway approach. And then you have lyrical jazz, and then you have all these contemporary spaces that are in more of like a competitive dance competition. And so you've worked with both as a choreographer. So um how hard is it to switch hats between the two styles when you're doing that? I think, mean, just for speaking from my own creative space, like, I mean, I was doing contemporary uh point, like ballet years ago. Like, I'm trying to think like, how old is my daughter? So maybe 15 years ago. And some of the stuff was kind of new. Some of it wasn't. I love experimental work. uh And then the ballet companies today kind of have contemporary spaces. A lot of viewers love contemporary work because it's a little bit more, I don't want to say ephemeral, but ethereal. I don't know. It's not too terribly hard to go between the two. You just got to know how to approach it. It's like you got to know tap to. Choreographed tap. Yeah. Is it pretty nuanced? So if somebody's, let's say their dream is to be a dancer on Broadway, does it matter which one they choose or should someone lean more towards classical or towards competitive or does it not matter? Um, I would say all the above matters. would say, you know, getting a great ballet classical training with some heavy jazz and then understanding the types of genres that are thrown at you. Cause when you go on Broadway today, you know, you also need to do tap. So, and some shows have hip hop in them. You know, some have, um, you know, all sorts of genres today. So it's not just like. I would say classical jazz. say, might say classical jazz. Dancing in heels is like your typical, you know, sweet charity, chorus line, cabaret. But at the same time, you've got other things like take the lead, which is ballroom dancing and hip hop together. So yeah, it's like you have your ballroom dancers and then you have your hip hop. So it's just as, it really is. you know what you're good at and then just go audition for that. uh think about it, because music continues to evolve and people continue to dance. Yeah. So there's a melding of different styles, I would assume. Music is growing, right? At least with contemporary, it's always growing and fluid, would assume to match. there's some really beautiful spaces coming out of like beautiful dancing coming out of some spaces in Africa actually with the onset of like Instagram and Tik Tok. There's some really, really cool like beautiful people who are just showing what they're doing in their own countries and spaces. so. uh If you follow that and you like it, it's really kind of interesting to see how people move organically from their insides within their own cultures and spaces. I never thought about that. That is really cool. How social media could give a window into different types of dance. absolutely. Very cool. So you said you spent a lot of time in the city when your mom would go in there um and you really got some unique experiences. mean, to be able to see Baryshnikov, what I can imagine, what ages were you in there doing that? How old were you? What range was that? young in high school, 15. Maybe, yeah. Very cool. So. So you had, mean, for where it is, the town you grew up in was small town, fairly rural, especially back then. uh But you were given this balance of the city and of going to West Orange to the ballet school and going into the city. uh I would not say that was the norm for that area for teenagers to have that and to be able to leave early from school to go to a totally different part of New Jersey, completely different. How would you say um having access to those areas throughout those formative years affected you? I mean honestly looking back I never really thought about it but like For me, was just my childhood. I'd go into New York and dance at Broadway Dance Center and the cast of Cats is there. Janet Jackson's choreographer is in class with me. She's auditioning us. I was 12, 13, 14. And you don't really realize what you're in until you're out of it. And then you're like, wow, I was really like... And it was the norm. And I really honestly say, I had very educated parents. My dad traveled. quite a bit as a child and my mom being in the arts wanted us to have like these beautiful experiences. you know, they normalized getting out of town. They normalized diversity to the best of how they could. They normalized uh arts at a high level. Like it wasn't just like, let's go color. Like it was a living for us, you know, so, and my dad, um We grew up with my mom had a studio in the house. She had grand pianos. She had her lessons. So it was never demeaned, if that makes sense. It wasn't belittled either. It wasn't like, oh, Christine's dancing. It's, Christine's really like, we're going to get her to the level that maybe she'd want to do this as a living. Which I look back and I'm like, wow. I think back then my parents were kind of rebellious in that spot because they really, I wanted to go to school to be a doctor, go in the Air Force maybe and they're like, no, you're going to be an artist. And I'm like, okay, you listen. Was that right from the start? you, only memory is that you're going to be an artist. They were like, you need to be an artist. And I'm like, okay. So that was very important to them. And what's interesting is that your dad, what he did for a living wasn't related to art, but his own personal interests were strong. It's his soul's breath. So my mom, when we were growing up to be, it sounds very, it was kind of bipolar, but my mom was in the church. We sang these church choirs. So we, when we were with her, we could listen to classical music or Christian music. But then my dad, loved rock and roll, so we listened to everybody. We had every eight-track of everybody we could possibly have, know? ah So, know, Donna Summers, James Brown, Dolly Parton, ABBA, you name it. We had the eight-track and the pinto to put it in. But it was just, we had a very high exposure of diversity in music, you know? So. just open, kept your world so open right from the start, exposing you to, they really took advantage of living so close to the city, which I don't think was the norm for a lot of people that live in Jersey in general. And especially in Sparta. Actually, is it okay? Wait, real quick, is it okay that I say Sparta, the town? Okay. Especially in the town, I don't think it was taken advantage of living so close. You're smiling. I'm smiling because she thinks Sparta's this ass backwards, rural community. think that. She doesn't realize it's 40 minutes outside of New York. Yes. Yes. I don't think that. going to New York. I do know the crowd that I hung out with, like one of my friends, rest in peace. You her mom was a rockette. So we went to New York. Another friend of mine, uh Christina Raskoff, we went to New Jersey Ballet together. Her dad was a doctor. Like I think like there was thinking back then that like, It's about in the arts, like let's try other spaces. But that's who I hung with, I don't know. And another friend of mine, he's one of my mom's students, Michael Schell, he was singing at the Met, opera. And my sister too, was doing, well she did cheer, but she was dancing also, I think trying to model at a young age. think, I don't know, I don't know. I never really asked my parents, but I definitely know that they're big on exposure, travel. My mom traveled quite a bit. She came from a divorced parents and her father would take her for the summers and travel all over the world. My mom has been everywhere. So, you know, she... That is so cool. What did your grandfather do where he just took her all over the world? My grandpa was from Scotland, from Edinburgh, and when he came over, he came over with nothing. It's kind of crazy. We have his dresser. looks like an end table with like one drawer, but he was a Shriner. Traveling was very important to him. He felt like that was education in itself. So he took my mom to so many places. so she did get to experience quite a bit. So I think between her and then my dad traveling, they're like, we got to get these girls. No, it makes sense. I think it's awesome. And to further it, I do not think sport is a suspect. I don't want anyone getting mad. it's cool for your mom traveling so much. She wasn't intimidated by New York. Yeah. She grabbed your girls and said, let's go in and and embrace it and lived it, which is cool. It's very cool. And that you were able to find friends that also kind of live that parallel path, because I don't know how normal I'll say in general for Gen X. how normal it was to, you know, I feel like everyone was kind of insulated in their groups and their cliques. It was very, was very breakfast club. So you would hang out with people who would do like minded things, you know, so that you had your group that was taking it because I know for my time living there, I tried to take advantage of going into the city as much as possible. I viewed it as this treasure to just be in there as much as you can. So, ah but I don't know if I think Just like we live by the beach, but we don't go to the beaches nearly as much as we should. You just forget that something's there. So I think that the fact that with Miami, same with Miami, we don't go to Miami. We should go more often. Exactly. So I think it's cool. I think it's cool that you were exposed to that. Your sister was exposed to that. I assume your brother was like the whole family was exposed to this going and doing things and not just existing, you know, and and that you're going to West Orange. So you said you stopped though senior year. I'm honestly junior, senior year, somewhere in there. I think maybe my senior year I stopped because um part of it was in high school. I was very isolated. Like I didn't really get to hang with like people in school and I really struggled with that. Even though I had some art friends, I was always doing things outside of school. So I wanted to quit my senior year and do the school play like I never got to do the school play. Mm-hmm. And I knew I wasn't going to go to college for dance. uh And I think it was just me having danced in New York all those years. And I wanted to go to school for visual art. So I just really focused on that that year. Did you burn out on it? Maybe, but I danced in college quite a bit. I danced after college. I'm still going to the best of my ability, probably I burned out. I think it wasn't necessarily burnt out is that I have always bantered between visual and performing art. I don't know why. And it took me to like this year, this past year actually at the age of 53. to figure out that I don't have to separate those lives and why I've kept them separate for so long. have no idea. That sounds very Gen X, is to finally get to this point in your life and really be able to take a breath and take a walk and really look around and figure something out. So that makes perfect sense. How did your parents feel when you told them you wanted to stop? I think they were fine with it because they just saw my art. mean, I had been doing art also and won a few awards in high school. And then I was going to Montclair on the weekends also to take drawing classes at times in high school. So they drive me to Montclair University and they hired an artist to come to the house and we would have art lessons. mean, we had art. It just, yeah. when did you know you could, and listeners, I've said this before in episodes, no one in this family can draw. We are not artists, okay? So we always find it fascinating when someone has such an amazing talent that they can just sit down and draw something. When were you aware that you could draw something or that you had this talent? middle school, middle school, high school. And was it one of those situations in school where everyone's drawing something and yours is like insanely better than everyone else? I think it just kind of felt natural. It's just probably maybe if somebody plays a sport and it just felt like home. It just really was dancing on a different level. And now I understand the creativity is somewhat the same. You you're directing a canvas, you're directing a stage, it's somewhat all similar in that way. But I just didn't want to go to college for dance at that point. I don't know. I really honestly don't even know why. But Art kind of took over and I really fell in love with her. Well, you were I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was just going to say it almost feels like you had more of a shift or a heavier emphasis, higher interest in a different form. Makes sense. Or it spoke to your soul more because you just said it felt like coming home. So it probably just settled in you more. Not that you don't love dance, but just it's set in you differently because that you were you were very. Just. in that art world and especially in high school because you're saying you're going to West Orange for ballet school, you're going to Montclair on the weekends for art school. Right. They had like Saturday classes for high school and like Sparta High School sponsored me a few times. They had a scholarship to go there and you would take drawing classes with the college teachers. And so I think I went like for a solid year, one year, my junior year, maybe. m so you're leaving early or you've got, and then you have the artists coming to the house to work with you as well. So I see what you're saying. So you're, you were very enmeshed in it, um, and in dance. And so you get to senior year and you wanted to have a little bit of more high school, traditional high school experiences, like you said, be in the school play. and kind of just enjoy that year a little bit and not be so. So did you get those opportunities that senior year to do what you wanted? I want to say we did South Pacific. Yeah, I loved it. You know, we did choir. I remember going to Canada with the choir team or the choir back in Sparta. I think I just was ready to move on into something different. did you know where you wanted to go to college? I knew I wanted to go to school in New York, but my mom was like, actually, this sounds like contradictory to her support, but she did not want me to go to college in New York City at all. She wanted me to be on like a bigger campus. so I had to pay for a majority of my stuff in high school, you know, so I had to pay for my college applications and stuff. So. I applied to one school. Well, okay, I wanted to go to FIT, Fashion Institute of Technology. However, back in the 90s when we went in, I did take a tour with my mom. It was only a two-year school. It wasn't a four-year. And it was very important to her for me to get a four-year degree. um I really loved fashion at the time. I loved drawing figures. I still love fashion. she really wasn't interested in me going there because of the 2D, two a year degree program, even though so many people in New York City, that's just a misconception in the arts, but so I ended up applying to NYU and yep. And. I actually applied to Rutgers. My mom made me. And I didn't get it. You got into NYU and not Rutgers That seems strange. That seems really strange. OK, so she didn't want you in there, but you still put it. OK. was like, that's where I'm going. m So do you think she wanted you to have more of that traditional on a campus college experience? And that's why she went near them? Yeah. Yeah. a pretty big school. yeah, I think she wanted me to do like more of like, you know, like a Rutgers campus at the time. And I don't think she wanted her daughter to be living in New York at that time. I don't really know. mean, you know. Small town girl going off to the big city. It's like you hear that story all the time. I was fine. Yeah, but you were coming from kind of, I feel like you'd been prepared and spent so much time in New York and had all these different experiences that I don't view you as that small town girl going in the city. It was almost seems like the natural next step from everything you'd been exposed to. I feel so much more at home in a city, especially New York, than I do in the suburbs. Still to this day. Yeah. She cried. Well, yeah. And as most moms do when they're but she accept that you're OK, she's going to be in the city. have to accept it. She was really upset that I wouldn't apply to other schools. you know, back in the day, do you guys remember, like you had to write your essays. Okay, I had to pay for all of my applications. Like you're making like, you know, the CVS now was an ACME. I had to bike to work and pay for all of that. Like on top of going to dance, going to art, like you had to have like money. And so like I could afford two schools. Like I can afford two colleges to apply to. We couldn't apply to 10. em And so once I got in, I'm like, boom, it's my New York school, I'm in. It makes sense. was going to ask you, how did you have time to work with everything you were doing? I had to, I mean, I guess like today, like you gotta work. I had to work to pay for stuff. If I wanted to do anything, I had to work. And then how did being so involved with dance and with art and then having to work, it affect your academics? So were you able to hold those? I mean, I wasn't a 4.0 for sure. I was like a 3.3, 3.5, but my parents never pressured me. I was like up, I come home from dance at 10 o'clock at night and be up till two in the morning, one in the morning doing homework on the typewriter, tick, tick, tick, tick, then repeat. I just have always been that way. That's just kind of life or, you I think when adversity or when... You know, you're challenged with you, got to get it done if that's something you want to do. You kind of, you find that drive. Well, I think like many Gen Xers, we grinded through things because we didn't have really a lot of help or support. Like speaking of college, we had to do all that on our own. No one was like, I know with all of, with our kids, you know, we were there helping a little with them. There was none of that. did get me a tutor. Like they helped me with my English paper. So like the paper I remember having an English tutor and they hired her for me, you know, so to help me get into the colleges, um the two. Yeah. We were so on our own though in so many ways that kids now aren't. I mean, I had to pay for my own PSATs. Now the kids get it for free in school in our state. um If I wanted like tutoring for the SATs called the PSATs back then, they're still called that, I paid for it. I had to pay for it myself. Like it was just how we rolled. And there wasn't like, you weren't gonna be caught dead at home in your bedroom. as far as when you say caught dead at home in your bedroom, you mean chilling, doing nothing. Yeah, that wasn't that. I had a black and white TV in my room. I was lucky the antennas worked, you know, and I had a nice house. I was very privileged. We had all the things. But my parents weren't forthright in giving everything either, so. Did you find that, um because I know this is true for lot of Gen Xers and I'm speaking for myself too, um that you thrived on praise from being productive? Praise as a result of a high achievement? Praise as a result of doing something? Yeah, absolutely. I think that's common. think like even as a child it's like, look, Christine's dancing. look, she's in an art show. And um I think that's natural for a child. But then you get into adulthood, the motivation changes, creativity changes. Did you find you were people pleaser at all? of course, complete enabler. Yeah. Did you find that you were in fight or flight or that you would walk on eggshells at times? yeah, of course. I mean, it was, think the whole culture, in, you know, with adults versus, I don't say adults versus kids, but I would just say like you had... uh You watched your words, right? You didn't speak up in certain situations. And when you did speak up, sometimes people were like, just let it go, or you wouldn't confront the issue necessarily. I mean, there's a healthy balance to that, right? Like not everything needs attention, but there are things that need attention. 100 percent. think a lot of us experience certain traumas that were never acknowledged or dealt with. And then we just kind of compartmentalize that and then kept moving forward. And then I know for a lot of us, we've hit midlife and are starting to actually process stuff that we went through 30 years ago. I think that's happening to a lot of genesis, you know. And I think I know for us, we tried to break that cycle with our own kids. And as far as we accept you for who you are, not for your accomplishments, we want to know who you are inside and give you the space to be, not just do. And I feel like lot of Gen X parents have strived to do that for their kids. Can you relate to that? Yeah, I can't. mean, I don't. I don't know if I was very aware of that when they were younger. I'll be honest, probably, we were just having fun with hockey and dance and Roy was playing cello. mean, everybody just did something. We wanted everyone to like just do something, you know, and like try different things. We were all over that. And then just because Jeff and I are different is as people are like, We were like, let's try sports, let's try arts, let's try cooking, karate. I think we kind of went overboard with our older son. We did everything. I think everyone does that with the first though. They're like the guinea pig. He but also to to his chagrin like he was a difficult child um Like not in the sense. He's like one of the most amazing human adults you'll ever find what an incredible human contributor to the world just like as a child he wasn't sticking to any he didn't really like one of anything and we tried It's just and I don't know, you know One thing he loved was like going into New York City and I'd taken to New York and um unfortunately when 9-11 happened he was old enough to understand when that what was going on because he had come into New York with me working quite a bit. He'd been on film sets and he'd been in photography shoots so he would have us bring him there and then he'd it get built up again and For him, New York became a place for him of, similar to me, like a home base in a way. So he now lives in Brooklyn. Went to college in Manhattan. Yeah, he loves New York City. Yeah, and he's quite diverse in his likes and so he made it work. I think there's a way to expose your kids to all the things while at the same time not tying your parental acceptance and approval to your performance in those things. Does that make sense? Yeah, I do remember saying all the time to the kids, like, because our middle son, like he played travel hockey and that's very expensive, right? And like, you know, do you want to try other things? Let's try baseball. Let's try drugs. Let's try. He was just heck bent on hockey and, you know, going off to college for hockey. And even in college, we were always like, you don't have to like it come from an organic space, you know, at least of desire. And same thing with Sophie in dance and then she ended up playing field hockey and then going back to dance like whatever. Your level of performance doesn't uh reside in my acceptance of you as a human. Right, right. And you're not living vicariously through them is what it is. I can't say I have it because I don't think that would be honest as a parent because my daughter is a gorgeous dancer, beautiful, went to ballet high school in Philadelphia and better ballet dancer than I ever was. Beautiful, beautiful mover. And when she decided to stop and then go to school for math, I cried. I cried. I was sad. And I think my son's last swim meet. I cried and also my son's last hockey game I cried. It just is, yeah you live through, I want to save the energy of it