Welcome to GenX Adulting and today we have with us Dr. Amber Parks, the stress and burnout coach. Welcome Amber. Thank you. Thank you for having me. We're so happy that you're here. Our first question is always, what year were you born? Yes, I was born in 1983, so I'm on the cusp. would say, yeah, yeah, I don't always identify fully with the millennial. Yes, yes, yep. And you're also called a xennial Yeah, that I agree, a little bit of both. Yes. So you have siblings that are older than you? have an older, she's my half sister, but she's 13 years older. So, and yeah, as I've gotten older, we've gotten closer. So I think that's part of it too. Yeah, because I find that um older millennials who had older siblings who are Gen X, like right in Gen X um or older Gen X, they do relate more with the Gen X childhood experience and with they lean more in Gen X than they do them. What you think of a millennial now? Yeah. And where were you born? I was born in Worcester, Massachusetts. It's about 45 minutes outside of Boston. Okay. And were your parents from there? Was your family from there? Yeah, so my mom is from a small town just south of Worcester. My dad was from the North Shore, so north of Boston. that's, mean, most of my family is still there. I'm in Florida now. So I'd say 98 % of them are still there. You don't have an accent. That's what I was thinking. So it's funny you say that because I went to vet school in Alabama and I don't know what happened. And then I moved to Florida, I started practicing and people would be like, are you from Canada? More than five people have told me that. And so I was like, I don't know what happened. I started up there, something happened on the way down. But when I go back, I have friends that are like, you pick it up very quickly when you're around your family. Yeah, and you probably have certain words that still you have an accent with I think I heard when you said sure I heard it there Yeah, Brian's from Jersey, but he's from like the northwest corner of Jersey They don't really have they only have certain words like coffee dog, but his mom's from Hoboken So she's got yeah, but I remember when I met him I was like, you don't sound, cause I'm from Oregon. And so everyone from Oregon thought that everyone sounded like people from Hoboken. If you're from New Jersey, that you sound like that or like New Yorkers. So when I met him, I was like, you don't sound like you're from New Jersey, but you're, you're close to Boston. So I would have thought you definitely, you know, so is your family all have the accent? Oh yeah, like even my parents now live in Florida and they still like, my dad will say stuff and I'm like, it's, there's no R at all if there's an R in the word and when there isn't an R then he adds one in. So it's like Tampa is like tamper. I'm like, what? That's like a verb. Like it's not a city. That's amazing. Our son, his roommate's from Boston and he he has he'll he has it on, I think every other word. Yeah. You know, it's it's I think he embraces it. And he's Irish, Boston, redhead, like full Boston. You know, he cracks me up. Yeah. So how did your parents meet? They met through a mutual friend actually. And I honestly, trying to think back, it's been so long since I've heard the story, but it was a mutual friend and it was closer to where my mom lived. think they, um cause that mutual friend actually still lives a couple of towns over from where I grew up too. So yeah. You know how old they were when they met? Um, yeah, they, my mom was probably around 29 30 and my dad was around 31 32. Um, because they got married. They're gonna love this. I would just, they probably won't listen to this. I don't know if they'll listen to a podcast, but so I was born in 83, April of 83. My parents got married in October of 82. So you can do the math there. And so my Dad's mom was very violent book, very like religious everything. So when I was born, she told people that I was a premature baby. Because, God forbid, my mom was pregnant at the wedding and my mom was like, she told me years later, she's like, I was so dumb. I just didn't even think like, why would she say that? But now, yeah, but so yeah, it was so odd. That's hilarious. Okay, and then you said you have a half-sister who's 13 years older, so did she come with your dad's daughter or your mom's daughter? mom's daughter and her dad wasn't really in her life that much. And so when my parents got together, she was like around 12, 13. And when they got married, my dad was her dad essentially. So he walked her down the aisle when she got married and he actually was gonna adopt her officially, but then she turned 18 and it's like, meh, it is what it is, but that's her dad, yeah. So was that your mom's second marriage? Okay. Okay. So they're married. um They have you and they have a 12, 13 year old in the house. Okay. So um through elementary school and junior high, did you call junior high or middle school? Okay. I think you called it middle school and I called it junior high. did you? Okay. I always get that confused. um Did you do any extracurriculars or were you athletic or art or? definitely was not athletic. No, I played the alto saxophone in band. Yeah, I was like one of the only girls. Talk about, I'm definitely a daddy's girl. My dad loved jazz music and he's like, you know, when they, I think it's like fifth grade, they're like, hey, this is, you could be part of the band and play an instrument and like all the girls get like a clarinet or a flute. And I'm over there with like this. big saxophone. I left that thing everywhere. Like I forgot it at school. I forget it at home. I forgot it on the bus. It's like it was a size of me. So I did that for four years. It was cool though. Like I enjoyed it and I started playing field hockey when I got into high school. So I didn't play any sports until then, but I did a lot of like dancing, tap, jazz, ballet, point. I did that probably from like age like six or seven up until high school. Yeah. know if I know how dances now. I mean, if you're doing dance, that's what you're doing. Was it like that for you then? Yeah, and there was, I think it was around fifth grade, I was like, I want to do gymnastics, which is if you're in the dance world, dance and gymnastics like are totally separate. Like we don't really get along. They're just two different things. And so I went to gymnastics and the woman so kindly told me I was not flexible enough to be a gymnast. So I went back to dance next year. yeah, yeah. So your mom was a dance mom. Do you want my dad? Probably more so because my mom was an administrative assistant and my dad worked from home. So it was nice. was a, he was an accountant for many years, but then he was a mortgage broker all through like me growing up and going into college too. So he had a home office, which is great. If you get sick of school, your dad just picks you up and it, you know, so he was the one carting me around to dance. Yeah. That is awesome because now that's so normal, but that's a very unique experience because this would have been what the late eighties, early nineties, mid nineties. There weren't a lot of dads working from home and there weren't a lot of dads taking their daughters to dance. Yeah. it's, yeah, he reminds us all the time that like we're still very close. oh No, but it's really cool. um I'm sure that you have a very unique relationship with him because of that, because you had those extra moments with him that most kids in general, but daughters especially, don't get with their dads. That usually is traditionally a mom thing. So I think that's amazing. I think that's awesome. Yeah, and I laugh because I probably was somewhat of a tomboy growing up and I'm like, dad, you, did you want a son? Cause then you got me. But what was funny is that my dad grew up. So he grew up, you know, north of Boston, but he, his parents, my grandparents had a summer house up in New Hampshire on a lake. And so every summer from when I can remember, we would go up there many times during the summer. And so. but he was always boating, like sailing, boating. Like he'd been doing that since he was a young kid. So he really got into sailing, which is so funny because my mom like didn't even really know how to swim possibly. And yeah, so then they, ah my dad gets a sailboat and they have pictures of me when I was like an infant, like I was under a year old and I'm strapped into a car seat in the cockpit of this