sometimes and I'm not going to deny that I didn't, um but I tried not to. I think living vicariously through them is one thing and it's not the most unhealthy, but when your identity becomes what they're performing at and if they don't play hockey or if they don't, so now your whole identity shattered, that's where it's a little bit. That's where it's different. It's where you, we we've seen situations and know of situations where the parents have completely enmeshed themselves into. their child's experience to the point where there's nothing else. It's just their child. It becomes their identity too. Well, also those like groups, like you get friends with like the hockey parents, right? And so now everyone's going out after the game. I, wasn't, mean, was somewhat my vibe. I'm still friends with some of those moms, but at some point I don't find that healthy. Or like when my daughter danced, you're friends with the moms, but sometimes it can get, it can get quite caddy and like not nice. And it just is like, I find you got to, there's a healthy balance, also what are you teaching your kids, right? Yeah. It's funny what you said about your oldest son, because I feel like we learned a lot with Nathan, our oldest son. And then by the time we got to Dylan is when because he's in travel across and even the beginning of that, we were not balanced because it's so infectious to get wrapped up in it all. And then you also there's FOMO and there's also well, if I'm not as intense, am I not being a supportive enough, am I not taking this Well, you're also looking out for your kid along the way. You're looking out for your kid. But then somewhere along the lines, Brian and I looked at each other and we were like, this is stupid. What's happened? Why are we? Why are we reacting like? Why are we doing this? Like, this is dumb. OK, so it's time. And then we literally took 50 steps back and completely let Dylan navigate it all. And that's when his communication to us and he actually took a season off. almost a year off and we thought we were done and only played for high school and then came back to us and said, I want to go back. oh it was because we gave him that space to own it, trust it. So I think we even learned in that, but it is so easy to get wrapped up in it. But it can get very toxic. And I personally enjoy being 10 steps away from it now. I feel it's very balanced now. I think like hockey, I love hockey and that's like our family's uh sport. um Hockey parents can get a little rough um and when Jackson played goalie, I would have to sit, not even with the parents, I'd have to sit off to the side because even a seven year old, they're saying nasty things about your seven year old. I mean, come on. You know, these are peewees, these are little guys. And then Jackson used to say he could hear it sometimes. And you know, then it creates anxiety in your kids. um And then when he moved forward, you know, then when you have a talented player, a child, one of your kids, if they are talented, then, you know, they're not saving the team. It just becomes, I don't, and one eye-opener was, did your kids play soccer? Our daughter played travel soccer. you guys have like, did, you guys have sage parents? Did you do that? No. What is that? What is it? So Sophie played travel soccer one year, I think like eighth grade, seventh grade, and you wore like this emblem and it was called the Sage parent. I don't know what Sage stands for to be quite honest. I'm thinking like Sage as in like your Sagey. But you had to watch the other parents behavior. Oh, almost like a hall monitor. Yeah, so I, like each parent got assigned, now Sophie's 24, so she was what, 12, so that was a while ago. And so like you're walking up and down and if a parent gets out of hand, you're responsible as that parent to make that parent responsible for their words. And so I'm just like, this is where we're at. Like it's insane sometimes the stuff you hear. Oh yeah, the concept of that I love, but I can't imagine having to monitor the other parents on the team as a parent. I feel I would have been so uncomfortable, especially if you're friends with some of them and then your friend is the one, you know what I mean? Like that kind of puts you in an awkward situation. There was crazy stuff in travel soccer. I was the team mom. There was crazy stuff in rec baseball. Yep. I won't coach baseball here anymore. Like South Florida is a baseball area and I told the parents, these are nine year old kids. was like, look, if a kid strikes out, you cannot be like, just shut up. You know, just be like, crap. Because baseball, you get real close and it's really close. And if a nine year old strikes out when there's runners at second and third or whatever, these people treat it like it's the World Series. And it's like, no, we're not doing that. these are little kids, we're building up their egos and their esteem. But it even took you a while to get to that point as a coach, because you started coaching Nathan. Yeah, wasn't as good with Nathan. But we grow up with our kids. always say that. in that Sparta mode coaching baseball, I'm like, you're nine, but you need to do better. you look back and he's like, But, okay, so anyways, so you're going to NYU, did you do the whole? With NYU, is it the normal live in the dorms thing like any other college? yeah, I went to NYU. I lived in Weinstein Hall right on the northeast side of Washington Square Park my freshman year. Yeah, it was cool. I got in a program that I ended up not liking. um I did not like what I was doing. And back in the day, you were not allowed to just like switch out. Like that wasn't a thing. So I asked to drop down. So it's a strange story, but I got accepted to the graduate program at 18. So I was in my master's at 18. So how does that happen? They pick two undergrads a year to go to the master's program right away. Like right off the bat. And that's due to your talent, I assume. That's amazing. 40 to 50 year olds if you could imagine at 18. Yeah. you're speaking of that you didn't like? Yeah, well, was a lot of, again, like I wasn't in class with people my age. I was friggin, I was 18, you know, I, my classes were Monday through Saturday. I didn't have a day off because it was a graduate program. Um, and the teachers were great. The classes, um, you know, the school was great. I loved NYU. I wanted to stay. But I wanted to drop out of the master's program into the undergraduate program so I could be with kids my own age. And they told me no. So when did you find out that you were going into a master's program? So when you got accepted, you're still living at home. So the hall you lived in, was that for master's students or was that undergrads? was 18 year olds, it was still undergrad. So I'm living with undergrads but going to school with graduate students. Yep, and she was, her name is Christine. And so you accepted it, obviously, because what an honor. Who wouldn't accept that? But not obviously 18. And there's no way for your parents to even know what it would all encompass. So you almost had to go through the experience to even know what it was. So how soon did you know this isn't for me? Probably by like November, because things were going on and I was, I wasn't available to go out with friends. was, it was just a master's level workshop uh Monday through Saturday, you know. Would you have been done in two years or was it so? it still was a four-year program. Maybe three. I honestly don't remember uh because I also had to take, I still had to take English. So I was taking like master level art classes on top of like your gen ed, like English and history and all that. So. So you're going to regular classes with undergrads and then attending. That's a lot. It was a lot. But I did join the ballroom dance team. Yeah. oh it at NYU. So I'm sure that's a highly competitive team to get on, I would assume. So you're doing that. mean, it was just a club. It was fun. You know, it was just something I like again needed people my own age. Yeah. So when you said, I want to go down, they said, no. What happened? I left then. Yeah, I did. It wasn't really what I wanted to do. I was in school for set design It just wasn't the art foundation that I was looking for, if that makes sense. I thought that was kind of like a good mesh between theater and visuals, like performing and visuals. And at 18, who knows what the heck they're doing at 18. I thought that was something that would work for me. I was doing the school play sets. I was doing a lot of background. like painting backgrounds and stuff. So I thought that was maybe something I really wanted to do as a living. um The program was solid. It just was just a lot of probably more mental health like just and really seeing like this wasn't the fit for me. I can't imagine it would be a fit for any 18 year old doing anything. Like it just doesn't really make sense. I think it's amazing that you were offered a master's program in set design at 18. Is that what the program was? Was a master's in set design? was a set design. I didn't apply for the master's program. Like, to get even into the set design program at NYU, I had to be interviewed. So I had to be interviewed. And back then, you had to be interviewed, and you brought your portfolio, and you had to talk to the headmaster. And you had to talk about, I remember just questions about what opera was my favorite. At that time, it was Magic Flute. And we talked about different. sets I'd like to paint and again like at 18 you know and not to say that you're BSing it but in a way you're BSing it you're just like okay like this seems cool something I'd like to do it's in New York it's at NYU and then when they email and not email me they sent a letter saying I got into this like elite program and a scholarship you know it's like what okay anyone would be like, this is amazing. If it was if it had happened nowadays, it'd be all over your social media. Your parents moving on Facebook. It'd be a big deal. So but if you take a step away and you think 18 year old going to college for the first time, master's program, it just isn't going to work. I mean, maybe for certain personalities. Yeah. heavily 40 and over. Yeah, it was super competitive. I bet if because they're older, they're trying to probably compete to get the whatever and probably incredibly misogynistic. they? Was there any sexual harassment? There were issues that was part of some of the situation. I had a female colleague step in at a certain situation. You know, you're in the theater late at night, designing, painting, doing all the things. So there was almost like some sexual assault stuff that could have been happening. assault, there was, you it can escalate where you feel super uncomfortable and you want to leave. How about that? But honestly, mean, like my dad, this sounds so wild, but he was, he's a big man. He was six, three, right? Basketball player. he would, this sounds crazy, but welcome to the Gen X generation. He would change. purposefully chase us around the house, like, and try to, like, help us teach self-defense. And so I never, I'm the eldest, so being the eldest, I cleaned the gutters, I had to tow trailers, I was, you know, plowing the driveway. I just had this, like, chutzpah about me that I was not afraid. um And if I could feel if something was uncomfortable, I'm out, you know? um But it was a different time. Like you didn't go to your headmaster and say, this guy is really making me feel uncomfortable. We just didn't do that back then. Now there was no space for it. it off. There was no space for that. and I can't say how many times I was brushed off as a young woman, you know, so it just is like back then, you know, you were told not to say anything. And if you did, you didn't want to make trouble. And it was just like this dichotomy of a strange, like, you know, it doesn't feel right, you know, it's not right. But you're just going to kind of just ignore it and keep going. And I'm not saying that's right either. I'm just saying that that's how it was. That is how it was. And you grinded through just like everything else. But that combined with you being 18 and probably wanting to have some sort of normal college experience, it all came to a head in November. It's not like you had someone there guiding you through it, having your back, know, putting, putting, helping you put boundaries up, putting this male dominated these guys in line. So that was the last cause that wasn't a safe space. And then you also you want to you seeing your friends doing a totally different having a totally different experience. I mean, they made it to November. I'm impressed. think like my really good friends, one of the, like, there was like four of us, we called our, I forget the name of what we called ourselves, but like there were four of us and the three of them decided to leave the dorms that December and get their own apartment without me. too because I'm in school all the time and that was, now that I'm looking back, that was like just not great. You know, it was just like all the freshman year experiences and that's what I used to say to my kids, just like get through freshman year, at least this semester. Sorry, my cat is on the piano over there. Hey, come here. Hey. You know, I've actually been hired just for attending NYU. I mean, the program is reputable. I think the school is great. um It just didn't work out for me at the time. So, and that had to have been very hurtful also for your three friends to get this place and like just the cherry on top of all the other shit that had been going on. It's kind of like, I'm out. struggled with like, until I probably had my first kid, maybe my latter years in my other school, I really always struggled with female closeness relationships. I think it's just I had a sister growing up, so we were close. But I don't know, girls can be rough. Girls can be mean, very, very mean. And it's insidious and it's quiet, quiet bullying. ah With boys, they hit each other, yelled each other. It's obvious, right? With girls, you could think everything's great. And meanwhile, this girl is getting destroyed. um I went through it personally. My daughter went through it. I'm a mean girls exist. And anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they're talking about. And it's brutal. Yeah, I think my sister went through it more than I did on that level, but I just never really bonded in a way. And maybe I just kind of immersed myself in the arts in that sense. um were intimidating to a lot of girls, too, I would guess, just because you were obviously talented, beautiful, had probably a confidence about you. You didn't even know you had about you because you'd been exposed regularly to these different experiences. It just gives you an energy, if that makes sense. that are younger, I could see they wouldn't be able to handle it. Honestly. Yeah, I mean we just, you know, just, I, that was a very hard decision for me to make, honestly. I remember it still is probably one of the hardest ones to look back on and say what if I, what if I, what if I stayed? But then I wouldn't have where I'm at now, right? So, and then ended up going to another school, um which I found all my best friends and my sisterhood there, so. Where'd you go? I ended up going to University of the Arts in Philly, RIP. It closed last year in like the worst way. It was awful. The art school closed. Yep. They closed their doors in like a very dramatic and traumatic way. And all these art students and teachers just had no job one day and had no school. my gosh, did it happen mid-year? ah I'd have to look back on the date, I want to say at the end of a year or maybe in the summer something happened with the provost. I don't know what happened. I can't say exactly what happened to be quoted, but basically the school lost funds. It lost its license to teach, I guess. Wow. And then they just closed. So that's the whole college. That's crazy. The whole college, the whole college, like it's performing and visual. So it was kind of like an institute, but it was a four year degree on Broad Street. But it was a legit, I mean, so many people went there. So I don't know how big it became, but like I'm trying to think like there had to be. thousand kids there. Like there's visual and performing arts so... Was it right downtown? Or like in Temple or I think we were in that area. We were. So what made you choose that school? Um, my mom. Okay, so how did they react? like, you are not coming home. You will be going to school in January. Because in December I was like, I'm coming home. I'm coming home. And I came home during winter break, interviewed for the school, got accepted and went right into Philadelphia, Center City, Philly. So I went from New York to Philly immediately. Did you live in an apartment or a dorm there? And rooming? had two very messy roommates, Dina and Hot Ness. I forget my other roommate's name, honestly. She was a fibers major, a beautiful... fibers? They make like, weave clothes? Like fibers, like you learn textiles and fibers? Like people who design your fabric, right? no, that's cool. So this was a true art school. Everyone that's there. This was an art school. How did you feel there? I loved it. I literally loved college. I loved it. I felt at home. I had a good time. I had a great time. I had a great education. It was hard. It was challenging. My teachers were phenomenal. I'm still friends with a couple of them. I still see them every year. I lived with one. I lived with my one photographer friend, Jeannie Pierce. I used to babysit her kids. I worked in New York with another teacher of mine. That's how I ended up back in New York City. I just literally loved those college years. It's found my place. Yeah, finally. Well, I went in from set design thinking I'd go into architecture. So in art school, they make you take like, you have your gen ed in regular college. You have what's called foundation year in art. So you take drawing, you take painting, you take color theory. So you have to take all those. um So I focused in architecture, but then they ended up closing the program. So then I'm like, I'm not switching. So then they had what's called a Bachelor of Fine Arts. So you take painting, photography, printmaking. Hey, and then they ended up closing that program. My junior year, so my junior year I had to choose and because I had so much like painting and drawing, I just decided to go technical so I majored in photography with a focus in painting and drawing and then a minor in art therapy. So I have a BFA in photo and art therapy. It sounds, feels like you've done everything when it comes to art. You've dabbled in every area or can probably speak to each aspect of it. How has that, the unification of all of those experiences and the different levels of knowledge you have in the different areas, how has that affected you as an artist? Well, I mean, it's been 30 years in the making where I'm at now, ah but I was very fortunate. But I also worked hard, and that's what I want to tell, like, I tell my own kids, like, if a teacher said, hey, I have a job for you, you want it? I'm like, yep. And so, like, in Philly, I was already shooting, photographing covers for magazines and newspapers at 20. Because I'm willing to take the lower jobs. um So I don't mind hustling. So after hustling through a ton of mediums of, and I danced actually there too, because they had a huge dance program. So some of my friends were dancers, and I would get one to the dance classes until I got in trouble. They thought I was a dance major. So they pulled me out. They're like, wait, you're not a dance major? I'm like, nope. Nope. And they're like, you gotta leave. Don't I look like one? I just kind of slid in because I had no money. You know, had pizza, a slice of pizza, the soda a day. So yeah, so I think creativity is creativity. I am very action oriented in my work. So like it comes from a place of movement, but I also cannot create in a negative space. Like there's artists who can create. shadow work. really struggle with that. I can only really create in a light, like loving sense. uh Yeah. where you are at depends on if you can create. Emotionally, definitely Yeah, I love creating when. The reciprocation of the medium is in a light, is in a joyous space. Mm OK, that makes sense. That's Jamie was. Yeah, we had we had a guest on, but she did go into and did shadow work at one point, she said. Well, she would write if it was anything that wasn't positive, she would just write. That was the medium. But it was also to kind of clear clear, get it out of her, get it out of her head. And then she would paint watercolor painting, sunset birds, dogs, that kind of thing. But there are so many artists that thrive in the dark. Yeah. and I love that too. I mean, you need artists like that. You need artists, and you need both. You need the light and the dark. You can't see the light unless you see the dark, and you don't know that there's light unless you're out of the dark. It's not good or bad to me. It really is just who you are as an artist, and then just being authentic and understanding where that comes from inside you. And I can say changes through the years too, like musicians or anything, like some years, like some pieces I've created from, I don't want to say dark spaces, but more like desolate. um And that's kind of where some of my work is right now and some of it is like more light, spiritual based. Yeah, for the record and viewers, those are paintings you've painted. Coco's done those. If you're watching on YouTube, can see. I would watch on YouTube and I'd go check out these paintings. They're very cool. OK, so you graduate. Where do you go next? So, kind of fate had its own space. So, I was up for photography position at the Philadelphia Inquirer because I was working there as a cover photographer and they gave it to another person. So, I said if I didn't get it, I'm going to New York. So, I ended up in New York. Back to New York. Back to Chelsea. Before you left Philly, we were there a few years ago and uh I felt like I could spend a week there just walking around. I'm into photography and I just taking pictures. I think it's a library or something at the top of the Rocky Hill. You've got Rocky at the museum. that building alone is insane. And then the view from there is cool, but the history, did you ever do that then when you were there, like in school, just to go out and creatively take pictures of the architecture there, the landscape, the neighborhood? this those were assignments freshman year. So yeah, I mean like you have this beautiful city and New York was the same way you go to art school that there's nothing inside your classroom other than if it's figure drawing that they want you there. It's like your class time is go to the park and draw pigeons. Go to the museum and draw the sets. Go, you know, go along Museum Drive and go photograph line and architecture so Philly's great for that. I go to school there every now and then at Moore College of Art now. They have like post grad classes. They're awesome. I love them. Yeah my best friend still lives there. Hi Elle. We met on a photo set my senior year. I was working for a photographer in North Philly and she was hair and makeup and I was the photo assistant and I was going to Europe. for the summer ah and my mom didn't want me to go alone. So I just kind of went on set and I was like, hey, anyone want to go to Europe with me for like a month? And then she was like, I'll go. So we ended up becoming best friends. And she still lives there in Fairmount right near the museum. I stay there all the time actually. I'm a cat sitter. That is awesome. So when you went to Europe, that that's when you were in school? I graduated, so that was like my graduation present. Okay. That's cool. A month in Europe. Yeah, so I had to obviously pay for like my, my mom paid for the airfare and then I paid for the rest. So we went backpacking. Yep. For a month. Two girls in a backpack. That's well, good thing that you knew how to defend yourself from your dad threatening to chase you around the house all those years. You probably felt ready. I look back and I'm like, well, you got two daughters. What are you going to do? Nowadays, that'd be called trauma. The doctor! wouldn't surprise us or anything. He'd just be like, all right, how do you get out of this? I can't breathe. uh have five seconds. Yeah. so you go back to New York. uh I'm assuming for a job after graduating. Yep, so I stayed in Sparta for a while, but then I moved into New York, back to New York. I was just doing photo assisting. You know, I was working in the fashion industry, working for photographers. Yeah. And how long did you do that? Couple years um and then I ended up dating my now husband and getting married um on the school bus. so you guys went to school together. OK, so were you were friends? Mm-hmm. And then, but I assume not. moved here and I was on the bus and he heard me say something sassy and he was like, that's the girl for me. Did you guys start dating in school? OK, well. And you were busy. So wait, you're this high achieving all over the place, doing all the things and holding down a job. And he's you think maybe making it to class. I think he had gym seven out of the eight periods a day. I didn't really monitor him. We were just friends. In high school when you just have those friends you go out with a little bit. Yeah, that was that. We just kind of went out. We would go, my dad, this is crazy, my dad would actually give him, his car was so bad, my dad would give him his new car and we'd drive into the village. I was 16 years old. He was 17 or 18 and he'd drive us, me and my sister, Chris McCluskey, Steve Leach, all these guys. We'd be packed in by Dad's Caprice going to the village to party and then drive home. Yeah. Now, did your parents know you were going to? Well, they did, because they told you. I think your parents knew. Yeah, they knew his parents didn't. He snuck into the most of my trip. Yeah, we used to sneak in all the time. Yeah. Yeah. It was not allowed. Well, I don't know if it was allowed. We we got caught once and it wasn't a big deal, but that could be the Gen X thing. It's like that could be that could be. You shouldn't do that. OK, when you go in. By fireworks? we'd go down into like, love the village. I used to hang out in Washington Square Park, play hacky sack and just, you know, hang around, go to Bleecker Street, Bleecker Bob's, the psychedelic solution was the head shop around there. so we that was our thing. Go get pizza. weed. Yeah. Yeah, they're coming in. You go store weed in Washington Square Park. Yeah, that was the thing. Okay, so you. we never snuck around because my dad, mean, maybe they were just avant in their parenting, but he like did not want us like in a car that didn't work. He was like, girls, no on the side of the road, you know, bring the guys, like he was no joke, bring the guys home, like bring them to the house. Like, I don't want you, he wanted us always in like a safe space. Now he sounds like he was ahead of his time. He was very ahead. My father is always ahead. Yeah, because that's very open communication. I want to know what you're doing. You can be your authentic self around me and tell me what you're doing. So I want you safe. yeah, hey, if you were in high school and you were cool with my six foot three dad, Vietnam veteran dude, power to you. I tell you. Okay, so you and you and Jeff knew each other in school hung out were friends, but you go off to college Do you guys stay in contact? yeah, he was in the military. He's a fly boy. okay, so he went into the Air Force. was cute in camo. Yep. So he graduates, goes into the Air Force, and this is back. 92.89. Like, were you writing letters? Was it landline? Totally. Yeah, it wasn't even right. Yeah. OK. I saved everything. I'm a saver. I'm an artist, so I save a bunch of stuff unnecessarily. I saved some letters. Yeah, he was we didn't date, though. We didn't date at all. We were just friends. He'd visit in Philly. um We'd go out if he was home on leave, you know, it wasn't really until after Europe I graduated and he was home. that we really started dating. So, yeah. long, it was a long slow burn. The slow burn that went on and on on. Okay, so you guys start dating, ah you're in the city working, is he in Sparta? Okay, so then you decide, you guys get married and then do you move back to Sparta? Well, we moved to Jersey City because I was still working in the city and he didn't want to come back and forth from the Lincoln Tunnel and I think his car got towed a few times. He'd go out to work and his car was towed so he was done and you know, you're young and in love. You're like, okay. Yeah. Well, Jersey, Jersey City now is not like Jersey City was then, I don't think. Well, we were in the Heights. So you know when you go through the tunnel, um those homes up on the hill there, that's where we were. We were in the Heights on Ogden Avenue. So we had a beautiful like one bedroom apartment that had a parking spot on Ogden Avenue right near Palisades. I was also volunteering working at the Boys and Girls Club in Hoboken. So. I was kind of between Hoboken and New York City and he was working out in Sparta. So we just kind of made it work. And how long did you guys do that? then you made the push to go to Sparta and and settle. Well, yeah, it was more or less, um, we eloped in Vegas when I got pregnant and we just decided to make it work that way. And because of his job really was more or less you had to, I don't know if it's still this way, but for you, he was becoming a police officer. You had to live where you wanted to be an officer at the time. So. He had to, we had to move back if he wanted to get that job. So, loping in Vegas, was anyone there? Or was it Trudy? Okay, so, was it immediate family? Or like, how many people? we got engaged. He proposed under the Brooklyn Bridge. We got engaged, I'm trying to think, July, June, July. And then I got pregnant during my engagement. um And it's nothing that my kids know. I don't feel ashamed about it. We were a couple. We were it. And we were just like, let's go do it. We were supposed to get married at West Point, actually. wow. That's where his father's buried um but actually my due date and like our wedding date was at the same time and So we just said, you know, he's like what about Vegas I'm like, okay, like we're kind of wild in that way. We just kind of always done our own thing. So We said we're going to Vegas. We're gonna get married and my mom and dad came His mom came, my sister, my brother, and my best friend Elle came. So yeah, we invited people. If you wanted to come, you could come. It wasn't like, hey, we got married. Right, right, right. Where did you guys get married in Vegas? You did? We got married in Vegas. Yeah. It was the same deal, too. It's like everybody can come, but you got to go to Vegas. ended up. We do, you know, the Golden Nugget Hotel. So they shut down the pool area and we got married in the center there. We had 65 people. But if we would have had it in Jersey or Michigan, where my dad's side of the family is from, or Oregon, it would have been really big. And we didn't want that. So what the closest to elopement is we were going to get like everyone was pretty much invited. But you had to come to Vegas. But it was awesome. mean, people still say it was the best wedding they've been to because it's a party. It's a party. Now. We really were so broke. We were so young. And we were like, let's just do this thing. And then my mom and dad, the money that they were gonna spend to help me at West Point, they're like, well, they were so sweet. They're like, do you guys want the money or do you want us to come to Vegas? Because we can't do both. And I'm like, my gosh, come to Vegas. Yeah. That's somebody. Yeah. Did you guys do like a weekend stay for a week? Yeah. day. We stayed at the MGM at the time. I still had a dress made like in Hoboken. I still wore a white dress. Jeff wore a kilt. I asked him to wear a kilt. Nice. No, I have no regrets. have none. loved our wedding in Vegas and I would do that all over again. And I had a dress. My bridesmaids were in tie dye. Oh my gosh, of course they were. Of course they were. I love that so much. I think most of them kept the dresses and used them as like swimsuit cover-ups. It's probably the only bridesmaids dress you could ever reuse again over and over and over. ah like everyone just wear black like whatever you know and Because I'm Scottish I asked Jeff if he would wear a kilt so we got a kilt rented from Carney when we were like living in Hoboken or Jersey City and It was fun though the wedding we have I say we're one of the few people with strangers in our wedding photos That's really cool. I think it's always a good sign when and I don't know if this makes sense, but when you care about getting married to the person more than the wedding, like all that mattered to me was marrying Brian. And so I didn't like, you know, we like I kind of had a say in some of the things like what wine we're going to. But I didn't really care. It was more just like, don't I don't care. I don't care what the flowers look like. Yeah, those are pretty. That's fine. It was just more this, getting married, was it? The main decision was the musician who was a brother of a friend. Yeah, yeah. And this guy, I think he played either piano or harp or something. He's a famous classical musician now. He was just starting out. You probably know who he is and I got to look up his. Eric something I Eric Whitaker. Yeah. Yeah, he's like a kind of, he has a following. At the time though, he was this young guy, ponytail, he was in ponytail, played piano. That was the only thing we cared about was the music. And only because he was via a connection, friend. We wanted to make sure he was caring. Other than that, it was about marrying Brian. You knew what she wanted. think, I mean, I'm not really like, I love the frills and I can play both sides, but at the same time I'm all over an experience and that's like, I mean, it's hard to like try to tell people, but like I never felt like without or I didn't have, like I always felt like even for the little that we had, the one bedroom, tiny little apartment with no door, by the way, we had just an opening, like we had a futon, we had furniture from Salvation Army, we had one car. Yeah. It wasn't like we felt any less, if that made sense. You just summed up our life in Portland after we got married. We lived in a place that's not even much bigger than our studio here. we Nathan home to it. We brought Nathan home to that. I mean, the kitchen was smaller than a guest bathroom. And I'm not exaggerating. It was didn't even have a full sized stove in it. But to your point, I was so happy. Like I you couldn't. I knew we were working towards something, but it didn't. I was just so it was just. our little family. So I feel very blessed when I look back on that, that um I found my partner so early. And because I mean, there's no question he's my soulmate. But I feel like we got married at 23. I know you got married young, too. I feel fortunate that that happened to me. You know, I don't feel like I missed out on something. um But even when we got married, it was unusual to get married so young. That wasn't the norm. yeah, that wasn't going over well with my friends. That didn't go well. Plus also I was like really having a baby at the same time. And back then like that was like, I'm in New York, I'm a working woman. Like who was having babies at 23, 24? I'm like in the showroom of Nike, Cole Haan with all these famous models and these women, powerhouse women, like motherhood literally was not honored in that. space and you were told, I mean I can tell you, remember being pregnant in jobs and being told if I knew you were pregnant I would have never hired you. And so many times after that having Roy, having been in that space, I had to hide I was a mother. I had to hide I was a young mother. I couldn't tell anybody I was married or I was a mother. They did. an industry thing or a New York thing? I honestly don't know, it was just my experience thing in New York when I was working in New York at that time. oh Well, yeah, because you were on this path, very cosmopolitan, professional, arts, all of that, that very Sex in the City vibe. If someone was from the outside looking in, you were that girl. And then you probably threw everyone for a loop, getting married and starting a family. I'm sure that was just like, you know. Right. all that to come out and choose that, but at the same time, there wasn't a space for motherhood in that area. And also too, we needed an income and someone has to watch the child. It was just, and Roy was an incredible addition to our family. wasn't anything I felt like I was giving up. Mm-hmm. It just was what it was. wasn't like today where like, you know, motherhood is part of being a working woman. you know, so like what I say to my own daughter today is like, stand on my shoulders, stand on my shoulders, because, um you know, and the women before me paved the way where we're at now and moving forward. And there's always a pendulum and there's I think everybody's their own person and whatever's come, you know, we have the choice now to work part time or work online or, you know, there's different ways to do it. um But anyway, so, but yeah, Vegas, back to Vegas. We brought the kids back to Vegas to renew our vows like years later. And we did this whole like wedding thing there. It was really quite fun, but yeah, I'm. Yeah. year did you guys get married? Same. What month? February, wait, did I do 94? 96, sorry. my gosh, I can't think back to 96. okay, we're September 94. Yes, because it's our 30th coming up. So you guys had your, you're on your 30. Yay. Congratulations guys. you. Thank you. I'm and I know you can relate to em how proud I feel. And I'm sure you do, too, to have a marriage that's lasted that long because there are so many ups and downs and there are so many trials and tribulations and there's so much joy and so much awesomeness. But it's a wild ride and it's not easy and it takes work. But it's incredibly rewarding. And I personally feel now that we're at this space, all of the downs were so worth it. Like now that we're here, so, I love that we're here. Like we made it. Does that make sense? Yeah, I don't know like Jeff retired and then so he's often is he's almost in like a whole developing a whole new thing for himself and then I'm reigniting all the arts in myself so we're it's like bizarre we're like we just said this like you know we're just like it's like before we had kids in a way if that makes sense Yeah, you're hell of a lot more wisdom and self understanding probably. exhausted though sometimes I want my cat. I'm done at 930 whatever wisdom we're For sure. We try to eat like we love to eat at like five. Yes, we're at that. Yep. Yeah, we're we're I get it now. I totally get it. But no, like you guys again, I think so many Gen Xers are doing this where they're hitting this part of their life and they're doing things that they always wanted to do or things they put off. They're doing them. So it's such a I feel like we're thriving in a lot of ways and really embracing this second part of our life in a way no other generation before us has, you know. like my mom just retired last year, like 75 years old. I mean, my mom still is going at it, but she's a musician and an artist. And I think like even today, if you look at the music world, like art in itself is... never ends, I mean, I can't imagine what does that even mean, retire, right? So we just keep getting better with age, like Grandma Moses, famous artist, she was in her 80s, you know? um But I just feel also too, like people our age, like we are still, like I'm not dead, like I don't wanna sit and do nothing, and there's, yeah. And like I want my own children to see that, right? Like you want them to see like, there's, mean, I find the falsity of the 80s sometimes like, remember like you could have it all, remember that? And that's so like, not real. there was a commercial. Bring home the bacon. Yeah. just like what that mindset like and the power of like being Wonder Woman and like I love Linda Carter so power to her because that's who we grew up with but like I don't want it all at the same time and you can't that's ridiculous. uh But there are stages to your life and just learn to embrace that I hopefully with grace and some sense of learnedness I don't know. No, you nailed it. Yes. being able to be home with families and I feel that has been part of its positive aspect. Definitely, but you nailed it. grew up, young Gen X girls grew up thinking, oh, we can do it all, we should do it all, we should do it all well. And there's an insane amount of pressure. And as a result, we grinded, we a lot of times put our own physical health on the back burner to keep doing the things and keep living up to those expectations. Because so many of us are productive. based for praise. You know, we're used to that. Do a good job. Do a good job. Be a good girl. Do a good job. Do a good job. So again, to your point, this is our time and do it smiling and do it in heels and red lipstick and look good and don't and you know, be thin, be pretty. and like wear makeup and All the things. so I do. God forbid your house isn't clean and your children need to be perfect and your husband needs to be happy, you know, make sure his needs are met. Everyone's eating really healthy meals. You make every all the crap. Right. So all the things I think it's a beautiful thing that we've gotten to this point in our life. And I think speaking of being an example for young women. stand on our shoulders and know you don't have to do any of that all at once like you just said, do it how it works for you and make that a priority um because we're just now learning how to do that in a lot of ways, I think. We're giving ourselves permission. I mean, I feel, mean, you have a daughter, I have a daughter, she's been a wonderful mirror, even saying things to me like, no, mom, you don't have to do that, or moms, talk better about yourself. Mom, you know, and she kind of mirrors in spaces that I think are important to see that, oh, yeah, I don't. Why am I saying that? ah hold Gen Z women, blow my mind, ah but they hold us Gen X women accountable in certain situations that are as beautiful. Yeah, and even like being a teacher to the generations, different generations, but like so many things I've heard from students and it kind of breaks my heart because I really enjoyed being 50. Like I have loved my age. I literally love being 53. When I hit 50, I wasn't sure, but literally it's been glorious. It's been a glorious elevation of my own soul. And some of my students have said Mrs. Mays like, Our moms don't even say that. And it kind of breaks my heart. What are we doing to our girls and our sons hear us also? um Embrace your light, whatever it might be. We forget to do that. And I don't know if it's because it's where that comes from. I haven't looked into it too deep, but I do, I'm a big female supporter of supporting other women. Absolutely. has been a beautiful mirror in that space sometimes. Yeah, no, it's awesome. I I cherish my relationship with my daughter and I worked really hard to make sure she knew so many things I didn't know as I was leaving home. But then she, as in her 20s, has reciprocated in teaching me things. Now I feel in the last few years I can even be open enough to hearing because up until then I was just going at full speed. Again, I'll be with that in a minute. I got to get this thing done. And I finally stopped and it's like, no, you need to focus on you. You're entitled to that. Like you have to honor yourself. So and our daughters are a beautiful. They validate us in those situations, I think. And it's a beautiful thing for sure. OK, so now you're you're back in Sparta and you're a mother. How how was that? Part of your life after spending. all this time as an artist and then now you're now you're a mother which is life changing completely. How was that for you? That did not go well. That's a big transition. for two years. It was very hard for me to be out here. It felt very restricting. like I said, weren't like the moms at the playground definitely weren't my age. They thought I was the babysitter. It was very hard. was terribly depressing. I thought I failed myself. Unfortunately, but I would bring my son into the city and we'd go walk around and see my friends. So I was able to express myself. I still was working in photography at that time. I started painting for theaters, like children's theaters out here. then I met a few friends. literally like, I'll never forget it, Sparta Library. I was like, Lord. Please send me someone who loves New York City as much as I do and they have a kid. And sent me my best friend Nancy and to this day we are best friends. We had two little kids like Roy and Catherine. They were 18 months old and mommy's in me and she's a pianist in Manhattan. uh Works in Manhattan College of Music and I found my people. I found another woman out here, Karen. uh who also loves the city. And we kind of founded a little group of us. um raised, basically it was a bunch of women and we had kids and we like travel kind of like the peanuts. And we'd go to New York and everybody had their scooters and went to the zoos and you know. I found some really, very close friends at that time that I needed support with. My husband at the time was on night shifts and day shifts, so there was, it was a very intense time, our 20s, with work and family and working and. Yeah, you probably felt a lot. know I can speak as Brian would be gone. I would say I was a single mom through the week. You know, it can be a very lonely, isolating time. and then two more kids on top of it. So you've got three kids and I had help. had my mom, I had my husband's family, but um I mean, sometimes not my family, but you know, you'd hear family members say like, your hobby, your art hobby. And it just has always bothered me because it's like, no, it's not a hobby for me. It was a way of it's a way of my cells living and breathing and uh So leaving that beautiful kinetic juice of Manhattan coming out here, I struggled for a long time. Probably, I mean, more so maybe even a decade. Two years I cried and then I found some friends and then I kind of got some things going. I mean, I'm impressed that you continue to even do photography still, even when you first came out, you still were holding on to it. You weren't letting it go completely. Even in your desolation in those moments, you were still trying to find an outlet to hold on to that part of yourself. yeah, mean like I guess honestly I don't know how to not do that but I was having a show now that I think back like I had a one woman show at Montclair I was still shooting fashion in the city I was still with like some magazines but back then photography was not digital right so I had You had to go back and forth and I'd have the baby seat and then I'd go to these meetings and I had to, like I told you, I had to pretend I didn't have a kid. didn't have, I couldn't tell them I was married. It was just this whole kind of like separate life. And