sailboat. like maybe 30 foot sailboat. And I remember asking my mom years later, was like, mom, what happened if like we tipped over? Like I don't have a life jacket. She goes, I don't know. I mean, we got distracted. she couldn't swim. Neither could you. You're both going. Honestly, though, there is your Gen X relation relating to a Gen X childhood. That's that part of that older millennial that totally got that Gen X treatment because that is a relatable thing. That's funny. Now, did your mom ever learn to swim? OK, good. OK. because my dad, like, I just remember growing up, many of the summers were spent on a sailboat. So like, was, I was the first mate, he was the captain. I guess my mom was the second mate, I was ahead of her, you know, but it was like, kind of a guy boyish thing, you know, to do that. uh but we, you know, I have like great, some scary memories, honestly. Hmm just being out on the water, but yeah, it was great. So I think that really solidified my dad and I's relationship too. Do you think, cause a lot of daughters are close with their dads, but do you think having that access? Cause that's what you had was full access to your dad. Do you think having that kind of access to your dad had a significant impact in your self-esteem as a girl and in, um, your self-respect as a girl and the expectations going into the dating world? Do you think, think it impacted that for you? That's interesting you ask. I would want to say yes, but I spent so many years working on my self-esteem and self-respect. So even though my dad and I have a great relationship, when it came to dating, I really was not, I guess I would say proactive. Like I was the one who would just be like quiet and just, oh, like if someone likes me, they come to me. Like I would never, you know, pursue someone and I think, which is interesting, because I've never really had like that negative experience with my dad whatsoever. um so I guess I, I wish that would have been a little bit different. But I think that was for somewhere, somewhere, how I had to go through that too. You know, because what, what I what about your half sister? Because she was older. So, well, you were really young when she was going through like her teenage years. So because I'm wondering how she approached dating because your dad entered her world at a formative time and it had impacted it. And she didn't really have a relationship with her biological father. Have you guys ever discussed that on how you guys have approached dating? Not specifically, but I remember, like she and I are different. She's very outgoing, extroverted, life of the party, you know, like she's so she doesn't have a problem just going out, you know, and meeting people. But I remember vaguely because, yeah, she moved out when I when she was 18. So I was still young, but she was dating. The person she was dating was actually ended up being her husband like years later. Now her ex-husband, but so I remember him and it was funny. My niece actually like a couple months ago, she said, well, my dad asked, is your aunt coming? I go, he said, your aunt? I said, he's known me since I was five. He knows my, you know, like, why would he say that? So it was just kind of funny, but so that's a. That's kind of what I remember of her dating and being in the house. But, you know, when she was 18, she went off to college and moved, you know, never moved home. Yeah. your mom, you're so you're both your mother's daughters. Is your mom more on the outgoing side or is she more reserved? I'd say she's a little more reserved, but I tell my sister all the time, I'm like, you and mom have a different relationship than I and my mom, because it was just a different time in her life. Like she had my sister when she was 17, and that was hard. And I think when my dad came in, my dad was really a rock, you know, for that whole thing. So then when I came into the picture, everything was a lot more steady than what it was for my sister. But I am very aware of that now, like when I see the dynamic. And also I think because of what I do now, I'm just hyper aware of it. But I try to tell, like they're more like sisters, honestly, in a way. Right, makes, and I wonder if they kind of trauma bonded, if there was some stuff going on, you know? And and you kind of more had that traditional leave it to beaver, married parents structure, your dad is super involved. That's really interesting. It's really cool you guys are close now as adults. yeah. So it was probably, let me see, was when we got closer, like she had my niece and nephew, they were born in 2001 and 2003. And I'm just not really a kid person, I'll be totally honest. And so they were, they were great kids. They were cute. My sister did an amazing job. Their dad was worked a lot. So was, you know, a lot of my sister being supposed to stay at home mom. and they joke, they're like, as they got older, I'm like, they're like real people now, you know, like I want to hang out with them. So they still say, they're like, you didn't like us, you didn't like kids, you don't want to hang out with us. And I was like, yeah, you're probably right. Like, I'm not even going to deny that, but now they're full-fledged adults and I, yeah, I adore them. I go up there and we visit, we go on vacation every year to Aruba, like if not other places. Yeah. Yeah. because they're in their 20s, right? Yeah. Yeah. my nephews will be 22 soon. Yeah. It's a great age. It's a fun age because we have a 28 year old and our daughter was born in 2000. So she's going to be 25. It's fun. And then we have the 15 year old. He's our bonus baby. But the 20s are it's a fun age. It is. It's fun to hang with, especially once they can start drinking legally. That's fun. Yes, so it was so funny. So my sister and I started really hanging out um and we're like, we're going to travel. And this was January of 2020. So we went to Nashville. We had an amazing time and we had all these trips planned and we know, you know, with the pandemic that kind of got squashed. we ended up, you know, once travel got back underway, we started traveling again. But my niece, we were like, hey, what do you want to do for your 21st birthday? And she goes, I want to go to Nashville because she heard all the fun we had. I'm like, okay. But she wants to go with her mom, her aunt and her grandparents. So we all went. It was so much fun. And my nephew wanted to go when he turned 21. So we went last year too. Yeah. that's the dream. That's the dream is if your kids or your nieces and nephews want to hang out with you when they're adults, there's nothing better than that. Yeah. You know, those are the best memories. must be the fun aunt. Yeah. know, well, yeah, on my sister's side, I'm the only aunt. So that's what I say. And I had a good job, I was making good money. So when they were in that age, I was just paying for everything. And so we joke, I'm like, so when I'm old and in a wheelchair, remember all the stuff I bought you? I know. buying the stuff. OK, so you're schlepping the saxophone on the bus. I'm just picturing this giant case because I I did the violin and that was enough of a headache and that was just this little case. So the sax, I can't even imagine. But you did that into junior high, which I'm impressed with that. That's commitment, because a lot of times in junior high kids get insecure. They're like, I'm not going to, you know, so the fact that you have you played it since? No, no, but what you'll see as we talk is I'm stubbornly ambitious. That's how I put it. Like it's great, but it's awful, right? Like you just, it was something that the biggest part wasn't so much as like actually playing. It was the fact that on like Memorial Day and Labor Day, there would be parades in the town. I grew up in a small town and you had to partake in that while playing. Like honestly, have you ever played an instrument and walked like in tandem with people? band. Yeah. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah. And it's for Massachusetts. It was wasn't used to it. It was hot. You know, I'm like, I don't want to. That's honestly the reason why I never continued it, because I didn't. I wanted to have a three day weekend. yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And then you got into high school, you did field hockey. Did you do anything else extracurricular? Was that pretty much? No, did that um freshman, sophomore, and junior year. And then my senior year, I was like, let me just get a job. And actually, if I'm going to be making visible, I'll at least be making money. So that's good old way, right? So, you through elementary, junior high and high school? How were academics? I a good student. I have to say like I'm not one of those people that looks at something once and I just know it like I had to work hard, but I was always on the honor roll. You know, always high honors usually for the most part, and that was pretty consistent. Although math was always a tough thing for me and my dad was like the numbers person, so I have. vivid memories of sitting in his office fighting, like yelling at each other about long division. Like it's still a joke in the family. And he like, helped me, but it was so easy for him. So now if I talk things like veterinary medicine, I'm like, dad, it's it's easy for me. You don't get it. You know. think there's so many of us who have those experiences where, you the child's crying, the parent is yelling, you have three apples. Three fucking apples. And then, you know, it's just a shit show. Yeah, I think by our third, Brian was like, Tudor, I don't care what it costs. I can't do this again. It's like I can't. I can't emotionally put myself. Me and him threw it. So you said you got a job senior year. What was your job? Was that your first job? It was, I had a job before that working like, it was almost like a dick sporting good. I just worked for the summer, but my senior year I got a job at a veterinary hospital as a like assistant tech thing. That was, yeah, it was traumatizing, but it was good. That's random, like that's not what most high schoolers get a job doing. Why that? I already knew I wanted to go to vet school and be a vet. so that really, I knew that for a couple of years. So before the internet, it was a newspaper ad. And I think my dad was like, look at, I found an ad. And I was like, those, you know, the most stressful thing when you just don't know what you're doing, going in for an interview. And, ah but yeah, I worked there for five years after that. wow. So what made you what was that moment? Or do you know the moment that you decided that's what you want to do? Because that would have been what, like sophomore year, freshman, sophomore year in high school? Yeah, I even think it probably was planted a few years before that. My grandfather, my dad's father, was sick my entire life. I think he probably passed when I was about 13 or 14. And they actually didn't think that he would live to see me be born. So to live another like 12 or 13 years. And he had like these really weird health things. They actually had, he had had a lot of respiratory things, but in Massachusetts, he would go to Mass General Hospital, so amazing hospital. And his doctor told my dad, he's like, I will never send you a bill because whatever he has is such a great learning opportunity for the other doctors. Like he was that patient. You don't want to be that patient, but he was. So he actually had an infection and they took out one of his lungs. So he has one lung. the other side, but the craziest thing is he a hole in his right under kind of his armpit area into his chest cavity. Like he was- From his skin into the chest cavity or? could see in like because my, had to, he had a chronic like infection. So they had to irrigate and flush all of the debris. And so the only way to do that, the lung was diseased. They took the lung out. And so like now looking back, I wish I would have looked in a little bit further at what was in the hole, but it was like into the chest cavity because the other lung, actually, there's it's separated. So they're, not one big thing. um But my grandmother took care of him forever and he had to irrigate that area. That's what they called it like twice a day, so she would literally flush. You know a couple cups if you will of into a syringe into the area and you would have to lean back over and it came out. So I'm watching this as a kid and I remember going to so this probably actually started many years before because I went to. think it was like a farm for school and they're showing us the plants and the irrigation. So of course, being a kid, raising my hand, I'm like, I know irrigation, my grandfather gets irrigated. sure that, sure my parents appreciated that. Was this his whole life, like from the time he was born or did it hit him when he was an adult? Yeah, it hit him when he was an adult. worked, when he was younger, he had worked like in a factory. So I think there was a lot of, and you know, back then everyone smoked and it wasn't a big deal. So it was, they call it empyema, not emphysema, empyema. that's, there's a, like a bacterial infection is the primary component. Now looking back, I wish I knew more about it. But when they took that out, he also had a hole in his esophagus just from having chronic issues all in that area. So they had to put a mesh. Yeah, this poor guy had to put a mesh into his esophagus. at night he had a feeding tube and so he would get hooked up to like, like a pump. looked like an IV pump. So when I was a little kid, I'd shake the little inshore bottles to put into the thing. Now I realize how not normal this is. This is definitely why I went into this. is what it is, though. Yeah, you didn't know. Yeah. So yeah. Because how old would he have been? Was he like in his 50s when this was happening? Was he more elderly? yeah, he was probably early 70s at this point. um Yeah, I think probably around that age because you know they had that house on the lake and I remember being like he could never go swimming because he has a hole in his thigh. oh That's wild. mean, in being in Boston, though, at least that's sort of the Mecca of medical, you know, in innovation and curiosity. So they probably did enjoy it and did probably prolong his life, actually. Yeah, for sure. mean, yeah, 13, 12, 13 years, which I mean, towards the end, you know, it's like, all right, this quality of life probably isn't that great. And I mean, when you're getting Percocets shipped to your house, because you take so many before the whole. Yeah. Would you visit when he was in the hospital? Would you visit him? all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So I got really comfortable with that. So that probably sparked it all, right? As far as maybe going into something medical. Yeah, because, you know, no one really likes to to hospital, but it was like the machines and the stuff and then like I was like fascinated by that. I always thought it was, I wasn't, and maybe because it was normalized for me too, there wasn't the scare thing. It was just, oh, Gramps in the hospital again. Like, all right, we'll get in the car and go. So it definitely normalized it. Yeah. Did you get to know like the nurses and doctors or did they know you? No, I don't. I don't remember. And I think it's because he was in there frequently in different floors, depending on what was going on. So yeah, looking back, I almost wish I had like his medical records because I think it'd be really interesting to kind of see what that was. But I do remember bits and pieces. So you knew. the medical bug was sparked. But when did you know you wanted to go into veterinary medicine? Because that's very different than what your green flow is going through. Yeah. um Well, I always loved animals, right? Everyone that's a vet says this, but I, at one point when I really was interested in the medical side, I was like, I want to be a pediatrician. I have no idea where that came from. I wasn't like, I'm not really into kids. I think we've established that would not have worked for you. That's right. I want to get in. I hate kids. I like animals. m funny is that pediatricians, we always kind of laugh because their patients don't speak either. So they're actually a little similar. So it was getting into animals. And I always had a dog and a cat growing up. I mean, I remember when I got my first dog, I was five years old. My parents got it me for my birthday. I remember going to get it. So like that is very vivid. So there was always that love there. And then when I kind of was like, oh, I can these are two things that I really enjoy. So that's where I really was interested. And then when that job got posted, it was like, all right, how interested are you? So what was the job for specifically? Was it just like a not a tech, right? Because you have to go to school even to be a tech. What were you doing? Yeah, thank you for