at some point I was like, I can't do this anymore. You know, you're, driving to Manhattan and the hours of that takes to be an artist is similar as I always tell people, like a doctor. lawyer anything of any elk you got to sit and do it so you got to travel so it just kind of fizzled out of exhaustion Would you develop your own film? Or would you get it? Yep. room, but um just because of the silver, like it's not, it's toxic if you don't do it in the right way. So I was always very like EPA sensitive and there were actually some like um photo houses over near one was near um County College of Morris. There was, because I was working film, I was a photographer for movies at that time. So. Some of the movies were in New Jersey. I could go over there. There was also like a camera place down near Whippany. But slowly these places closed because of the onset of digital. And then I was in the thralls of motherhood with three kids and a spouse. do this double life where you were trying to still? oh So the first five years after you moved to Sparta, you still had a foot in both worlds. It's a grind. It's such a grind. It was a lot. It was a lot. Manhattan from Sparta, it's close, but obviously, you know, it's a pain in the ass. You have a thing called a river, and you have to deal with that river one of only a few ways. A lot of cars. but that's where the jobs are. You know, like where we say you got to go where the market is. And I really, started photographing out here, just portraits and family portraits. And it just wasn't my cup of tea. just didn't like it. I'd rather an art director yell at me about a fashion shoot than like a mom not liking her collar. Like, and back then we didn't have Photoshop, mind you. So you only had film. So your technical ability had to be on point. I just, you know, it just wasn't my cup of tea, you know, I. after you stopped those first five years, you stopped taking the jobs. Is that when you attempted to maybe do some family shoots locally or were you also doing that simultaneously those first five years? that too. I was just trying to figure out where I fit in. I actually was cleaning homes. I was cleaning homes. I'd babysit. I would do anything. I worked at a gym just to bring in some cash. um I painted murals. So I would paint murals for some people. I just did whatever I could do creative-wise. So how long were you hustling like this in total? decades, until probably in my 30s I decided to go back to performing. So you're hustling um really the whole time you're raising three kids. In some ways, yep. And ah what was the catalyst that made you decide, I want to go back to performing. Um, well it was really after the death of my brother. I was like doing a lot of like mural painting at that time and he was my assistant. So did you stay close, I know you said you were close with your sister through all this, through going to school in Manhattan, going to school in Philly, getting married and all that, were you close with your brother and sister during all this time? yeah, mean my sister and I have always been close. My brother, I mean he was 12 years younger than me, so like at my wedding he was 12 and he was the best man. Yeah, but like, you know, like a typical 17 year old, like does he want to hang out with his, you know, 30 year old sister? No. But we'd hang out, we'd cuddle, you know, like not cuddle, I don't want say that's weird, but like we'd all like hug as family or sit on the couch together still. um But he was doing his own thing. He had a car accident, drinking and driving, and passed away. How old was he? 21. Okay, was he going to school? He was not going to school at that time. had just He went to Seton Hall for baseball for a little while and then Yeah, he was a walk-on. He played um American Legion Okay, so did he play for Sparta? Yeah. Picture. Okay, that's like Brian. So, and did he do, what was it, the Babe Ruth? No, that's what the American Legion is. That's the American Legion League. okay. Is that like travel? Regionally. I guess so, I don't know. I honestly, like because he was in high school, so like there was, like I'm raising my own family and then my mom was raising Dan, you know, so she's, so I mean, we kind of had like polar schedules sometimes, uh but trying to think Sophie. Sophie was like two. uh to Seton Hall, Seton? Seton Hall. Seton Hall. And was a walk-on baseball player? That's cool. We actually went there for a swim meet. It's down in one of the oranges. Okay. I remember that. I remember. I remember sneaking in to see the basketball court. Basketball court was cool. So did your brother go to Seton Hall like three years, like he was 21 when he passed? Had he been going to Seton Hall the whole time? No, I think he went a couple years and then decided it wasn't for him and he ended up moving to California. ah My sister is living out there at that time and she still is. yeah, um he lived with her for a while. I think he was gonna try to work in the industry, the film industry, and I don't know, that didn't really work out for him. It wasn't something. that was working and then came back to Jersey. uh he, was he living with your folks at the time? with his folks and... Was he working? Yep, he was working for some kind of promoter. You know, there's like promoters that are like at the liquor store or like, think Skoll, is that a nicotine? Something like that. And he would promote at clubs. Okay, yeah, our older son did that in college. I think that a lot of kids in college will do that. They'll do stuff for promoters. yeah. And then I think he came back in January and then April 1st is when he had his accident and passed away. So it wasn't too far along after he came home. Was it just he was out with friends? Just one of those things? I think it was a really long week. It was just he had had some incidents with some alcohol and I think it was not going well. Um, and then the week before he passed away, his actual girlfriend was killed. Yeah, her, her mom and her sister. Wow. How? Um, so they were in Florida or his high school girlfriend. So, um, I don't know the whole story at this time. I don't know if they were, they recently got back together. Um, she went to Florida to visit her sister. It like, it's on some like travel basketball thing and someone called nine one one saying like my boyfriend or husband's gonna. hurt someone, said he was going to crash his car into someone and ended up crashing into their car and killed all three women. my goodness. uh and so that was the week before he passed away. And then, yeah. Do you think that triggered him into drinking? I think it didn't help. I don't know how that would help to be quite fair. I know that he had gotten into counseling. I know that everybody was obviously very worried about him and he had been exiting some aggressive behavior at that time. And then him and a friend went out one night and came back. stayed at the friend's house and then they got up early one morning and both of them were in the car and then his friend was sitting in the passenger seat and he passed away instantly and my brother lived for like five days. So, but they, my brother's um blood alcohol content was very high beyond the legal limit, so. So was he just a normal like kid in his 20s or college years partier or did he, was he an alcoholic, would you say? don't know what was going on with him at that point. Again, like not to say that I was separated, but I didn't live at home anymore. Um, and he had just recently come home. I was taking care of three kids. We lived in Hampton. We lived in a town over. I was just so busy mothering, being a wife, working. I saw him sporadically at that point, you know, maybe once a week at that. If that, you know, he was. 21 like he's not hanging with his 32 year old sister and her three kids uh I mean I'd see him if you know in the winter we would go sleigh riding, but it wasn't like I didn't really know Personally what was going on back then? um I do remember like I was Painting a mural my mom called me to tell me what happened to his friends And I texted him back then with the cell phones. I called him. He didn't answer me. A couple weeks before that, we had gone to lunch. So I treated him to like a cafe lunch, know, just normal brother, sister stuff. We walked to town. um And then it was just so strange. It was like. Easter Sunday his accident happened and it was just a long arduous day, just exhausting. Wouldn't wish it upon anyone. So was he did he ever regain consciousness in the hospital? OK. No. How would you say so it's every family's worst nightmare what you went through and you were also dealing with your own situation. You you're trying you're in survival mode and your whole life, you know, get doing all those things. You you've been trying to balance holding on to your art and mothering and, you know, your husband's working a lot. So you have a very full chaotic time going on as a lot of us young mothers did back then. and your sister's in California, and this nightmare happens. So I assume it's like a grenade in a family. Or did it bring you guys, like how did it, did it explode or did it bring you guys all together? I want to say all the above. And I can only assume everyone would go through it differently. It was just like. I, it sounds absolutely gruesome and it was, but it was like, somebody had given me a book about 9-11 and photographs from that time. And there were photographs of people jumping off the building. And honestly, I could, once I saw that, I could never open the book again. I just really struggle with that type of photography sometimes. em Like people's last moments. And it just felt like we were jumping off a burning building. Like I just, you just don't even know what you're doing at that point. It's just, that's really how it is. And unfortunately it happened on Easter. So it changed the dynamics of a holiday. It happened in the most horrific way. Not only did he kill himself, he killed someone else. So there's a lot of dynamics. You say if he would have lived, probably would have gone maybe to jail. I wouldn't wish any of that on anybody. It was a lesson in. all the above, you know. It was a strange day. was like Easter Sunday and my kids were sick as a dog and I was supposed to have dinner the next day. So Saturday, the table set, we dyed eggs. The kids were sick as a dog. I think a couple of them were throwing up. My husband's on night shifts. I was up all night. Finally, they go to bed. The Easter bunny delivers. I get in bed. Jeff comes home. He gets in bed. I get up. It's like five or six. I hear a helicopter above my house and I live right near the heliport. So anytime you hear a helicopter, you know there's been a bad accident because they pick up the person right near, right at the heliport. And I just, literally said to myself like, my gosh. Sunday morning, Easter Sunday morning, somebody's getting heliported out. It was like six in the morning. It was like, what could have been going on? So I, no joke, I kneeled down and I prayed and I said, Lord, please help that family. This is Easter Sunday, how horrible. And then I get a phone call that that was my brother. And then I just remember throwing the covers off my husband like get up and we had to go to the hospital. um Morristown at that time. And then, you know, it was just. It was just chaos at that point. But... My dad. so, and your husband was a police officer at that time, right? Um, but it hadn't reached him yet. Cause I, okay. And so it happened like it's like between shifts. Yeah. So two nurses were able to in to bait him. I guess they saw the accident happen. Yeah. the scene? Wow. they were able to intubate him, but the car ended up slipping and landing on his friend. So that wasn't good. Was your brother thrown? Honestly, I don't really know. I think he was still in the car. uh That's amazing there were nurses that intubated him on the scene. I don't know. I know. so. How does a family move forward when they're missing a piece of their family? Is it just hour by hour? It's minute by minute. think it's different for everybody, but honestly, I was dealing with it on so many levels of a sister. Mother, a wife, a daughter. I mean, I'm the eldest, so I'm like trying to work with my parents, deal with the doctors, you know, hold my parents up. My sister wasn't even out yet. I'm dealing with my kids because I got to deal with, you know, you have three little kids. You know, it just was a lot. then, you know, of course, like you as like you come last in dealing with the emotions of the immediacy of immediacy takes over. Like your body just functions like whatever that might be. And as gruesome as it it sounds it's like, all right, bathroom. Okay. Shower. Okay. Get, get mom in clothes. Like you're just, it's. It's just literal immediacy. That's pretty much all it is at that point. There's zero thinking about surviving. You just are surviving. I don't know, at the most raw space in yourself. um But. How long did that go on where you were in it? a year, you know the whole first years just lots of crying lots of anxiety You know, sometimes you look at the clock and you're just waiting for that time when we had to take them off life support Like that's what you think and then you're like is this really happening and then you have people tell you well, I've seen people walk out of accidents. I couldn't tell you how many people said that to my face I know somebody who had a bad accident like that and walked right out of it. Well You know, now I'm angry at God. Yeah. Now I'm angry. I don't understand the point of telling you that either. Well, people get kind of weird, don't they? They want to make it OK. And anything is said. Yeah. then there's some family members who are like, don't cry so much. And then there's some family members, like it just was different, but like, um I always said this, like Nicole, you know this, like you were an integral part of my healing and I actually have a sculpture in my garden. There was one day you, I brought, you said, bring the kids over and I brought the kids over to you and you're like, just go do what you need to do to mourn. And I went to the garden store. And I got a sculpture of like a beautiful female and she's just like holding herself and it's still in my garden today. I look at it every day and I think of you. And you actually said something to me back then that really no one ever said is just like. Do what you need to do to survive, but just to actually mourn and feel the feels, to sum it up. And I just took that and went with it. It was just exactly what I needed to hear at that time. Because again, like I'm carrying the weight of a lot of jobs at that time, a lot of roles. And I just didn't make time for myself. you you. oh must have seen something in me to be able to say like drop the kids and go and that was probably one of the best gifts you've ever given me. Wow. Thank you for sharing that with me. I didn't know that. I'm so grateful that I did something right in that moment for you, you know, because I know you were getting energy from every angle and carrying the weight of the world. I'm so it brings me so much comfort to know that in that moment I was able to offer you something you needed. Yeah, you did. You really did. You're very loving and open. You know, I think in those times, loss is loss in everyone. What I experienced is my parents suffering in their own ways. You know, uh one was more loud about it. One was quiet, then one became loud, then one was quiet, you know. Sometimes people wanted to see pictures, sometimes they didn't. It just was like this up and down roller coaster. uh And I just, you know, through whenever I meet him again, whenever I see him, I wasn't very happy about that choice. I did come to terms, I had to go to a lot of counseling about it, but I did come to terms in the sense of I felt he made the right choice to pass on with his friend. I don't know if he would have been able to handle that, you know, at all. yeah Right. Yeah I think sometimes my father's, we went to his friend's funeral, because we did go, um he said something, he's like, there's grace in death. And I feel like I never understood that until that moment. Yeah, there's grace in death and I feel like that was the right choice for my brother at that time. I would imagine um the grief journey that you've been on and that your family's been on, like you said, is fluid and changes and takes different shapes. Has it landed in a place um of consistency at this point, or does it still take you by surprise? There are times where I can feel him that brings tears to my eyes because he was just such a love and a joy and just such a beautiful, sensitive human. But there's been some moments, it's been crazy. As the last few years, uh my mom kept a bunch of his clothes, and I'm actually wearing his watch, but my sons, my kids are wearing his clothes right now. And they literally love it, especially the boys. the men, like they're like, look at Uncle Dan stuff, I'm wearing his pants, it's vintage. It's like, and it's kind of been wild. And there's points, my middle son, Jackson, he looks so much like my brother at times that I have to like kind of double take. And there's just been pieces of joy to see, like, cause he would have been, it's been 20 years, right? 2005. So, It's been a while, but I don't want to say time heals all things, but it definitely can um ease it a little bit. I think it smooths things a little. Maybe takes away some of the edges. know 20 years sounds like a long time and it is, but then it also isn't the only reason I say that speaking for myself, cause I lost my dad in a similar fashion and um and there's moments where it still feels like yesterday and then, and then the gift of time. Mm-hmm. that out. I have found time to be therapy for me. It's been no, no, and I don't mean to bring my experience into this, but the only reason I was asking about that, because I have he died in 2003 in a car accident. um And I feel like in the last five years or so is where I find consistency with the grief, where I kind of. It's settled in my soul. know it. I'm familiar with it. ah I live with it. It's not an unknown to me anymore. It doesn't catch me by surprise. It doesn't pull out the rug from under me. It doesn't knock me on my ass and it doesn't leave me, you know, in a puddle anymore. doesn't mean I don't have my moments. And when I do, I try to take it as a chance to recognize how far I've come with it. ah But And there are still moments where it catches, it does catch me, but there's so few and far between. um so the feels like yesterday still happens to me, but um not as often. so that's, and for your situation, your parents lost a child and as mothers, we understand that grief that they're going through and can't even imagine that. And then you lost a sibling, which is supposed to be who you're. you do this journey with because we all know we're going to lose our parents first. So that's now an empty hole, right? So I feel like, yes, losing a parent was brutal. But for your situation, I feel like it would even require a longer span of time to find a place where it can settle. Does that make sense? angry at a lot of things and a lot of dynamics that, you know, the pink elephant, you know, is out in the open. Some of the some of the dynamics. uh Are you talking about the alcohol? Yeah, and just like the family struggle with it, you know, on both sides of my mom and dad's families, you know. um And, you know, having to work through that. So I had to, you know... Do you ever read Tuesdays with Morrie? I haven't, but I've heard of it. So like, there's like a, they talk about like how death is for the living. You know, that, and just like experiencing like mementos mori in the same vein of like live today. And I've really, for the most part, I'm still human. I still get upset. You know, what are we fighting over? We could not have tomorrow. You know, I don't like going to bed without saying I love you. to people. uh I truly honestly don't have hate in my heart for anyone. There's just no reason for it. We're here in such a finite moment and I really treasure time. Yeah. I think an experience like that, it's interesting you say that I went through something similar where every day matters. every day, I remember when we moved to Florida and I knew we were only going to live in our first house for a year. um Brian's dad had actually just passed away and that was kind of sudden too. And that just reinforced that every day matters. um And I was decorating the kids' rooms like, we're going to be in this house for 40 years. was doing all the things. But I remember thinking if I hadn't had the experiences I'd had by losing my dad and then losing his dad, I would have been like, oh, yeah, I'll wait. I'll put up those pictures when we move in a year. But I was I I just am so aware that you don't have tomorrow guaranteed that you have to you have to put up the picture today. You have to enjoy it today because you may not have next year. But I think when you go through that experience is when you really understand that, you know, and it settles in you. And I don't think that ever leaves. Yeah, it's like I have life before my brother because again, I was 12 when he was born. So there was a whole life before that. And then I have life after my brother when he passed away. And my aunt was in the room with him when we said goodbye. And my aunt's son passed away when he was five. And my mom, you know, and her, and it was a very brutal moment. But I'll never forget, she said, you know, you had him to 21. I only had mine through five. And in comparison, that just seems like, I don't know, like that's what she had to say at that time. But I'll never forget what she said because, yeah, I had 21 years with him. 21 glorious, beautiful years. Look, it'll make me cry. He was beautiful. But, sorry. No, he should be spoken of. Yeah, of course. um But I just honestly, it shifted every part of who I was and you know. It became your new normal. Yeah, it's unfortunate. uh He would have loved to be a really cool uncle. ah I don't know. You can say a lot of things, but now I think of him in terms of when my grandma passed, I think of him coming to get her, and he was the first one there. You know, he was the first one to hold her hand and walk her towards heaven or afterlife, whatever you feel you believe in. And I feel them all the time. I think, do you feel your father? Like I feel sometimes I just feel them in slight moments or I can smell them. Yes. Absolutely. There's things that happen and I'll say I know that was you, dad. I just know like I hit every. With my dad. Yeah. Uh, yeah, you know, I saw it was a few years ago. I thought I saw him and I looked at this guy and I was like, my God. And I did a double take and then the guy was off away. Yeah. I'm still angry, but Brian's, I think, you know, the stages of grief, I think he's, he was in the denial stage for most of it. I, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. and I think. he's settled into the anger stage. So everyone grieves different. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's interesting. You remember. No, no, go ahead. I was gonna say that's the show that I'm entering my work in. That's the name of it. Everyone grieves different. Really? I just got chills. the hug photos, the hug drawings. Thank you for saying that. Wow. That's a sign. That's just fine. That's going to be something. Cool. Yeah. What were you going No, you remember Tony, Tony Pompilio. yeah, he was my gym partner. He sat behind me in math and we, well, sometimes I can't remember, did he sit in front of me or behind me? Because we used to talk and our teacher would switch us back and forth. And then one day he wasn't there. And... For our listeners, what happened to him. Sum up. He was murdered. I think that was my senior year. You were probably a junior, right? Yeah, it was my senior year of high school. uh at a mutual friends party and this kid from out of town was there dating a girl we went to high school with and they got in a fight and it's the middle of the night type of thing, two, three in the morning and he intervened to probably just questioning, hey, what's going on? Tried to break it up type of thing and they got stabbed multiple times and died right there. And this is our little town. This shit doesn't happen like that. Right. Right. it was pretty intense. Yeah, I remember waking up the next morning and hearing about it. And obviously that was crazy. And then I remember driving to school that morning. I remember John Bobchak. I I used to drive to school and the Grateful Dead China doll comes on and, you know, pistol shot, five o'clock, bells of heaven ring. Tell me what you've done it for. And it's about someone getting murdered. And so I'm still angry. I'm angry over death. And it's part of why I don't believe in God. It's cool you guys have faith, but I just don't. I have faith in other things. I have faith in humans, in the world, which is crazy because the world's crazy, but Earth and sun and the moon, but not a religious faith. makes no sense. What happened to your brother doesn't make any sense to me. No, it's good. you can rationalize it and the same with your dad. It makes no sense to me. The way my dad passed away makes no sense to me. Yeah, I don't want to make it about me though. No, no, I think it's good that you share. topic. I think death is an interesting topic, especially when you have diverse opinions. I don't think religion is for everybody. oh the silver lining, the cool thing is your kids are wearing his clothes, your mom saved his clothes, and you can see them in it. That's cool. That's amazing. been the really cool stuff. maybe with your dad, like Jackson just went to a wedding and he wore one of my dad's And like they're really into thrifting. I don't know if your kids are, but my kids love like historical pieces. And maybe just cause I've always loved historical pieces. Um, but they're really into wearing my brother's things. And I think they're connecting to him. I think because they're also in their twenties, well, this is 29, but he remembers his uncle. He was very close. They were literally the same age apart than my brother and I were. So we were 12 years apart and then Dan and Roy were 12 years apart. So he also lost like almost a sibling. And so and then the other one, they were a little smaller, but I mean, younger, but it just was, yeah, they're they're wearing his stuff and they love it and. um and he would love it. would absolutely love it. And it just kind of connects. It's like full circle and my parents love seeing them in his clothes. so, you know, death is a funny thing, right? that your parents are there where they can see his clothes, see your children in his clothes and be and find happiness in that. find that to be an absolute blessing for them that they can be at that place. I have strong faith. um So it's interesting, right? Like that we've been able to be together for so long. And so I always say it can be done. But I find I lean heavily on God um for pretty much everything, um but definitely to deal with my father's death. There's no question about it. My faith got me through, you now more than ever. think now more than ever. I think what you're describing and why I just love the clothing example is because I'm not, I don't know. I don't think we die per se. Like we do, we leave this physical place, right? And I believe we just go. get put into the earth and we decompose and we become the earth. But I also believe in the spirit doesn't die. And your kids wearing your brother's clothing is, supports my belief system, I guess, right? Because his spirit is still alive and they're out wearing his clothes and they're channeling it and other people can see them in those clothes and they're probably somewhat unique. They're vintage, right? So now they've touched someone else. So That's the essence, I think, of what I believe in in terms of an afterlife. And his spirit is living on. We're talking about him now. Your kids are wearing his clothes. People are, you know, so it's, I think that captures the essence of what I believe in when we pass. That makes sense. beautiful. Like I say, everybody mourns differently and I would never like dismiss anybody's sense of anger, feelings towards death. My oldest son, he does not believe in God and I sit and listen, I hear him and he was raised in the church. I raised my children in Protestant church and a Unitarian church. um you know, um but they're going to have their own opinions, you know. I think faith, because we're Catholic, I'm Catholic. Brian was raised Catholic, but he would say obviously he's not. ah And then we raised the kids Catholic. ah And what's funny is Dylan has an incredibly strong faith, our 15 year old, very strong, very strong. Kai has a very strong faith. Nathan is more like Brian. But the way I view faith is it's a gift we give our children and then they can do with it what they want. It's their gift. But I think it's important to give it so they have the choice. Yeah. never are given it, then they never can make that choice. It doesn't. If that makes sense. I totally believe that and like I know when like, you know, they might like swing in a comment, like I don't believe in God the way you do. go, that's okay. But I look at you as like beautiful nature, like the create, I'm a creator and I, the, you're the ultimate creation. Like I can draw, I can paint. Yeah, that's great. But I, look at what we just did. We made a life and that's like the ultimate, you know, goddess shit right there. I believe in goddess shit. Oh, 100%. 100%. again, I'm all over choice, I'm all over that, but it just is like, it's creative. It's a creative, maybe it's also being a woman, you know, having children, having birth three kids, and you are so very aware of time since you were little with the movement of how your body moves and everything, and then like, burning children, it's like. I don't know. It's a it's a that's a whole nother episode. can talk about that. Well, it's like a painting. You can kind of be like. I'm done and be like, hang it and be like, I'm done. This is it. And the kids that they're not perfect. Yeah, it's never done. It's never done. They're perfectly imperfect, really. So you. Absolutely. Yes. So you had said shortly after losing your brother. Mm-hmm. is when you started performing again, was his loss the inspiration behind that? It just was like he was my assistant. He'd carry a bunch of stuff for me and I just... I just couldn't. I couldn't do it. I just painted this massive mural in town here, massive, massive space. It was over in one of the housing developments. ah It was like in one of these really massive homes, ah like castle type. And I just kind of. stopped it all and went back to performing and maybe it was just I needed to like, what I've learned like last year, a couple years ago, I did like a workshop on the vagus nerve and like how singing actually humming helps. So I just think I needed like grounding, like physical grounding. So I went back to New York and I started performing and choreography then through my 30s. um Yeah, I just did all that and then. Did you read like how did you get back into that world? Did you still have connections that you tapped into? I just started auditioning, you know, auditioning for shows, training again and you know, yeah, but I am like in my 30s. So I'm like not like in my 20s, but you audition for things that you can do. And I was doing shows, I was working like, it's kind of like Disney ish out here. There's another theater that was out here. And so I don't know, it took me about five years. I auditioned for the Rockettes. I didn't get in. I knew I wouldn't, but I'm too short. Yeah, one experience though to even audition for the Rockettes. yeah, that was so great. The studios were beautiful. I mean, beautiful space. Radio City is awesome. I just did things that I wanted to try and do. Where did you perform? I'm just in local areas and theaters between here in New York and then the last theater I ended up in was a playhouse out here in New Jersey. They're kind of like a dinner theater. So it was like eight shows a week, dancing and singing. Yeah, cool. So you were doing that in your first. 37, 38. still raising. Well, they like so how old was your youngest then she was now when you were 38 though. yeah, so she was eight. Seven, eight. m kids and performing. That's a balancing act. still having to lie that I didn't have kids. Oh yeah. It hadn't evolved by that point even? Zero. What a trip. Has it evolved yet? Okay. Good. Thank God. Wait, so your kids never came to watch you? Not rehearsed like on those paid jobs Not on the pay jobs? Wow. my last show, I was 38 and I had to stay at the cast house and I'll never forget, I call my mom, she's watching the kids and I'm like, what are you guys doing? They're like, we're making cookies. And I'm like, I'm so over this. Like I was 38, I wanted to be making cookies with my kids in the snow. And I just said I was done. So how long have you done that? How long? Did you do that performing? How many years? Probably about six sears. a long time. Would you view that as a form of therapy? Yeah. And Jeff gave me a beautiful space to be able to do it. I still worked part time. I taught at a college. I taught at Centenary. I taught dance there. um I did some painting for them. I worked on their children's theater. So I just kind of kept my. myself going in those spaces. And one of my best friends works out at Centenary Lea. So she just kind of kept me going in that area. It was a lovely time. actually teaching I could bring my kids, but performing. um So the last show I was going to say, by the time I was on my second show with this house, this theater company, and I said I got it. One of my kids was not doing well in school. They were like failing some classes and they were lying to me about homework and I was just so done. So I'm like, you're coming to rehearsal with me today, all three of you. I had no sitter. I had no one to help me and I just didn't even know what to do. So I called one of the directors and I'm like, by the way, I have three kids and they got to come to rehearsal today. He's like, what? So I sat them up front and they remember this to this day. And I just looked at them. There were four girls and four guys in the show and it was a two hour show. I mean, it was rehearsal and I just looked at them and I'm like, you will sit there and you all will behave and you will do your homework in front of me. And the choreographer, I mean, she was old school so she wasn't happy with me at all. She was like, you know, bringing your kids to rehearsal. And I'm like, I didn't have a choice. m I don't know what else to tell you. But everyone else was like really shocked that I actually had three kids at that age, you know, so I'm 38 and I had an eight year old, a 10 year old and a 13 year old. So nobody did that back then. Nobody brought their kids to rehearsal like zero. I guess unless maybe you're famous and they're in the trailer, but I didn't have that luxury. So. And then that was my last show and they did ask me, they were a fabulous theater. They asked me to come back after that, but I just was like, I'm in the thralls of like, you know, preteen. yeah. yeah. So you're about to head into that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Roy's in it. I didn't want to be like that performing mom who my performance, my daughter was dancing pretty heavily and I was teaching for her. was raising her in the studio also at the same time. I didn't want to compete. I felt accomplished enough to say like, I can pause it or I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. So then what so then did you pivot to um so then you became a teacher. OK. So what did you teach? Alright. So I went back to for my New Jersey for my state certification and I went back and I got my certification to teach art. and what age. High school. So you started working at the high school. So that's more of like a traditional, not nine to five, but is that kind of the first time you've had five days a week, consistent hours really since mean outside of working in New York, like, cause those hours are different. Um, yeah, actually I worked at the middle school first. Um, and then I was in like the New Jersey state program to get my, my teacher and certification. Cause I already have my degree and then, um, you had to find a job to pay you in your area of expertise, but like it was the middle of summer and who's gonna pay me to be an art teacher in the summer? So in the fall they called me, because they knew I was a parent, hey, do you wanna be a teacher, a parent volunteer at the middle school because they had a huge layoff at that time. And there was one art teacher in between two classrooms. And I said, well, you know what? And I love, The superintendent back then was Dr. Monks. It was a woman and she, she's like, we can't pay you, but yes, we'll put you, keep you in that program. She's like, I said, what if you gave me a contract for $1? She goes, OK. So I worked for a dollar for like four months just to keep my program going. And I'll never forget I would come home crying because I wasn't making an income at all. And I'm saying to Jeff, I'm like, I don't know if we can get through this financially. I mean, and he's like, we'll get through it. It's fine. And then it ended up turning out great because then I ended up working at the high school. They were looking for a photography teacher, which is what I did. Yeah. and it worked out great. It just kind of all fell into place. How long did you teach? I'm still there, so it'll be 12 years. Wow. That's cool. So you've had this whole new experience of having students come through and bonding with photography students and bonding with photography students. I'm also the painting and drawing teacher, so yeah. So what are you teaching? Two periods? Three periods? Five classes. Okay. so it changes every year because the student interest changes. So most of the years I've done photography and painting and drawing. um The last few years I'm just doing painting and drawing right now. And this year I implemented a digital drawing class with the Wacom drawing tablets. the, Sparta is a great place to work. They really are, so supportive of like any kind of contemporary learning. So they bought me beautiful Wacom tablets and now the kids are drawing digitally. It's really cool. That's amazing. What would you say um has been your most rewarding moment in your 12 years of teaching? Mmm, so hard. um or there can be more than one. uh I think... One of the most humbling classes I've taught was I was able to teach life skills for two years. Those are like high functioning autistic students. The joy of my day, the joy of my day. um Just because they're so honest and they're like, Ms. Mase, we hate this project. And I'm like, I know you do, but we're still gonna learn how color theory. um I think that has been one of the most rewarding opportunities I've ever had as a teacher. um I think last year I was asked to go to the top 10 dinner. That was extremely humbling. um So it used to be called the top 10 dinner. It's not called that anymore, excuse me. It's called the academic dinner. So it's like the top 10 kids. of the senior year, like with the GPAs, top students get to choose one teacher who influenced them the most out of their whole high school career. I know I was crying. That's really cool. want to cry right now. That's amazing. normal that like a lot of the teachers who get chosen are the same teachers in like math, history, you know. And um I've had students in the past who've been in the top 10, because I teach the AP courses. I teach AP drawing and painting and AP 2D. But I actually couldn't even like register what she was asking me. that time. She's like, you come to my dinner? I'm like, what dinner? It wasn't even processing that she was asking me, but it was so humbling and so honored to have been part of her journey. But there's been so many students like. I had one student who was on the spectrum. He won like a photography competition. I had one student, she won almost a full ride to Parsons Art School. I had one student call me. She was freaking out because she got into the Harvard architecture program and it's very hard to get in and she took lessons from me. It just, has been, if you can hold on, I just want to say to new teachers, if ever new teachers listen to this, like, It's hard to be a new teacher because you don't see the fruits of your labor. But then give it four or five years, six years, and then you see the fruits. Someone peeked in. Hey, Sophie. I don't have sticky notes. em Then you get to see the fruits of your labor. That's actually cool. And when kids start getting into really prominent art, programs or they stop you on the street and they're like hey, thank you for Making me write better because I'm very picky like you have to capitalize your eyes and dot and cross your t's and I'm that art teacher and I might be annoying but I Had one kid we Jeff and I we were at the Billy Joel concert like the 98s like he was retiring a couple years ago and this big kid We're at Madison Square Garden and he comes running over to me and he's like, Ms. Base. I mean, he was big guy and he hugs me and my husband's like, who's this guy? I'm like, I don't even know. I didn't recognize him. Anyway, he was his student and he's like, I was horrible to you. I'm like, yeah, you know, it happens. And he's like, thank you for being the best teacher. And, but with that comes to it's like sometimes you're not the best teacher. and you learn from those lessons too. If you can look in the mirror and say, I mean you are a human, you're not a robot, and say maybe I didn't handle that right, that also is an important lesson to learn, you know? yeah, absolutely. I think it's amazing that, you know, your art served you for so long. Like, my gosh, we can go all the way back to the early years, all through elementary, junior high, high school, college and beyond. And then it served you after your brother passed significantly. But then you've spent the last 12 years serving the future. With it. and affecting their lives and touching their lives and giving it as a tool to them. You've given you've used your art to give back and maybe change the trajectory of some of these students lives. It's such a beautiful moment for you. It really is. wanted to be a teacher. And know, art school, some art schools, I'm not going to say all, they don't really promote art education in the sense of like, that's a good career to have. It's almost poo-pooed upon. It's almost like, it's just your safety track if you don't become an artist yourself. Like, you're just not, you're never going to be good if you become an art teacher. uh or of any kind of worthiness in the art world. And what I've learned, I actually, I cry a lot, I'm a crier. So I was so like, I'm like, I guess I'm gonna be an art teacher out here. Never thought I'd be an art teacher in my hometown, where I always feel like I'm the outsider, because I'm like the artist, you know, I never really fit in in the town in the sense, but I'm organically from here, K through 12. And I'm like, there was a famous art teacher from the Harlem Renaissance. And he said, his students asked him, why are you a teacher? You're in the museums. And he's like, well, who else is going to teach you? I know what I'm doing. And I actually honestly feel like that, like who else is better? I know exactly. I mean, we all know mostly what we're doing, but I really feel confident in what I'm doing, but it's humbling to teach. You want to know how to really know your medium, teach it. Teach it to the most outlandish population you possibly can. That is not rational and they're emotional and there's a lot going on in, you know, inside their minds and their bodies and their emotions and mental health. So it's just like, come full circle for sure. You know? would assume that there is a form of genius in being able to deconstruct a subject, bring it down to its bare bones so that you can then give it and teach it to people who have no idea about anything of it, which is basically what you've been doing. And it's a gift. So I think you have to be an expert in order to be able to teach it. You would have to. You know, and it goes back to when we talked about when you were in Philly and you had your fingers and everything and you dabbled in everything and you anything that was offered, you're like, give it to me. I don't care. I don't care. I'm to learn. I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn. So you're bringing all of that. Well, I haven't changed her major, too, right? Because the school kept the programs done. Pick something else. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good choice. But that's over now. But now she's able to because your point high school. Hello. And you're talking about these kids that social media was not a part of our lives. Phones were not a part of our lives during those years. And that's a whole nother nightmare that adds to mental health. um So what you're encountering with your audience there and then to be able to bring art into their world in the way that I can only imagine you do is it's just such a gift, I think, to the community. Yeah. You've brought it back to where you're from and it's a gift to the community. There's no question. There's no question because you could be teaching anywhere. It's my opinion. So the fact that you're giving it back to your hometown is a beautiful thing. Yeah, you know, um it's funny because people are like who've graduated from there. They're like, has it changed? I'm like, no, it still has that vibe. It's high school. And you see people's names on the walls of the basketballs. It's really kind of fun. It is wild. And sometimes I'm like, what what is going on? It's it's a cool space. never. You know, I guess I just kind of let life happen that way and just kind of allowing um things to come forward. I've been very fortunate. Just I think I'm a person of yes, like if something comes at me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try it to the best of my ability. um But the cool thing about like art, I kind of think of it as like I tell the parents or I tell people like, it's like swimming or like running. It's like a life skill, being creative. Right? So like you can be creative in any industry, really. This serves you in so many spaces. And if we could just take it on that aspect, know, like creativity is very well needed all the time in all spaces. And you're going to take it, I hope, further in college, you know, or in any kind of other industry you're in. So, Yeah. I love teaching art. I really love it. Do you and your mom have like battle or war stories or can you relate? Because she's taught so long, do you get to kind of talk shop in a sense then? we always talk shop. ah know kids are kids and everyone I think it's so freaking funny because you know sometimes you listen to the parents or you listen to people and they're like teenagers I'm like literally they are the same. They are the same since we were in high school they are the same since my parents like they don't want to listen to the rules they're gonna try not to go to school they're gonna be late they're not gonna pay attention like There is like a certain sort of like timber to a high school student. And it makes me giggle because, you know, I feel what bothers me sometimes is like parents, people would be like, oh, your high school teacher, I'm so sorry. I'm like, why? It is a glorious job. And these kids are hilarious and they're our next generation. And we should be uplifting them and showing them the beautiful ways of the world. And if they aren't the beautiful ways, then how can we make it better? Um, but showing them like their own sense of worth and self, cause they're already insecure. Like we were in high school, so it hasn't changed. Yeah, it hasn't. I think the only thing different for them that's made it an even harder battle is technology, is social media. So. we are no phones the last few years and it's in class. It's been glorious. They just installed that in Florida as a law in all schools this year. Love it. Love it. They can go on their phones at lunch and um I don't even know if they can do it when they're changing classes, but they can go on at lunch. So they still have their phone, but they cannot touch it in class. And I love it. It's an amazing thing. I always told the parents like at back to school night, thank you so much for being supportive of that because quite honestly, it has changed the classroom. And now I see their faces, they're talking to each other, they're standing in the hallway talking, there's just more interaction in general. I just, it's just so much better. uh that got lost through every year that they've been more reliant on texting and communicating, Snapchat, all that. That face-to-face organic conversation was lost to them. And I think I love hearing that you're witnessing a return in school for them because that's so needed. They probably like it. It's not having the pressure of always on. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. is this, there's a book we had to read, The Anxious Generation, and it talks about like, even when it's in their bag though, you're still dealing with anxiety because they're still thinking about situations. But there's, mean, like I'm a human being, I try to kind of treat the human. um Like if they're like, hey, can I text my mom to grab my bag? I'm like, sure, it's not a big deal. um My brother's picking me up, can I just say I'm running late? Yeah, sure, that's fine. I need to call my dad and tell him I have to go to work. Fine. Like we all are humans. Hopefully you can create that space. But the cool part about all of this technology is cause as like probably Nate was like my older kid, my kids had the onset of technology. So it was really cool to use the phone in the class at that time. It was really cool to do. But now the kids like they want to do art. hands on now. Like it's more like now they want to do more of like the old school ways of doing things. Like I've even heard kids say I don't want to take digital drawing. I can do that at home. I want to do painting in class. So it's like it's almost kind of gone back to certain things. Like I say the pendulum is always swinging. You try to reach the class where it's at. um think that's amazing that you're witnessing that. And I think that is going to be the new thing is old school, real real life and all the things that that can um kind of work its way into. I think AI, in my opinion, is going to help usher in the desire for more real and more organic and more old school life. And the further AI gets to mimicking us, the I think there's going to be a whole new revolution of anti-technology out there, culture. uh like kids are telling me they're not even getting the iPhones anymore or like the, they're doing flip phones. I've had a few students telling me they're doing that. There's a big movement for the younger generation to that. I actually even thought about it, but I don't know if I could do it yet. I'll be fair. I like my phone. I tell my students all the time. I'm like, I like my phone too. You know, the interesting thing about AI though is I was watching some podcast talking about how this generation, this younger generation, they grow up with AI. So now they just have information available to them at their fingertips. So it actually does free them up to do other things, because instead of having to go out and really Google or search or research and just type in, know, what's the latitude of New York City, whatever, boom. Yeah, I mean, it is humbling sometimes, like the students know more than me in certain spaces. And I'll ask, I mean, you know, to be a contemporary teacher that actually connects with students today, you have to understand that. Like when we were in high school, like our teachers knew we followed the, you know, the, the encyclopedia, the Britannica, the world book or whatever. Yes. But now information is so, you know, and they know more than me because I'm not looking at some of the stuff they're seeing. So you have to learn to really like uh manage like and understand that your student might know more than you in a certain technology. Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I'm so not afraid of that as a teacher. Like that does not bother me like at all. Like, hey, does anyone know how to, what is this program? I've heard about it. You know, like tell me about it. What do you think of it? You know, um. Have you done any classes where you do artwork leveraging their phones at all or tablets? Like you can do incredible things on an iPhone, whether it's Photoshop or Canva or any other things. you have to do things like because I teach public, like I'm a large advocate that it should be available to everybody. So if I have to have them download an app, I won't do that because that means everybody has to now download it. And some people might not have the money or have the money. And even though we do live in a very like affluent area, I've had homeless students. I've taught kids out of a shelter. Right. So I have to be very careful with that. um But yeah, we do things all the time. Like in my AP classes, there's plenty of assignments. You can do anything digitally. You do have options. And then at the end of my advanced classes, you can take anything we've done all year and redo it. That includes digital. But it's so interesting. Most, very rarely, like out of 24, you'll get maybe two or three that wanna do digital. Now, that's only been the last few years. Before that, everyone's like digital, digital, digital. Now there's a flip. And so I find it very interesting, and then I find, and this goes back to actually like my brother passing, like watching my mom. Like there's different ways of learning, right? We learn kinesthetic, we learn auditory, we learn visual, right? Those are the three main. moving, hearing, seeing. And they always say, you favor one, right? But really we learn by them all. It's just which way is like the most, right? But there's also other ways of learning, like through the earth. There's other different types of learning. So you can learn through the earth. And when you plant something, actually, when you touch the soil, there's an actual chemical reaction of an antidepressant from the soil into your hand. Wow, I didn't know that. yeah, it was interesting. And when my brother passed, my mom did a lot of gardening and that's her love. That's her beautiful love. But when kids are in those mediums and they're they're feeling the charcoal and there's nothing like it, no matter how much you do a digital tablet, you are still not feeling how it feels to do charcoal. And I think they really You know, there's one thing I do know kids do is they follow their senses. Like they follow their gut sometimes, you know, and I don't know, know, Sparta is amazing in the arts, visual and performing, you know, and I love the state of New Jersey because we do have the arts and they actually a couple of years ago they upped the empty in requiring the arts to graduate credits in the arts. And I just do feel it gives you a sensitivity to those spaces and understanding. how to ignite that, but also like what it takes to make something of that elk, you know? And it taps into that part of them that they that might be the only experience they ever truly have with that. But that will stay with them. That stays with them and it will manifest itself in other areas of their lives. They may not even know it. It would be subconscious. And you're giving that I love to hear that the students are wanting a more holistic experience of touching, touching things and and being fully. fully immersed in the experience. You can't get fully immersed if you're looking at a screen. just can't. Your brain can, but the rest of your body is not. Yeah, I mean, it's always surprising to see, because I set up trips to museums, how many kids have not gone to museums? And then I take that for granted because my parents brought me to freaking every museum. And I bring my kids. We have memberships. And wow, you guys haven't been to a museum? OK, let's go. Let's do it. They're into it. And honestly, all you do is have to listen. If you can make it happen where I work, they'll make it happen for you. They'll do their best. That's amazing. But I think that goes back to what I said earlier about your childhood. Growing up was unique. I don't think it was normal to be going to museums. It just wasn't the thing. So, you know, for you, that's all you knew. But that wasn't what the majority of kids were doing. And I think your students, you giving that to them, you're bringing back your experience and bringing it. to giving it to them. Again, it's you're giving its generosity. You're giving, giving, giving all this life experience you have. You're giving to them and it's just so unique. So again, I think it's just such a beautiful thing. Is that mainly what you're still doing or have you um kind of gone back out into performing again at this point in your life? So the past couple years, you know, your kids move on and you gotta kind of ground yourself. And my partner, he's away a lot. So like I've been home a lot. And so as we said in my art studio, so yeah, so it used to be his man cave. Hehehehehe And then my daughter and I kind of, I'm just like, I need an art space. Like I don't have a big house, but I need a space where I can actually create. And so we turned it into an art studio and he's been extremely supportive in that space. Like he's just like, yeah, go at it, have at it. So I've been doing art, showing art, doing murals, doing photography. And then Last year I had a call to direct a show. Well, they asked if I could choreograph a play and I kind of had stopped because I had back surgery, but it was cabaret. Wow. And I love the story of Cabaret. And so I was like, I'll choreograph it. And then they called me and they said, hey, guess what? Our director backed out. You want to direct it too? And I had never directed something that big, like of a play. I've done little things. So was like, all right, bring it. So it ended up being like life changing for me, you know, ah because it was just, I have a certain. elk of way I want things to be. And it was a very heavy topic. I don't know if you know the story of Cabaret, but it is about the Weimar onset in Berlin, Germany. And it actually comes from a true story of ah was written. A man was in Berlin at the time and he wrote about what was going on at that time. And he was a gay man. So there was a lot going on at that time. So long story short, I had a ball. And it was a very intense show because you do have the implementation of World War II. And I had just graduated from Kean University. I did a post-baccalaureate in teaching the Holocaust and how to identify diversity in the classroom. um And so I just came out of like, Keen University has a program through the Jewish Federation. I'm not Jewish, but if you apply, you can get in and they pay for it because they want people to know about the Holocaust who are not raised to Jewish. So I was like, yeah, because I have a lot of Jewish students and sometimes in my AP art classes, because it's a college course, I'm able to connect with them a little better in understanding like literature. um And so I ended up doing an incredible photo essay for them and I'm actually gonna be having a one woman show with them this year. um But I'll talk about that. I have a photo down here about that. um So basically why directing actually came about in such a beautiful way because it's like you said, everything that kind of came my dancing, it's set design, it's choreography, it's acting, it's music, it's costumes, it's almost everything. And then you're also, one thing I was so humbled by that I discovered is how beautiful the human being is as a medium. Mm. Like, wow, like they trust you enough to like, hey, what do you think about this in this scene? What do you think about standing versus sitting? You know, it just was an incredible space and since such sensitive material that the people who came into my life at that time were just so trusting and it ended up being just such a humbling creative experience. I met so many beautiful. beautiful people at that point. uh Life changing. And that was last year when you were 52. Isn't that amazing at 52 that you are having that experience? That's what I was thinking. It's a whole new thing. Such a blessing. You did. Now I wanna direct more. But I need, I don't know, I need something with neat, like a message. That's why I like cabaret, because it has a message to it that I believe in. So I ended up doing a lot of plays. I ended up doing... Not just directing, but being in plays last year. I was like in five shows. It was a whirlwind. Yeah. Yeah. you were doing that and also still teaching. Yeah, yeah, but no one's home. My cat. Right. Right. Right. No. And it does. It does free you up. It definitely does. I don't know yet, but I'll know in three years. I had been a little lonely, know, a lot lonely and I just needed like a community. Because even though I love my job, it's a job. It's not like it's like a community, you know. I'm talking to teenagers all day and I love it, but it's like, you know, I need an adult community. So I just went back to auditioning after Cabaret and then it was very healing because the first show I did was Footloose and the character I got lost her son in a drinking and driving accident. So the mother. Wow. And then the next show I got was I got the mom role. I've been doing a lot of mom roles. Bright Star, I played the grandma role in that where they pulled the baby away from her. It was very maternal. And then it played Grizzabella in Cat. It just was like all these like very spiritual spaces. Yeah. It was very cool. just allowed the healing to happen. I don't know why it just kind of kept pouring in. It's a spiritual experience. There is no question. What a journey. What a journey. But I needed a break over the summer. I was done. After Cats, I was like. I bet. Your nervous system was probably like, OK, give me a break. You know, it really just does say to time, like what is time? We all in our minds think like, and I get into this pocket of being an older woman and my sister working in Hollywood, like it is hard for women our age in our fifties to find the space of entertainment of a role, you know, and we are women who don't do plastic surgery and I'm not downing it at all. It's just, I just, I'm not interested in doing that to myself and my face. So. Where do I fit in? Like, am I worthy? And I'm going to say thank goodness for Pamela Anderson for just like putting herself out there in spaces of insecurity where we feel we need all this. We don't just just go do it. Don't you feel though that there's already a switch and that real faces are coming back because it went so far that everyone's face looks starting to look the same. And again, no judgment. Everyone does whatever they need to make them happy. don't I'm I wouldn't recognize myself, but I have seen where it seems like natural real faces with expression are now going to be the new thing. I don't know if that's going to happen, but I'm seeing that kind of out there a little bit. So when I was drawing, I have like this whole series I did like on the golden years is like some drawings back here of like 50 plus. There's like gold in them, but like when I sit and I'm like looking and drawing all the wrinkles, I'm giggling because I'm like, this is so fun to draw these laugh lines. And I really want to get like my Botox here. I really want it. But then like, I'm like, do I, I don't know if I, if I could get rid of this as an artist, I don't know how I feel about it. And then my husband's like, I won't know if you're angry. And I'm like, yeah, you're gonna know. You're for sure gonna know. But I just, I did this one self portrait two years ago. I started this like journey on the golden years and like just calling it the golden year series and just drawing my wrinkles and just laughing. Like as I'm doing it, I couldn't help but laugh. I'm like, this is glorious. Yes, I feel blessed to have that because it's life. Right. I've made it another year. And to me, this is part of my journey. And I view it as um a mark of my life, guess. Just like my stretch marks on my belly are what I gave life. And I would never want to take That's my sign. That's that's actually my mark, my reward to prove I gave life to three human beings. This is a proof that I've lived. I've laughed. I've been angry. I've cried my eyes out. And here it is. You know what I mean? And it exists. It has a right to exist. I don't want to erase it. I don't want to erase my happiness, my joy and my sorrow because it has a right to be present, even if it's on my face. And thankfully, my husband Uh, is supportive. He he's anti-plat. He doesn't want me to do anything, but God forbid if we weren't together anymore, I don't care to attract a man that would need me to do that in order to be with me. I'd rather be alone. So. I just cut all my hair off. It's short now, but I'm like going to grow my gray. just, I don't know why it's just time for me. You know, I just, um, ready. I think, you know, again, to be women supporting women, whatever a woman needs to do as she ages to feel happy, I'm 100 % supportive. And so I just want to be clear about that. Just because you just talked about your gray, I'm not there yet. I still am coloring it. It's right here. It's in the very front. And so I wish it was back here because I want to see it. I don't care what anyone else sees. But it's right. So I am not there yet. And I'm wondering when is it when am I going to get to that point? I have a stripe in here, but I just cut it. like it's going to grow, but I grew my gray during COVID and I didn't like it. Like I felt like I looked old and I felt insecure with it. And then I colored it. And of course my daughter's like, mom, you know, you look beautiful. Keep your gray. All my kids are like, mom, keep your gray. But I just, it's, know, that's just a choice like for every other person. Like, I don't know why us women are really struggling, letting go of the color. Some of us. Some of my friends have really embraced it. They're beautiful. I think it's the dark, the gray. It's just so stark sometimes. uh and more women embracing their gray. I don't like the gray. Well, there you go. There's his opinion. Well, no, for me, not for you. Kaia came over yesterday. kitty. Yeah, you know, you don't like the gray in you, Brian. No, no, she came over. She's like, boy, your hair's getting long. And I was like, yeah, I know. You know, she's like, it's getting great, too. Like, all right, see you. Yeah, he doesn't like the gray. But yeah, I see more and more women. But no, no, I think that's always now that one. Yeah, yeah, they're not going to do it. But I love that you have done a series called The Golden Years. That's that's really, really. Are you? Is that in any galleries or has it been in any galleries? oh in NJIT. This piece I'm just finishing up and then the other piece now, because it's just a self-portrait. I kind of find it like sometimes, you know, it's not egotistical. just, I guess maybe the artist in me is just always, I'm just looking. I'm like the model, you know, for myself half the time. But I'm just curious about. I've done this whole photo series where it's kind of crazy. Maybe you'll do it when you get off the phone with me. It's like my sister and I do this all the time. Like we'll photograph ourselves. I started this where you photograph yourself like this and then you hang like this and you photograph with your face down and then you photograph with your face laying back and it's crazy how different you look as a person and I've been doing that with people and they're like wow like because I feel it like hang and it's just the physicalness of it but I feel the same when I look in the mirror. I feel the same as like my 18 year old self in a way. Like it's just my soul or my whatever the spirit inside me but it just is my body doesn't feel that way. Yeah, it's the hardest thing to explain to the younger generations is you see us and we're in our fifties and you think that's old, but I'm telling you, we're the we feel the same like as when we were 30. We are the same person. It's just your body ages. So but, you know, I remember thinking 54 was old and now I'm 54 and I'm like. Now I'm I'm still going. This is I'm still in it. Nothing's slowing down. Yeah, I think like the slow down part, I've slowed down a little bit because I think parts of me like I miss Manhattan and I would love to have like an apartment there, but I don't know if I could do it full time. um I'd have to live a very certain way. Yeah, it's fast. There is a lot going on. Yeah, and I actually wouldn't mind even retiring there somewhere. I need entertainment, know, shows and things to do. But yeah, I slow down. Like, I need to be in bed by nine with my cats and chill out, eat by seven. Well, I think we were talking about that earlier. We do like to eat early and we do go to bed earlier. We're still not the best at that. I always say sleep is my Achilles heel. I do get in bed earlier, but I still struggle to get to sleep as early as I want, you know. But I think perimenopause, menopause, hormones, all of that. Yeah. Are you on HRT? Me too. Yes, I will. I wish I tell anytime I have someone on that's gone through it. I'm like, let's talk about this because I want the younger generations to know because I wish I knew in my late thirties that it could be hitting as early as thirty seven and that in my forties it was going to hit me, which it did. I would have gone on HRT much earlier and I would not have suffered for so many years because no one talked to Gen X about it because no one talked to our mothers about it. They just went through it. So I think Gen X is like we're gonna talk about it Yeah, I asked my doctor, I'm like, well, what did women do before all this? She goes, suffered. Yep. Yep. It's true. because it's painful at times. But did your doctor come to you proactively or did you have to go seek it out? I switched doctors and instead of like just going to like an OBGYN, I started going to a urogynecologist because they're pretty much in the same vicinity for us girls. And I was having some trouble and so then they... gave me an IUD which helped for a while. did ablisions and IUDs and all that kind of thing. But then uh recently my hot flashes have gone out the wazoo like four or five a night. I wasn't sleeping at all. was just, you know, ice packs. Everyone's like, where's the ice packs? They're in my bed. I'm sleeping with three ice packs on. I just was a hot mess. And I haven't