that. You do have to go to school back then. I was attacked. It was it was all encompassing, so it's fun you say that because there's a there's a big debate in the veterinary community because some states require certification for our technicians, not every state. And you know the ones that don't you can go to a veterinary hospital like oh, she's attacked and I will talk about it too. But when I went to relief work, I'm like like. Like a real, like, I don't know what your experience is. So the job that I had was, it was a tech, but I was receptionist and then I helped in the treatment area. And then, I mean, when I worked there, after working there for a couple of years, it was, it was a very dysfunctional hospital. was a big, I mean, there were six doctors, so it was busy, but yeah, I, after working there for a couple of years, then if they hired someone new, they would have me train them. I'm like, I'm 20. What am I training people, you know? And uh yeah, so it was, it was traumatic, but I learned so, so, so much just kind of being thrown into the mix like that. Right, because did they expect you to do actual help with actual medical procedures on animals when you like your senior year in high school? I mean, they trained me. We really focused like they had boarding. So doing the kennel and cleaning, which I was fine with. And the front desk stuff actually is like one of the hardest things. You're dealing with people and you have to know a lot of stuff. So they trained me and I learned by rapid fire, I guess, as well, kind of on the job. But I would come back of random weekends when I was in college. It was about little, maybe hour, hour and a half away from my work to my school. So I would come home for the weekend, work at the veterinary hospital and then go back to college. Yeah. Well, it's a hospital too, though, not your normal neighborhood vet, right? So there's a little more action. Okay. use them kind of interchangeably, but this one was now looking back. They were open seven days a week. They were open till 9 PM like they were a busy hospital with six doctors. that. Yeah, that's almost almost like a emergency vet, kind of like other than that middle of the night. OK, so you're in your senior in high school. You're working as a tech. And then, did you know where you wanted to apply for college? And did you do all of that on your own or did you have did your parents help you with that? Or did you have help at school from like a college counselor? Were you kind of just doing it all on your own? So my dad being, he went to college and my mom didn't go to college. So my mom was kind of like, this is your thing. And my dad being pretty hands-on, we get like back then it's like this big, thick book of like all the schools with all this, we're just kind of like going through that, right? And you buy them, but then the next year you have to buy new ones because they're not up to date. ah something. Yeah. And that was a lot. Well, maybe 60 bucks. Well, yeah, I remember that though. Yeah. so we would, so I went through that, but I knew what schools were local that had a veterinary or pre-vet program because you could go in any direction. You could do biology or pre-vet or zoology or, you know, you can kind of go in any direction. And I'm like, I don't want to go to school for four years with like a biology degree. I want to like do stuff that I'm interested in. So that really narrowed it down to, I applied to URI, University of Rhode Island. UMass Amherst, University of Massachusetts Amherst, University of Maine. I don't know what I was thinking. I'd be so cold up there. It was already cold enough. And I think it was Fairfield University in Connecticut. And I got accepted to all of them. And yeah, I went to University of Massachusetts Amherst. I had a great pre-vet program. So. so you're in a pre-vet program, so it's still an undergraduate four-year degree, but it's focused right from the start on veterinary medicine. That's great. That's great. And then you're saying you came home, did you come home every weekend to work? No, probably like once a month. You know, just enough to take a break from drinking. I just got home. did you live in the dorms your freshman year? Yeah, yeah, I did. I actually lived with my best friend from middle school. We both went to the same school, obviously, but we weren't planning to live together. We thought we were going to live in like in a suite and we ended up somehow being roommates. And we're kind of like, I didn't really want that. Like we wanted to have each other, but not be roommates. And so we lived together our first year. And then the second semester of my first year, I moved. a little bit closer to like a group of friends. kind of like parted a little bit. We were still friends, but we found our own friend group, essentially. That's cool. So you were allowed to move out of the dorms spring of freshman year? I, it was like a fall semester. did the whole semester in one, and then you can like apply to move for the next semester. And so, but it's still kind of a crapshoot because you don't know what you're going to get, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So then you moved kind of off campus for your spring. still in the dorms, just a different dorm. And a little bit, but like, goth lover, she's a great person, but like, she wasn't very experienced in drinking, nor was I truthfully, but I was having to take care of her being drunk. And so, I mean, it's, I wasn't much better, but I guess it was a little bit more sober than she was. And so we just kind of got on our nerves. We knew each other so well. I'd known her since second grade. But she also kind of found her group of people and I did in my pre-vet too. So it was kind of like a mutual branching. I still talk to her nowadays, to this day, but I think so. the Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you did the dorms the first year and then and then would you come home in the summers and work at the hospital? Yeah, yeah, so work there. And then my sophomore year I lived in the dorms, but I moved to another part of campus that was more of the party area. So U-Bass Amherst, like my class had about 5,000 people in it and this was in 2002. So it was that was just my class. So then and then they had a graduate program. So yeah, it was probably 25, 30,000 kids that went there. Kids. yes. uh So the area that I lived in was called Southwest and the Southwest part of campus and it had four high rises. So these high rises had 18 floors and so there's four of them. So it's like a city and I moved into one of those with my friend from my pre-vet program and we lived there for the whole year, which was did some drinking then. 100%. almost sounds like it was kind of like living in an apartment more than the year prior, right? was a little more apartment kind of living or off quote unquote off campus, even though it wasn't a little bit different. it was definitely more city-like. You're on campus and had to walk, but everything was right there. I'm really impressed that you were able to still have that traditional party college experience while you're in veterinary school. Because I know for myself, I just got a degree in humanities with a minor. I think I got it focusing on early childhood education, minor in Spanish, and I barely got that. I didn't realize that. Yeah, I I'm just impressed. I'm impressed you balanced that. this is pre-vet. So this is my undergrad. So this is, I know four years. and chemistry and stuff like that, it's hard stuff. Yeah, physics, which I use that every day. Physics, chemistry, biochem, organic chemistry. If you ask anyone in a profession, everyone's got a story about organic chemistry. It's literally the worst. yeah, and that was a big party school too. that was, and that was my first, my second week of school was 9-11. wow. Okay. a freshman, this is in 2001, it was, you know, that all of the changes that come with that too. And we didn't know, like we're in Western Mass, so we're kind of close to New York City. And there, you you hear rumors and people are like, well, we're kind of worried that, you know, these high rises now in the Southern part of campus might be, you know, a target. I'm like, what? So. did how did life change for you? Let's say that week, did they cancel classes? m They did. I remember going to an English class having no idea what was going on. It was like 8 30 in the morning and we all got in there. They're