been able to drink wine in years because the wine will just make my legs feel like they're on fire. Yeah. Yeah. basically they put me on a patch, a low dose, and that worked pretty good. And then she's, I still was having like a couple hot flashes a night and she's like, you know, how's your mood? And I'm like, what do mean? I don't like anyone or anything. Just stop right here. Everyone just stay away from mom. She's locked herself off in the art studio. No joke. So the up. my ester doll and I now I'm on a little higher dose which definitely has helped tremendously. Yeah, I'm on 0.5. Yep, me too. And then I take two progesterones a night, that's 200 milligram, that's the sleep. Cause I had a hysterectomy in 2020, but I kept my ovaries because I didn't want to be going, I was already in perimenopause unknowingly. You would have thought with all the prep work that went into the hysterectomy, someone would have brought up perimenopause, but no. So I did keep my ovaries that stopped me from going straight into menopause for a few years, but everything else was gone. And finally, a year and a half ago, I think it was, about a year and a half ago, a year and three months ago, I got on the estrogen patch, the 200 milligrams of progesterone, just for sleep because I don't have a uterus, and I do testosterone cream in the morning in addition to supplements. what I eat in addition to walking, weight training, lymphatic, all of this shit. It's like putting a puzzle together. the em dry brushing, oil pulling, ah you know, and I would say all the things I can find to do walking over 10,000 steps a day. The one thing that I still, I always say it's like putting Humpty Dumpty back together again, but the one thing that I still have not um been able to get a handle on is sleep. And I don't know how much of it's related to hormones and perimenopause, menopause. And I don't know how much of it's just related to my own lack of discipline, you know, of just being like, go to sleep, you know, and turn everything off and just go. So, but that's been the hardest thing. But there's so many symptoms to perimenopause. like over 80. And I just read like that's the highest divorce rate is women in menopause, perimenopause. You know, it's just like, I know it's like it comes off that we don't care, but at the same time, we are literally a battleground at the moment. And when you just figure it out, like when you just have figured it out, you are now dealing with all this other stuff and it, you know, they don't tell you like, They didn't discuss the amount of pain you're in, or other pains that come with that, or aches and pains, heart palpitations, anxiety, depression, all these things. And we're not identifying them as markers in the sense of, oh, we gotta help her. Society needs to help her. It's just like, what else is wrong with a woman in her 50s, you know, after she just gave three beautiful children to the globe. You know, it just is like the support network has really been, I think in the last few years, our generation just speaking up and speaking out and speaking loud about like, we got to stop, we got to stop the shaming in this area for other women to understand that. And there's more research probably to do. I'm no doctor, but I'm just saying I really feel the hormones are amazing. Yeah, 100%. Anytime somebody comments about it or asks a question, I'm like, speak to your provider to see if you're a candidate for HRT, please. It's life-changing. Yeah, it helped take away edginess. wasn't as weepy. I did go through a period where was weepy, where everything was making me cry, but it was more an edginess, you know? And so it helped with that. It softened. It softened me. I still miss like honestly, and I know this is gonna be a, I still miss monthly cycles, I'll say it in a nice way. I do because I just really felt like, I guess I'm just a cyclical person. I really kind of like, you know, it's just kind of like you're in this like limbo. But I've read this really cool thing about like cold tubs, because. My partner's really into cold tubs. We have a cold tub. We have a hot tub. That's all the tubs. women aren't really, I've just kept saying like, this is way too cold for me. if it were like 55, 60, I can get in it. And then I just read this woman from, this female doctor, she is from Berkeley, California. Anyway, she talks about how women should not be going into cold tubs like below 55 degrees. but also all these things of like not treating our bodies as like small versions of male bodies. Like we are completely different in how we address things. So she talks about menopausal cycles using the moon as your cycle. That is, okay, so everything you just said about the cold plunge, because Brian's also very much into cold plunge. um The colder the better. You're dead on. drone loves a good fast and cold plunge. Have at it! Actually, you're so right. I'm a huge faster and a huge columbia, but she's not in either. No, because the fasting kicks are cortisol. yeah, they can hang out, but you are 100 % right. I think I saw the same doctor talking about it or someone else like Well, she's well known. forget her name, but she. You're so spot on. And it's interesting that you talk about losing our em menstrual cycle phases, the luteal phase, the follicular phase, all those phases because, and the Gen Z women are on it with that. Like they're so good with their phases. Like Kyle say, I can't do that. I'm not doing that. I'm in my luteal phase. And they take such good care of themselves during their, I wish we would have had any clue because we were just the grinders and we were treated like men. Like screw your phases. You're going to do it you're going to do it while you're profusely. yeah. cramping and feel like you're giving birth because the cramps are so painful. That's how Gen X women dealt with it. And the Gen Z women, God bless them, have recognized their phases and they're like, I'm supposed to eat salmon during this phase and I'm not supposed to do hard cardio during this phase. And they honor it. And I love that. But I love that you just brought up for those of us who are menopausal to get our cycle back, follow the moon phases. Right, she says follow the moon phases, like even with fasting because fasting, know, I mean, don't quote me on this because I'm not a doctor, but she was talking about like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone, like testosterone loves fasting. This is my interpret, this is what she stated. But when you have the implementation of progesterone and estrogen, you have to understand like those fasting sometimes triggers those hormones to create more hormones. So instead of like, us losing weight during fasting, actually gain weight during fasting because our body is like, wait, what do mean? You need to have this. So long story short, she said to go by the moon and then only fast during certain times because since we don't have our menses, we, you know, it's basically like one week, no fasting, one week fasting, one week, no fasting, just like, you know, the four week cycle it is. Yeah. thought that was interesting because I was trying to fast and I kept saying to Jeff like, I am gaining weight, like nothing's happening. Like I'm miserable. And then when I listened to her, I'm like, I get it. And I'm trying to sit in these like cold tubs that are like 40 degrees. And I'm like, I can't only get into here. And I did like Wim Hof. Do you guys know Wim Hof? I love him. And I was getting during COVID got up to, I love Wim Hof. is... I was really into it, but I'm like, this cold tub is just really, is just like, 40 degrees, 45 degrees, I can't do it. No, it's not for us. It's not for us because when we're being put, like you just said, when our body's being put through that type of stress, it has the opposite reaction. our cortisol goes through, and by following the moon cycles, basically it's showing us when to be gentle on ourselves. Just like how the Gen Z girls and the younger millennial women at least, but probably the older ones too, they have their menstrual cycles still to tell them, like I said, Don't do hard cardio during this month. You're to be, or you're supposed to be gentle. The moon cycle could, I'm going to look into that. And when we're done with the episode, if you wouldn't mind seeing if you could find who was talking about that. And I'm going to include it in the show notes. I can picture her. You know, but yeah, was. when I was in high school, like Sophie, she's like, mom, cause she's, as she's aging, her symptoms have become a little bit more intense. She's like, did you have this? I go in high school, I can't stress enough. I was absent one to two days a month. I was throwing up. That's how bad my symptoms were during that time. And like, so then again, you're thinking about this in high school, like as a high school teacher, I'm looking at these girls, I'm looking at like, God bless, like literally having a day. You could see it in their faces. And you get pale, get white at the sheet, and then if you are heavy bleeding, you could bleed through your pants at school. Hello? So, I mean, there's so much going on. I actually had that happen this past year. It was just literally like the poor student turned around. She's like, Miss Mace, I need you to look at something. And I saw and I'm like, immediately you need to go to the nurse. She's like, what? And she was wearing white pants. But like there was a group of girls around her and I'm like, go get me a smock. m I said, you need to wear the smock down to the nurse. And she's like, really? I go, no, you absolutely need to wear this. But I looked at the other girls and they're just kind of just standing there and go, girls, what are we doing? I go, somebody grab her bag. You both are gonna walk her down. Like there's no shame in this. We shouldn't be embarrassed. This is part of life. Let's just do it in a beautiful, know, mature, discreet way and just like walk her down and see if she needs anything. You know, I had that happen in high school. That's terrifying. You know, when you bleed through your pants, I mean, what a horrific time to do that. It's honestly traumatic. um again, there you are again, giving back to your students and helping change the trajectory of things. But I think that when we were growing up, was definitely something to be... You were embarrassed to even carry a tampon down to the bathroom. You hid it somewhere. And then to make the noise of opening the tampon in a women's restroom when they already know what that's... And you're embarrassed... that they, you're embarrassed that they know you have your period. So I pray and hope that the uh narrative around girls in the menstrual cycle, women in the menstrual cycle is changing. It's natural. It's not shameful. Actually, it's they're warriors. They're warriors because they're doing everything a man can do, everything a boy can do, but they're bleeding while they're doing it. And so the entire person is in cramping. like throwing up. yeah. the cramps can feel like, speaking to someone who's given birth three times, can feel like labor pains. They can. And if you're a young teenage girl, you don't even know that you are going through some pain that women that give birth go through. I hope that that is something Gen Z and Gen Alpha truly change. What were you going to say? I'm just curious if you've noticed that. I mean, we've seen it with our daughter, but are you seeing a shift? Like is it as bad as what you're describing as when we were in school, I don't know, I was oblivious, right, I'm a guy. But has it moved forward as it progressed? Are the girls more supportive? they'll say it more. They might say that they have their period. I mean, I don't know if I would have said that in high school to a teacher. with other girls and oh, so to you as a teacher, but not like the whole class. I got my period. I'm going to go, but they're probably saying it to their friends. They probably. are like, I will have some pretty, I mean, I'm in the art classroom, so you'll have some pretty loud and vocal students about it. um But I have seen changes even in my own sons, like I always was like, I need you guys to go get this for me at the grocery store. And I always was like, well, how long? Like I'm kind of quizzing my men. Like how long do you think a woman has a period? Like what do you think this is? Like, and you might have daughters one day and you know, like we shouldn't be ashamed to have these conversations. And then my Jackson's he's hilarious. He's like, mom, my girlfriend's a nurse. I know all these things too. Like I'm still like, he's 25 and I'm like, do you know this? He's like, yes, you've told me a thousand times. And I'm just like, because I think hiding is more exhausting. And what are we hiding about? Something that's natural. something that should be honored in Native American cultures. The woman could go in a teepee and not expect to do anything for a week. And it was honored. I saw a woman on social media talking to her son. He looked like he was maybe 10. And they were looking at a washing machine. And she says, do you know what that is? And he says it's blood. And she goes, OK, we're just going to take some hydrogen peroxide clean. And she goes, now, if you ever see a girl that where she has some blood that's on her pants, what should you do? What does that mean? Should she be ashamed? What do you do as a young man to help? Do you ever make fun? And that is where it has to start too. The mothers have got to change it. And I will say I'm probably 70 % was good on that. I, with Nathan, my older one, and I'm working on being better with my younger son. Cause I still had some of that Gen X in me where I talked about it with my daughter, but I wasn't as vocal about it with. my older son and I've learned and evolved and now with my younger son I'm better. Because I want to send out men who do right by women. My whole thing is, like, you know, it's hard when they're young like that, but I think as they've gotten older, my whole thing was like, don't, you know, they would talk about like girlfriends having like belly aches. It's that time of the month. And I'd be like, yeah, I'm sure she doesn't feel good. Maybe go over, give her some, get some ice cream and watch a movie. I'm sure she feels sick. Be sensitive to that. You know, their bodies hurt. Just not shame it because, you know, and it just is a part of life that we just have to embrace. Like one of my favorite books is The Red Tent and it was actually a life-changing book for me. Did you ever read that, The Red Tent? But it's a fictional story about uh basically the Bible written from a female point of view. But The Red Tent was where they went. Mm-hmm. during that time and then also like they were able to like birth babies in the red tent. So it just was like as if like, liturgy was written during that time and then what would the women say? know, what were the women experiencing? I'll buy it for you, I'll send it to you. But it just was like, I'm just, I'm all over like, like. not shaming anybody really, but just like that whole space of a, why should we, I think it also comes from now thinking about it when we talk about it, like I had to hide that I was a mom, I had to hide that I was married, I had to hide that I had kids at such a young age at a time where it should have been so glorious. And I'm over here having a glorious time with my children, but in my career I had to hide and we shouldn't have to do that. And now there's so many spaces I've read. and young women owning businesses where they have period days. That's what they're called, right? They have days. They have days where women can sit at home and use them. mean, we have sick days, so that's fine. But yeah, think opening the doorway to that, the pathway, and I think my daughter even said, she's like, my industry, it's hard to have kids in my industry, like in computer science. She feels that at the moment. Hard to be a mom, she said. I said, why? She goes, well, know, like the hours and the amount it takes to be in computer science. go, then make it happen. You can change the gate, own your own business, bring the women to you. Like have nursing stations if you want them. um Have the women work from home. Like there's just so many options. You don't have to settle for that um anymore. And I feel like, yeah, stand on my shoulders, make your ancestors proud. um In all areas, I think that also works for men too. um I agree. I agree. That's that's great advice, honestly. I hope to raise, I've raised pretty amazing kids as you have and like healthy sons who think, who are sensitive and supportive, you know. That's that is part of this is mothers and how they're raising their sons. It really is a big part of it. So um and I think many Gen X women and uh millennial women are being part of the change. Not all Gen X women. There's some of some Gen X women that haven't been able to break that cycle. But for those of us that have worked their tails off just to try to break some generational trauma, break the cycle and and send out more evolved men into the world. know, I think we were the first ones to start that shift and then the millennial women are, I think, really doing it, which is exciting to see. And I think I can't wait to see what Gen Z women produce. I'm excited to witness all that. Sometimes a little too excited. My daughter tells me, because I'm ready for grandchildren. that'd be exciting. So tell us about this one woman show. Oh, so it's at Kean University. I'm not exactly sure when it's happening, but I'm sending the specs over this week. um It's a photo essay I did on a story called Anonymous Girl. um The book was written by Alex Zapruder, and it's a true story. So I'm sure you've heard of Anne Frank, right? So during that time, not only Anne Frank wrote stories about what was going on. There were many children who wrote, who were um writing at that time. And so there's this young girl who actually wrote, they don't have a name for her, but she's called Anonymous Girl. It's a collection of stories of children's stories during that time. She was in Auschwitz and she wrote down all the, food rations that she got while she was in a concentration camp. And so for my final in the, in the class, you you write papers, but being an artist, I always asked if I could do an art piece or photography. she, he agreed to my proposal. And so basically what I did is I revisited and I basically photographed the rations that she got while she was in. a concentration camp for a family of five. And she documented them and I made the bread. got the there was an actual photographer. I mean, just to backtrack, there was a photographer. There were photographers in em some concentration camps because they wanted to document what was going on. And then they ended up trying to burn the film at the time. And that's another whole story. So I was able to find research on, actually what things look like. food wise or what was made. you know, so the rations, um it was very hard to photograph because I could hear her. Like I could hear her, like, it sounds like a uh strange thing to say, but I could hear her jump for joy that these recipes, these documentations, not even recipes, like these, her notes were coming to life in photographs. So basically, they're just photographs of rations that she was given while she was in a concentration camp. And I photographed them in an old world way with props and things. And I followed recipes from that time. And I measured them out. So a lot to be looked at. But it makes you. humbled to the amount of food not only that you have access to, but every time I throw even the littlest bit of bread away, I struggle. Really, really struggle. I'm sure it's incredibly powerful. Yeah, so Kean University has asked me to do like a show, a photography show. So yeah, so I'll let you know about that when that comes about. Yeah, yeah. you have anything you can show us or is it all under wraps until you do your show? I have... We have this photo. I don't know if you can see it. It's hard to see. Yes, I can see it. What is that? it's like, this one's actually a contemporary one. So I put all the food that she talked about that she got in plastic bags on like this wooden crate. Um, but that is about basically like, if you were in a camp today, if you were a refugee and were told you had to leave, if you were in a camp, like how are you going to bring your food? Yeah. Like, did they do it in plastic bags like that picture? do it back then, but I did it in plastic bags just to show, kind of basically like bringing it more contemporary. This one is... They used to, I don't know if how much, if you could see it looks like steaks on a... So that is, it's called horse meat because what they would do is they would shoot the horses and then um feed the horse meat to the... people who are in the encampments, but they also would bleach the meat. They would bleach the meat, like soak it in bleach. They would throw bleach on it so they couldn't eat it. So they would give it to them, but they would, it would be bleach. Like it already had bleach on it when they gave it to them. So it was useless. It's the tease torture. Yeah, was just, it was awful, obviously. And so our last class, had to write about two stories that made an impact on us. I've done some work photographing in spaces, in countries with not a lot of food. I've been to Haiti a couple times. I used to work at Manna when I was in high school. And I had a great grandmother. My grandmothers were extremely important to me, but my one great grandmother was from Slovakia and she came over as a teenager through Ellis Island and food was very important to her. Like she had a huge garden and she came to marry a man she didn't know. So after World War I, she came over. um And I don't know why, just like the, like, we have all this food plethora and we can't feed people. Yeah. Yeah. And so that stuck with me that this little girl, she probably was around 12, just documented. That's all she could do was enough to document food. Her family of five. I have one photo where it's like just a spoonful of noodles. ah Well, no, that's what she had all day. But she had well, to go back to you asked, how would you carry? How did they carry the food? Like you put that in plastic bags for the picture. oh have other ones. They actually used canvas bags back then. And they had like bowls. um what you've done is, man, I'm blown away because I love photography, but I'm very much mechanical aperture. You know, I saw all that. Very technical. I can look at something. I can take a cool picture of a bridge. this is next level to take a contemporary twist on an old school, completely just insane part of human history. I think that's really cool. Kudos to you. That's like unbelievable. And to represent it, it obviously struck a chord with them, right? Cause they're trying to raise awareness. You've brought this different perspective to it. You hit a nerve, you struck a chord. It's resonated and to have them want you to come back and share it in plastic bags, leaving a concentration camp in Nazi Germany. That wasn't a thing. There were no plastic bags, I'm sure. That's really cool. Yeah, I wish my website was up, but I just took it down last week. I'm so upset. But I can send you the video for that. ah Because what I ended up doing is I had a child actually, I made a whole video. And so it goes through photo by photo and the recipes. And then I had a child read it as you're looking at the photos. So like. you can hear her voice with it as she's reading it. you know, sometimes I feel like, you know, life brings us like. How