like classes canceled. You know, the twin towers in New York City were hit. I'm like, what? So like, you know, we go back to the dorms and I remember everyone had their doors open. Everyone's TV was on. You could just walk down the hall and just hear every TV. I think it was at least a couple of days because a lot of this, not a lot, but there was a decent amount of students from New York. and New York City that went to that school too. So it was uncharted territory for sure. Yeah, it's interesting because we were in Jersey then and so I think the whole tri-state area but also well, yeah that includes Massachusetts, right? I always think Pennsylvania near Well, we have a love-hate relationship with Massachusetts. Let's not bring baseball into it. Well, just sports in general, but there's a mutual respect and you know, as much as we may have that love-hate, the love is strong. and so is the heat, Especially during that time, I think just that whole Northeast, yeah. The whole Northeast, we all kind of, I always tell people it felt like a small town, that whole Northeast corner when 9-11 happened. We were just kind of together because somebody's family member was affected somehow. It just kind of traveled, it trickled out, and then it was all very patriotic, you know, for a long time after. So then, You guys were off for a little bit and then you that's your freshman here away from home for the first. Did you go home while you were off? no, I don't think so. I don't remember doing that. I think school, like the classes resumed not too long after that. I think they wanted like some sort of normalcy, you know. that makes sense. So as far as balancing the being just that college life and also pre-vet, um but that's still had to require a significant amount of dedication and hard work. I mean, were you working your ass off and burning the candle at both ends to pull that off? That's the only way I do it. That's why I'm in the position I'm in. Yeah, it was one of those things that it's not, like there was no other option. There was no option B. Like I just didn't see anything else that I ever wanted to do. Like this is what I want to do. And so I'm going to do it, but I'm going to, you know, have all my blood, sweat and tears on the way to do that. So yeah, there was a lot of... there's a lot of stress in the moment because you're just now preparing, it's kind of like high school, you're preparing to apply to college, so you're trying to get good grades. Now you're in college and you're trying to get good grades to apply to vet school. So it's just like that snowball, it just never stops. And you're competitive with your classmates too. And even the pre-vet program at UMass was pretty small at the time. There was... There's, my degree is in animal science, but I had a pre-vet concentration. So there were some people that did animal science, but they didn't want to apply to vet school. So we're in a lot of the same classes, but they, you know, weren't going to apply to vet school. So like, you knew the people that were going to, be your competition essentially. Is it more competitive than say the traditional medical route, like human medical? It is, right? I've heard that. It's very hard to become a vet actually. Yeah, I so what's interesting is it was I don't remember the demographics. It's kind of changed a little bit or the statistics, but I think it was for like every maybe 15 to 20 people that apply. There's one person that gets accepted. Yeah, wow, this is hyper competitive. Why is that? Is it because they don't need as many vets in the world as doctors? oh Well, so it's funny because that's changing too. At the time there was only 28 vet schools, which there's, I don't know how many medical schools, but there's hundreds at least. Yeah. And so there's not many spots. And then in the U S there's certain like I'm in Florida now, but university of Florida. So if you live in state, you can apply there. But if you have a, if you live in a state that doesn't have a vet school, like you're not. you're kind of at a disservice because some of them have, you know, like a contract with other states, but not all of them do. But living in Massachusetts, we had Tufts, but Tufts was really difficult to get into. I had to get into Tufts. And it was, you yeah, you have to, the application process is just a nightmare because you have a uh nationwide application that actually that point was online, but then every school had a different application to do it in addition. So you I remember going to I always had to like go to the post office. This was like my senior year and I still have like traumatic memories. I hate going to the post office to this day because I'm like I just need to mail this and like did you get this? Did you fill this out? You're going to get certified. I'm like I don't know what that means up going to get back in line like so yeah it's. Just that was tough. No. They're not the nicest people either. No, don't say that. We have nice ones. I'm with her. I remember going to the post office. I like our post people. Gotta follow the rules. Well, yeah, they want to make sure gets there. yeah, think too at that point, mean, I probably would sympathize with them because they probably have a bunch of it's in a college town. They just have a bunch of college students that are absolutely fucking clueless coming in there. drunk already. that's like. Yeah. So you're going through the first four years. It's so interesting. actually have never thought about that. My dad was a doctor, but I've never thought about this, that like for us, we just got our undergraduate. So we had the four years and we knew there's a graduation and there's an end. And it's very personal, right? Like my degree, I'm not in competition with anyone for a humanities degree. Let's be real. So it's like, this is a very personal, it was psychology. Like that's a very personal experience. It's not like we're trying to earn our place on the team. So we're always every day having to do our best to keep, hold our spot. But for you, you are constantly aware of your, need to get your spot. need to get your spot. And there's a continuation after these four years. And if you don't do well in these first four years, you're not going to get that spot. That pressure, your perspective of your first four years has to be different than the rest of us who just went those four years for sure. Yeah, because you it is it's like you're just moving the finish line, you know, where you you're like, it's kind of there, but it's going to get moved or hopefully it moves and you get into school. And, you know, it was challenging, too, because you're you have a lot of competition, which is the people that you've spent four years with in, you know, all your classes as well. And but I loved it. Honestly, my my my dad told me he's like, this will be the best four years of your life going to college. I'm like. because you were crazy probably in college. like you had great, you didn't have to, you didn't go to school after that. But he was right. Like I have a lot of awesome memories. I think it was a great, fantastic school. And somehow I pulled off a uh graduating cum laude. I don't know how, but it did. Yeah. Yeah. um Given the age gap between you and your sister, were you semi only childish growing up with a lot of attention and maybe extra expectations at all? I think so. Definitely the somewhat of the like only child thing, but the expectations, it's funny because now like going through therapy and all that stuff. I'm like, I don't like a lot of the expectations, oddly enough, were from school. Like my mom didn't go to college. So she already was like, you get A's, you're great. You know, my dad was like, all right, keep it up. And so there was some expectation there, but I really think it came from, like, remember more from like even elementary school and having a lot of expectations, which honestly now is probably like, thank you. Thank you for doing that. But. Yeah. So I wonder if that's like a Boston thing. Cause you know, Boston, you're it's an academic part of the country for sure. The world, right? I wonder if it's that's in play. Just high expectations for you to be smart. And if you show that you're halfway smart, they probably it feeds itself. If you're, if you're a dumb ass and then they shuffle you away. Right. Well, and look at all this shit that I can't even imagine the teachers nowadays and what they go through. It's