can, I don't wanna say turn that frown upside down, but like. That's kind of an insensitive way to say it, but to me it's like, it really worth it? Life can be so short and we're just trying to feed a 12 year old. Is that what it's coming down to? For me anyway, in my life, that's my purpose. I feel... a lot of people with food insecurities. And actually, in fact, here in Palm Beach County, where we are, the kids are given free food. And it's a wonderful thing, really, because not everybody goes home and has food thrown away. You know, you forget that. again, like I can't say how privileged I grew up. I've always had. I didn't have a lot, but like we had a meal. We had three meals a day. No matter what, even if my dad didn't have a job, we had three meals a day. And I know kids who don't. I've bought plenty of meals, you know, like uh serve our own. But, you know, throughout history, um I don't know why I feel sometimes when it's told through the child's eyes, we listen a little better as adults. I don't know why. um yeah, when you hear like a little girl talk about what she can't eat and what she used to have and what she's eating now, and it just brings it full circle to today, like globally. Yeah. in our own country, in our own state, like there are people who don't have. And so like for my art, like I always say, it needs to have a meaning for me, a purpose to serve the higher being or the higher cause. Like I would like to think I left the world a little better than I came into it with. So at least somehow gave a positive light, you know. I can assure you, you are and you have and your legacy is is definitely that. There's no question about it. So I'm here. You are seen and that is definitely your legacy. There is no question about it. Yeah. enough. um tell the great maker, I'm like, I'm trying. I'm working real fast, but my thumbs have arthritis. I can't work as fast as you're bringing it towards me. um menopause, that's one of the things too. That's one of the symptoms. You know, I don't know if that's what's caused yours, but that is one of the symptoms. I think it's just from painting a lot, but I feel very blessed to have been as fortunate to be able to receive the messages that I do, that I'm able to do it. I'm in a place where I can, and um I have the support network to be able to do it. Yeah. That's awesome. You'll have to have to keep us posted on the date on that on your channel for sure. For sure. I'd love to see the full exhibit. It's pretty cool. Definitely. And when you get your um website up and everything back up, you have to let us know because we'll go in to the description of your episode and add in like where people can find you. If you have socials, your website, we can go back and retroactively add that information in. Because as people listen, they're going to want to go and find you and find your stuff and everything. Yeah, I would love for it to be picked up because I mean I have spent a small personal fortune on all of this and I know it's gonna hit someone somewhere. For sure. There's no question. Absolutely. And uh people are going to want to see your art. So as soon as you have that available, you need to make sure and let us know. before I ask my last question, do you have any more questions? I don't think so. But your daughter's name is Sophie, right? So I would say this, I'm in technology and I don't think she has to worry too much about the work life, family, having kids. That's good. has changed. do hire people and stuff like that and it's not an issue. And so I think she should be uh confident to be herself, right? so yeah, that's a male perspective. uh I don't know what she's been told, you know, in school or even the job she's worked in, but maybe sometimes the newer jobs. I mean, I remember being an intern. You work a lot of hours. Yeah. Yeah. you know, I'm not, I would, if she's still young and, you know, work her ass off, sure. But at some point when she's ready to have kids, I don't think that's an impediment in technology anymore. Yeah, that's awesome to hear. That's the same thing in arts, I think in general everywhere. Except maybe if you're a surgeon. I would assume you have to be in surgery. But thank you for that. I'll pass it on to her for sure. yeah. All right, I have one question. uh Like I say, that project strikes a chord with me. I think it's awesome. I'm so jealous that you have that level of creativity to be able to take something and go somewhere that I don't ever think of. Because I would love to make like a little short film or do little things like that, but I don't have that creative juice. So to get to that, how many iterations did you go through before you landed at All right, this is what I hear. finally got it. Or did you have the vision and then, and then carried it forward or did you kind of stumble into it through a creative process? I don't know if you're gonna- tomorrow. My answer has always been the same since I was 18. I don't really feel they're my visions. I literally just listen to spirit. I feel like a medium, like a transient. That's interesting. eh like, I didn't go through any process really. just, in my mind, I heard it, I did it. I did go through like photography process in the sense of like how I wanted the photo to look. Like if that makes sense, I printed it on like uh a gritty paper so it looks almost like fabric in a way. um I did play with timing of light and that stuff but I. In my mind, I knew exactly how I wanted it to look with the tone. And I just knew how to get there. um I'm a big proponent of getting, and I tell this to all my students, of getting out of your head, getting out of your heart, and getting lower in your creativity. And just don't question it. What do mean by getting lower? Like stop thinking so much, stop feeling so much and going from like your base, the bottom of your spine. But that is also performing, a performing technique. Like um learning to breathe like through the bottom of your spine down to the earth. That's a performing technique to pull energy back up into it. That's like an acting technique. That's a dancing technique, but I'm a big proponent of like just um Michelangelo who painted like the Sistine Chapel. I resonate with him only because he said, I don't really even feel like I'm creating. I feel like the divine is going through me. And I actually have always felt that. Like this mural I'm doing right now. I mean, it's a little, it's, I need to finish this mural, but it's. It's a spiritual anatomy I'm working on, just processing it, but it's a portrait of my son and his friend and there's things going on. at one point, and I was telling him the other day, I'm like painting. I have to paint with gloves on because there's like metal and it's oils. And suddenly I felt, and it's hard to explain, but I felt like divine universal love. And my hand felt like I could actually put it through the wall. And then I just started crying because I felt the love that they had for each other. And then I felt like universal. Like I didn't even want to leave. I didn't want to move my hand because I could feel that it was pouring through me. And then I felt it was actually so authentic that I was like being able to document something like this and actual human matter. And that's really kind of just where my creativity comes from. I don't know where it comes from other people. Yeah. Wow. I honestly feel like when I'm in it, I don't have a choice. Mm-hmm. That's that's what where you said you feel like a medium I feel like a medium in it, but I have also been scared of it and have stayed away from it because it is so intense at times. I'm sure. And then I'm angry sometimes because I don't want that responsibility. Do you ever what you just described sounded kind of like an out of body experience? I was going to ask you, do you ever have one? But that sounds like that kind of was one. That was the first time when I was painting that it felt like I could actually go through the wall. Like it was kind of like this, what's that movie? I was trying to say Interstellar. Did you guys ever see that? Yeah, a long time ago, though, because that was what like. the dad's talking to the daughter through the wall. And kind of similar to these photos where I could actually hear her. I could hear her. Yeah. talking to me, making these photos. And I just kept saying to her, because honestly, when you're telling someone else's story, especially something so sensitive like that, you have to be sensitive to their story. It's not my story, right? It's her story that I'm trying to bring to life in a humanistic way, but honoring who she was as a human. So I just. When I work in that sense of space, like the photography, like telling a story, like that's not my story. I, I will say to myself, and I'll say to the person, please help me, help me be authentic to the story, like be sensitive to who they are. But when I'm creating my own sense of self, like I just go for what go from lower than the gut, like your base chakra. Am I sounding too heebie-jeebie? No, no, that's we were actually talking about the Kundalini. Have you heard of the Kundalini? Yeah. So we had a guest on and she was talking about that. Brian and I were talking about it today and. And then that made me think of chakras and then you just said uh your lowest chakra, it makes perfect sense. It does. So it's a lived experience, too. you're a storyteller in that sense. But the getting out of the head. Yeah, 100%, 100%. But the getting out of the head, think that's your biggest challenge is Brian's in his head so deeply and never has a break. Always. Yeah, no, I was just thinking that it's like, never. Cold plunging gives him a break. Yeah, yeah. It's the only time his. Yeah, well, it's so primal, right? You hop in the cold weather. or the cold water and you fully submersed yourself and it's shocking. it's shocking, especially being in Florida, we've acclimated. So 50 degrees to me, it might also be minus 50. Yeah, but you're right. think that's the creative, my creative bottleneck or obstacle is my own head for sure. Yeah. So I have another friend, we were having this conversation and she was an illustrating major and she talks about like being our age and I have these really great exercises and I'm gonna challenge you to do this. I challenge you to take your camera and make bad photos. Bad photos. No bad. Yeah, bad. Bad photos. I thought you said mad. Do all the things you're not supposed to do. Where do you even start with that because? uncomfortable, make a, light leaks, open the lens, shut the lens down, move the camera, swing the camera around, lick the lens. We used to put Vaseline on the lens. Like you gotta get out of here. And when I teach like people who are extremely cerebral and technical, um they gotta get out of that space. But you also have the opposite. You have people who are so emotional. They can't get out of that space. They can't get technical. What makes a, to me, what makes a beautiful artist like really like that, it is like they're good at technique and their, their technique shows through their creativity, if that makes sense. So there's a, there's an ebb and flow. And so if you think of it like an ocean, like creation is like an ocean tide, like it comes and goes, it comes and goes, right? Like, Sometimes we erase and sometimes we gotta put more pencil back and sometimes we gotta add light and sometimes we gotta take away light. But my thing for you would be if you were my student, I would say make all the things like go for the ugly and see what you find out. And don't be too hard on yourself because you're gonna find out that that's actually kinda cool. Look what I just did. throwing my lens in the dryer. I mean, I'm not saying to do that, but like. where the film cameras come in for me because I'll go out with a what is it? I don't even it's like it's a film camera that no longer has film and I'll retrofit it for like 120 and these things leak light and stuff and I made a pinhole camera once and and it technically the pinhole camera was perfect dimension. No, it made it from wood just from scratch. And technically it was perfect, but then the pictures are imperfect and they're some of my favorite pictures of like a waterfall, because it's not pure guesswork, but it really is, right? The aperture is so small, it's truly a pinhole. And you got to figure out, okay, what's the light? I'm going to guess. And then you just guess. And I can wrap my head around that. Light leaks are cool, you know. Yeah, but like, you know, technically, because of course, like in the photography world, like guys, not guys, but people like, you know, like you go to a photography meeting and everyone's like giving you all the technical lingo. What's your lens? What's your kit? What's the, you know, and it kind of cracks me up, but it really is that one person who can use all that and then take it to the next step in their mind. They're like, you know, like I'm going to take this and go here with it. Maybe I'll turn my lens backwards and use it as a fisheye lens and then turn it forwards and then rack the lens. Creativity, always say, if you need to loosen up, nothing ever cool created was ever staying the same. So we know how to create a beautiful aperture. What was that club? 64? What was that used to be called? Ansel Adams. Oh gosh, I forget. yeah, yeah. But like, you know, land cameras and, you know, f64 and two minute exposure on a, you know, eight by 10 plate. That's a gorgeous photo, right? But then Ansel Adams took it to a whole different space and he took it and burned and dodged and he was like our first Photoshopper and he really just learned how to take that negative and make it something else. Yeah, the whole zone approach. Yeah. like It really is like there's no judgment. just is, you know, oh you can't be like, that's been part of my problem aging sometimes is like, I'm out of sync with failing. I need to fail more. I haven't had enough time with my own self and I'm not allowing myself enough space to fail. That's why this mural has been sitting here forever and I'm revealing it because it just needs to happen and need to release it. ah That's an interesting perspective. As you get older, you have less opportunities to fail. So I think it's more important now more than ever to put ourselves in uncomfortable new situations. So we have those opportunities because that's growth. And breakthrough. So that's so. Yeah, yeah. my way. That's a theme for people our age, our generation. Yeah, for sure. Make yourself uncomfortable and keep growing. It's one of those deals though. I think it's almost like we've always been uncomfortable. That's what I was thinking, I saying that to Whitney, right? It's people are always uncomfortable. We grew up being uncomfortable. It's almost like I just want to be comfortable. Yeah, but I don't think we can. I think we get antsy. It's not in our DNA. It's boring. I would agree. And you get segment and we've been such a productive generation that it just goes against everything. It's I find that I've had to train myself just to be because doing I'm great at. I can do all day long. But in the last few years, I've had to learn how to just be. And that's been the skill I'm working on as I'm aging is to. balance being with doing because we're always we've always been doing. We've always been productive. But then also when I do make sure it's a value and it's giving something back to me and nourishing my soul. And I'm not just doing to get things done. It's my time to actually do something meaningful that honors what I want. And that's the first time to which is uncomfortable. Yeah, just set down the rag and turn around and not clean. And one of the most challenging things has been in my art studio. you know, Jeff is always like, where are you in there more? Blah, blah, blah. First, I'm exhausted when I come home from work. But this is my place of residence too. So I'm used to cleaning and cooking. And I will find a closet to clean before I get in here. I will find the stairs to clean before I get in here. And it has been rough. to set those things down. And that's why I do better sometimes when I go to like these camps, I force myself to go to like summer art camps and I create like a whole body of work in a week. And I'm like, I have this gorgeous space in my house and I can't even produce it. it's, it's just the habits. It's just very bad. It's also life changing too. It's just having to set it down. Yes. And it's because also your other job, taking care of your home, you've been doing for the last 30 years. it's hard to your other office is there. Your studio is within your office. So and it's that feeling of once I get everything in the office taken care of, then I can go enjoy the studio. But we've always done that exchange, right? That deal making with ourselves. can have. I know I heard that. I heard that too. the chickens are done with the potatoes and carrots as I'm sitting here. I heard you say that and I thought she freaking cooked before she did this episode. Yes. Yes, because it's an exchange too. We were like, well, I'll relax. You got to earn your relaxation. You got to earn your enjoyment. Once you get all the things in order, then you can go and do the thing. And that is the shift that Gen X women have to work hard on is being like, it's one of the reasons I will not do an Airbnb. Like my family will say to us, no. because there's a kitchen and there's a washer and dryer there. And I'm going to be doing the same thing I do at this house. I want a hotel with a room service. I want I am not making a bed because that's the only way I can be on vacation because I, you know, boundaries. So but I think giving yourself permission to go in to the studio, even when all the other shit in the other in your office is falling apart is so hard, and I can so relate to that. I can so relate to that. But we deserve it. And we would tell our best friend, they deserve it. But we got to your kids, or the dog, or anybody before me. I know, that's awful. It is, and on that note, okay, so this will be about you. My last question is always, where do you see yourself in five years? Okay. I see myself just doing more art. um I'm applying for my PhD in painting. So through that, I hope to discover more of myself and just be in museums and showing and traveling. You know, maybe a grandma, maybe a grandbaby on my hip. oh You better let me know when that happens and I'll let you know. I'd like to either write a book. I started writing a book, uh maybe have that published. I really, really, really would like my photos to be pulled into a museum of meaning somewhere that they could do some good. I don't know, just learn to be a better human every day. I think that's great. Five years, it's like, I'll be 58. It almost kind of like, it doesn't freak me out, but I hope I've traveled to some cool places and have been kind enough to people. um But I'd really, really hope to create, keep going, create better art, maybe direct some things. Maybe we can go direct small films there, Brian. There you go. I can technically film. I think. a DP of a filmmaker, for a director of photography for a movie is so similar to just, you're already doing it. It's just you would do it with moving images, right? That's true. Yeah. already do it. So. I think that's a great vision. What you're talking about, the PhD is exciting. Well, yeah, I'm excited for that. mean, I don't need a PhD, but like the more credits I earn, better my salary is. um But it's also kind of a double whammy to triple whammy. I'm the first woman in my family to have a college degree on my mom's side. Yeah, so I'll be the first woman if I get a PhD. um Plus also, it'll help me if I retire from teaching. I could maybe teach at a college. um I really enjoy teaching. I um enjoy the exchange. um But it also is like, when you study your PhD, get to like, in a way, as you can see, I'm so diversified in my thoughts. Like, oh, I'll do photography this week and dancing next week. And sometimes why I like school. for me is it focuses me, it keeps me focused. like, I would have never created these photos without going to uh a class about learning about it. um So like the PhD will help me focus like in an area of topic that I wanna actually study. And you have to study it for like six years. It's a long haul, but I'm ready and I have the space to do it, so. Did you already apply? I'm applying, it just opened, I'm applying to one school in Ireland actually right now just to see. I have to do it online because it's like I'm here but their program in Ireland seems pretty reputable. The States actually does not have necessarily a PhD in actual physical art making and I want to be an art maker. Mm-hmm. um So I want somewhere in Europe they tend to have those programs. So yeah, let's go to Ireland. It is. It is. Yeah. Well, listen, Coco, we can't thank you enough for sharing your story with us. for having me. feel so humbled. I love all that you have going on. I think it's awesome. I love the creativity and the hard work, the throwing yourself out to directing things, right? It's crazy. But that's awesome. It's like, a challenge way to just keep challenging yourself and pushing through. have tackled life. inspirational. I know that our listeners will listen to this and be like, wow, all right, I can do this. I got it. Why not? No, it's inspirational for sure. There's no question. Yeah, DM me, I'll send you motivation. You know, I really honestly always have felt like my mom says, you've always had opportunities, but I really feel like life will show you the opportunities. You just gotta kinda step towards it. You know, life will give it to you. You gotta like make it happen. So. just said, you've tackled life like everything that's been thrown at you. You've taken on and done all the things and absorbed so much of life, but then also turned around and given so much back. So talk about the ebb and flow and the ocean and the back and forth. You've lived that way. And em I have no doubt you're going to continue to live that way. And your five year vision is going to happen. And Again, like Brian said, I think there's so many listeners that will be inspired by your story. I think there's a lot of artists out there or people who want to be an artist but are maybe scared to try that or feel insecure about it. And I think you're going to help give them the courage to follow that authentic path in their soul. And not just for artists, but for all of us to tap into that creative part of us, because it's there, we all have it. And even like you said, it can be used in any industry in some way. Civit can. And I think it's been shushed and it needs to be woken up in all of us to some degree. you know, I it's important. And again, to our listeners, once we get Coco's um social media and our website, she's kind of changing up some things right now. But once we get that, we will update our show notes so you know where to find her. You know where to see her work. and about her em one woman show and anything else that she's doing, directing, all the other things. We'll make sure that all that information is in the show notes once we have it. And again, thank you so much for spending so much time with us. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Love you. Miss you. uh this was great. We're going to catch up more once we stop recording. But to our listeners, um as always, if you have any comments or questions for Brian and I, oh, we'll see the other kitty cat. Now we got to see both the kitty cats. But feel free to leave any questions or comments for us and we'll get back to you and we will see you next time. Bye. baby