insane that they still show up and do their job. But I lived in a small town. It was like 3,000 of us, 3,000 people that lived in the town. so my high school graduating class was 95 people. It was small. So they probably had the ability to actually give everyone that attention too. you got that attention. then, um when did you know, were you applying to stay at UMass Amherst for vet school? So they don't have a vet school. Yeah. So I applied to Tufts, which is in Grafton, which is actually the next town over from where I grew up in Massachusetts. I applied to Tufts, University of Florida, Tuskegee, and maybe University of Pennsylvania because one of the doctors I worked with, actually the doctor that owned the practice, he went to UPenn and I was like, okay, great. Now put him down as a recommendation. ah I didn't get into any of those other ones. got into Tuskegee, but I was waitlisted at first. So you go for an interview. was like February of my senior year. You go for an interview and I don't know what the hell to expect. I've never done this before. Now looking back, I'm sure it's changed, but the interview process was honestly like, we don't care what your answer is. We just don't want you to go back. Like a lot of it was ethical questions. Like if you were faced with this, pet that was dying and you could save it. But, I'm like, you know, and it's like, okay, so then you made this choice. Well, why wouldn't you do this? And they want to know that you would just stay with your answer. I guess that was really what it came down to. I didn't know that, but I got wait-listed. And so I didn't find out it was May. I was graduating in a couple of weeks and I'm like, all right, well, I don't have a backup plan. So. what's going on here? So I was thinking about applying to Tufts, to Bork to be as a tech. That wasn't really a tech. And I was like, I guess that's what I'll do. And I'll just go get my master's or work there for a year and then reapply. And it was like a Monday night. I got a phone call from, I guess it was the dean of the school at the time. And it was like eight o'clock at night. And was like, hi, is this so and so? Just why I'm like, why is this person calling me? You know, and he's like, I want to offer you a position or a spot in our upcoming class for Tuskegee University for a class in 2009. I was like, what? Yes, 100%. I'm probably gonna cry right now thinking about it because it was. Tuskegee University, it's in Alabama, so. okay. So my parents were traveling at the time. So fun fact, my senior year, they sold our house and got in their sailboat and just sailed to Florida, like sailed down the whole East Coast. senior year of college? Okay. So that's, mean, that makes sense. was going to say if you're senior in high school, kids still like to keep coming home while they're at college. You know what I mean? And see your friend like that. But then by senior college, that's, that's probably okay. Right? Like when you're four years, it's okay to let the house, I'm sure it was still an adjustment and everything, a big adjustment, but Okay, it was your college year. So they they fill the house and they're like, we're gonna go be up D and S stairs in a sailboat. Yeah, and my dad, so my grandfather had passed away at the time and my already and my dad's mom was still living in the North Shore and he's an only child. So he's like, feel bad just leaving her. And so he moved her closer to where we live in like South of Worcester and we bought a house and we all live there because that was a great idea, dad. So. My senior year, I'm like schlepping all my stuff to this house that I guess I have a room in now and my parents have a room, but they're not there because they're on the sailboat. And my grandmother, who this was also the one that I was a preemie baby, if we remember back to the beginning. Just a lovely lady, but her expectations for certain things were so old, you know, like she just from a different generation and my dad could do no wrong, like he was perfect. And so it was challenging to live with her because I think she was going through some like the beginning of maybe dementia or he wasn't taking care of my grandfather because he had passed away. So she like didn't know what to do with herself. So she got very nitpicky. So that was challenging. And through vet school, that was my house that I essentially went home to. So Now I'm 21 and I'm going out drinking with my friends and I'm coming home at night. I'm like, this is worse than my parents. Like my parents weren't bad at all. And now if my grandmother, I'd like like tip toe off the stairs. Like it was, it was, yeah. My dad was like, I don't know why did this. were you living there while you were in school or just when you would come home for like holidays and stuff? Or was that your home? Yeah, just so I would come home for holidays because Tuskegee is in Alabama, so I would drive all the way back to, yeah, yeah. so then when you went to vet school. I have a question. Okay. So you got the call from the Dean. Were you still in school or was it like you've got in and you need to be here next week? Or did you have summer? Okay. was like not maybe not even two weeks before graduation. Yeah. that's like right before graduation. So then um did you live in dorms for vet school? Is that more everyone lives in apartments like? So this is fun. uh So I get into vet school and I call my parents, they're traveling. Actually, I think they were driving at this time because I'm like, what are you guys doing? They're like, we're driving. I think they're in like Maryland somewhere. And I'm like, I just have to tell you that, you know, and I told them and they were like freaking out and that's awesome, whatever. And I'm like, yep. So dad, I'm going to go to vet school in Alabama and I'm going to live in a trailer. And fun fact, if you don't know Tuskegee is a historically black. college, HBCU, Historically Black College University. My dad's like, what? Like, what? Like, they're not prejudiced, but it's like, we're from Massachusetts, and I'm going to send my daughter what? Like, it's, it's, we've never been to the state. It's a whole different world. So, um, we, they ended up keeping the boat, but they got to Florida and really liked it. So they bought a house down here and they bought that house the summer before I started vet school. So it was, it was still seven hours away. but it was closer. So that was like my. is it? Is it south or? It's actually like a little bit northeast of Montgomery, like 30 minutes northeast of Montgomery. And it's right over the border from Georgia. So like, if you're going to fly anywhere, you would fly into Atlanta. And it's probably about a... Definitely a lot of just room, you know, like coming from just a condensed area up in the Northeast. But I remember being like, even the ATMs are a little bit slower here. Like the gas pumps even a little bit slower. You know, it's just like a different place. Yeah. probably wasn't that far from she's like above Tallahassee, probably. Well, we drove by that area coming down from Birmingham down kind of towards Montgomery. Yeah, we got stranded. It pretty. What was the hurricane last summer? We got stranded in Pittsburgh, got a flight to Charlotte. Charlotte got us to Birmingham and then what they American just dropped us off. They're like, you're on your own. Yes. So we drove all the way down to Miami to get our car. It was pretty though. OK, so wait, you have the grandma is still up in Massachusetts in the one house. The parents of another house in Florida and you're in Alabama. Are you so you were you the summer before you started vet school? Did you stay with them in Florida or you said no, you were up in Massachusetts? Yeah, I was still working at that uh veterinary hospital. So I worked there for the summer. And then when I moved down for vet school, so in Alabama, in this area, if you ever heard of Auburn University, that's obviously a huge football. I lived in Auburn and Tuskegee is like two towns away. So everyone lives in a trailer in like a, yeah, single wide or double wide, which. uh affluent part of the country. Right? It's, you go from Boston, there's old money in Boston. There's not quite the same affluency in that part of Alabama. Well, what's funny is in Auburn, you would drive around this trailer park and there's BMWs, Mercedes. So like people have the kids coming from well-to-do families that live in Auburn do Tuskegee? No. But that's what was so great about going there was that it wasn't this flashy, it was like, it was a small school. was 54 people in my graduating class. So everyone knows everyone, you know, there was, would have, you know, you get a little bit of a lacking of the resources that you have. But now when I'm like out in practice and I see people that are, like, oh, you're a Tuskegee grad. Like I automatically know they're, very similar. Like you can just fly by the seat of your pants and just figure shit out as you go. And we didn't have all the bells and whistles. So we kind of learned, I think, and that worked out for our benefit, I think. I'm just still trying to picture. So you're in Auburn and the kids, quote unquote, are the young people that are going to school or there for whatever reason, instead of living like in an apartment, how you would in normal college town, um everyone's in a trailer. So this is normal. Okay. Like there's dorms, there's apartments. But what I liked was that I had a dog and I had a cat, which I couldn't have those when I was in UMass in undergrad. So if you have a trailer, my prerequisite was that they had to have a fenced in yard, which many of them were. So I can now live with my dog and have a fenced in yard. And, most of the trailers, like many places, you have to buy the trailer and then you pay the rent to live there. So my parents bought me a trailer and then you pay every, every month. Yeah. That's awesome. You know what though? Looking back, I would have loved to have had a trailer. I would have loved to have been in a trailer because it's a house. It is a home. It's a home. they trailers or manufactured homes? Like could you show up with a... Yeah, there you go. I think that would have been awesome to have a little fenced in yard and to have like a home. would have been much cooler than an apartment. oh was, I had told my parents, I'm like, roommate is not in the question. Like that's not even a possibility. Like I'm in vet school now and it was hard enough. Like when I was an undergrad, when I moved off campus, we lived, I was like, I wanna have my own room. I don't wanna share a room. And now that I'm in vet school, I definitely don't wanna share. I didn't know anyone either. I'm not gonna take that risk. So it kind of worked out for that benefit. But yeah, my first, there's a theme here. week or two. Oh, no, it was probably a few weeks into school was Hurricane Katrina. And so I'm in Alabama and we have a lot of students that are from Louisiana. And so we had one person actually leave like there because he was older. And so we had family there. So he he just dropped out of school. That was, you know, catastrophic. Yeah. man, like you said, there was a theme, the beginning of a pre vet, you have 9 11. And then the beginning of vet school, have Katrina. And were things kind of shut down for a while in Alabama because of what was going on with Katrina? a little bit. I remember going to get gas and there wasn't gas at every pump, which I couldn't even wrap my mind around, which now in Florida, it's like, well, depending on a random day and the weather report, that might happen, you know, but uh that was probably the biggest part of it. But with vet school, like you, you can't a week in vet school is like a month in undergrad, like just the quickness of the what they're trying to teach you. like, really wasn't a lot of time off. um You know, they just kind of kept rolling with it. But yeah, it was tough. Now did you before you came down to Alabama, did you give your notice that up in Massachusetts where you no longer working up there anymore once you switched? Okay. was applying to that school. then I got in. And it was funny when I was my last, my senior year at UMass, I was taking a horseback riding class because why not, right? It's two credits. And which I actually really enjoyed. But my teacher was like, I think she was a sophomore. So she was under me. But she had been riding her whole life. But she was a teacher. And I remember being at the barn and like everyone's goal is to go to vet school. And I find out I got in, I didn't want to tell a soul. Like I did not want to tell anyone. One, because I didn't want them to be mad at me, I guess. And two, I was like, it wasn't Tufts, which everyone thinks in Massachusetts, like you'll go to Tufts. So I didn't really, so I literally didn't tell anyone. It was really, no, no. okay. It's extremely difficult, I would assume. Even I like, I've heard of tough. No, no, I mean, in general, had they gotten into vet school in general? No. Okay. I honestly think my class that I can think of maybe one, maybe two other people that got into school. Yeah. what do you do if you do four years of pre-vet and don't get into vet school? What do you do? Some people will work and try to diversify their application. They'll work at a veterinary hospital or they'll do large animal. They'll just get more experience. And some people will go and do a master's degree. I know some people that have done that, like, oh, just get a master's because at least of getting another degree while I'm still reapply every year for it. Cause you're really putting literally all your eggs in one basket there. It's like, this is it. It's such a risk. It's such, it's, it's amazing that you got in. It's such a risk and not nothing against you. It's just the odds, you know? So congratulations. That's a huge thing. mean, I think as a parent, I'd be so stressed out if I knew it's all riding on this. my gosh. I don't even know. Well, you can't really transfer it. I guess you could to human medicine, But I'm sure there's not a true overlap. You'd have to go back and start over, do different things. Yeah, if so, I was just so naive, like even my senior year with my advisor, I was like, okay, if I don't get in, can I just, you know, start a master's here and then transfer to that school? He's like, no, it's like that school like it's four years there. Like, you don't start late, you don't jump in. It's like, it's that you have to go from start to finish. Same thing for medical school. A lot of the prerequisites overlap, you know, the biology and the chemistry and physics, that sort of thing. But The other thing is every school has different prerequisites. So like some would want public speaking, some don't want that. So sometimes you're kind of pigeonholed into, you have to know where you want to apply because you can't apply to every school if you don't have all those prerequisites and you want to. So the barriers to vet school are pretty next level, actually. I mean, the pressure, the pressure. Have you taken stock of the pressure you were under? It's probably good. were. yeah, she has. No, no. Well, now. Yeah, that's why she's doing what she's doing now. But at the time, it's probably good. You were kind of maybe naive to the full pressure. Yeah. Because. the next step for me. You know, like you just go on. It's just the next thing. Yeah. so you're in vet school. How long is vet school? Is it four years? Wow. um Is that more hands on or is it still a lot of classroom? The first, every school is a little different. They've changed it a little bit, but uh the first two years is mostly, mostly classroom stuff, but you have anatomy. So that's your first year and that is pretty hands on. You're just dissecting stuff in an anatomy lab. And I think I inhaled so much formaldehyde. That's definitely not space. They used to make us come up and take breaks after like 30 minutes. Like you have to go outside for 10 minutes and come back. And then. Wow. class after us got like the non-carcinogenic formaldehyde. Isn't that nice of them? It was, yeah. Yeah. again, here's a thing you have in common with Gen X. You'll be fine. Don't worry. You'll be fine. Don't worry. The stuff we were expecting. You're fine. You're fine. When you're dissecting things, like I remember dissecting like a frog and a worm. We all did that. Yeah. are you doing like cows and pigs and dogs and like that kind of thing? dogs, cats, pig, horse. Those are the big ones. And by dissect, like, you have to know, like, every nerve and blood vessel. And it was like, you you think, OK, I'm hot shit. Like, I went through undergrad. Like, I'm smart. And then you get there and you're like, what the fuck is this? I was not prepared for this. I don't even know. I can't even tell you how many times I cried. Like, almost daily, probably. Because it was just such a vast volume of information and how you studied for undergrad was not how I studied in vet school, but you don't know until you do it and you kind of find what works for you. yeah, was, know, people always like, would you go back to vet school? I'm like, knowing what I know now? No, but that's the beauty of it. You don't know. That's why you do it, you know. How, how the hell do you preserve a horse? Is it, is it like sliced into different pieces or is it like in this vat? You know, like, what, how does that. a little bit of both. um They. I hope I probably will piss someone off, but um you sedate the pet or the animal and many of these were donated, so the pet is sedated. They're still alive. The animal horse whatever and they bleed them out. So awful. You totally cut this part out if you don't want it and. And they um you inject latex so the. arteries are red and the veins are blue. And that's actually helps when you're studying to know which is which. So they're alive, but obviously after that they're not. they are also like you get involved. It's kind of the same thing. It's the formaldehyde that preserves them. So we had, started with dogs and we had groups and we all had dogs. And I remember walking down now that the anatomy lab was called the pit. So, which is hilarious because there's that show now, which I was. yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we walked down and I love pitties, bully bulldogs, like all the bully breeds. And I walked down and they're like, it's your dog. And I'm like, Oh, they're all pitties. Like they're all like, would be my dog. like, Oh, okay. So you go through and you're literally dissecting like muscle by muscle and there's a huge walk in freezer slash refrigerator. And so when you're done, you wheel them in there. But then when we next semester got to a large animal, the horses, they still prepare them the same way, but they're like in these like huge hooks and they're hanging from like tracks and they're on chains. So you just like wheel them into, yeah, I have horrifying pictures from it. And it's, once we get to a certain point, they cut them in half for us. So we focus because they're so big that we put like the backend in there for a couple of weeks until we're ready and then we switch it out. But the fun part was that when we had a practical, you you have to know blood vessels, arteries, nerves, whatever. And so you're looking at all your other classmates groups like, let me look and see, cause they're all a little different. And so, or they dissected different. So we get to our first test and I'm like, What the fuck is this? Where did you find this horse leg? This is not from any of our horses. He just, our professor, like they just have them in there. So it's literally this horse leg with hair. Like it looks like a regular horse leg. It's not dissected. A little incision and a little piece of some sort of crap and it's tabbed. And it's like, what is that? I don't even know if that's a blood vessel. I don't know if like, and so we're all taking our practical and we're looking at each other like, what the fuck? Like, do you know what that is? So yeah, you learn anatomy really good after that. Yeah. Yeah, so. What is the cycle? Is there psychological damage you go through in the first part of this? Just because you have to be obviously you have to view this from a medical standpoint, but you're a human being. So um did you did you have some mental health issues at all in the beginning of this? Just kind of getting past what you were what you're seeing would cause trauma in most people. And my dad was an ER doc, so I know for him, he compartmentalized pretty much his entire life. ah Did you have to compartmentalize? Is that pretty much how you function in that situation? what's so weird is that now, like now I would be so much more affected because I'm so much more in touch with that. Whereas back then, I think all of us were like, this is bad ass. Like we were, did our whole lives to do this and it was exciting. And yes, it's horrible, but we're like, this is, if we can learn this, then we can help them. So was kind of like a means to the end. But now if you had me do it, I would probably be in the corner. You know, like, yeah. the medical, that's the doctor part of you. And that's why people who are doctors or vets are that. It takes that special part of your person. You're so passionate about helping people or helping animals that you can get past what needs to be done in order to get to the step to help them. But it's a special person to do that. Yeah, for sure. Because I can't really remember anyone ever like crying or like we were just, ah we were just so excited to be there, you know, and to have the opportunity that it, it, really minimized, like you couldn't even tap into like those emotions. It was like, just like anything else where we got to where we were, it was like, you just put your head down, you keep going. Yeah, I think it's a young person sport. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. So how long was that like a full year of doing that or two years of doing that? Because that's anatomy is insane, right? Yeah, so that was first year. First semester was like cats and dogs and then second semester first year was large animals. So horses, pig. Forget what else we dissected, um but in addition, we're also taking physiology, histology. And another one I can't remember. um So you have, you know, you're like four classes well. They each could be, you know, they're just cramming it. So we would have exams in what we call blocks. So every few weeks you would have all your classes had exams that same week. So that was a fun week. So after blocks, we would have a block party is what they call it. And that's when we would drink our faces off. Yes. And we, yeah, those are probably just as wild as the undergrad parties. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. in a trailer park. You'd go crazy. That's awesome. Were all of your classmates or whatever you call also lived in trailers? Like were you kind of in the same area living geographically with everyone? We were kind of spread out. Like a lot of us lived in Auburn. Most of us did in different trailer parks. Like some of good friends were like less than a mile away. And then some people lived in Tuskegee because they, a lot of them went to undergrad at Tuskegee too. So they either knew people in the area and rented a house. was, which was nice because it was closer. So as you have to stay at school longer, it's just a shorter commute too. Yeah, so then what was your second year? If you're dissecting things first year, how did they ... God, was all mostly classrooms. So it was clinical pathology, parasitology, pharmacology, um all the ologies that you can think of, virology, immunology, it was like all of those. And so by third year, we're like, get us into something that's alive, you know, like get us out of a book, something that's not dead. And third year, we actually start surgery. And that was like, everyone was like, you know, so excited to do that. And you kind of, you also transition into rotation. So you start rotating with the fourth year students. So you're really like bottom of the toad and pole, like just crap on the bottom of someone's shoe. And so you go through large animals, small animal surgery, uh pathology. you know, where you're dissecting dead animals again, doing necropsy. And so you go through that whole rotation as well. But the surgery part was, I have to say Tuskegee does a phenomenal job. And I think it's changed because I totally got this, but the animal welfare aspect of things, because we did live surgeries. So these animals are. Strays that don't have homes and they, we had like a whole. facility where they would be kenneled and we would have to like our surgery groups, which is groups three, would have to take care of the pet. So someone has to go down in the morning and feed it and take it out. And someone is still like, bond with these fucking animals, you know? And same thing. kind of surgery? Like just surgery like let's open it up and play type of thing? Or were there actual ailments you were treating to do that? like we got obviously really good. were most of them were not spayed or neutered. So we did that. But it was like the first week was a was a not terminal surgery. So we had to do surgery and wake them up. So we had to make sure you didn't fuck shit up, you know, like make sure the animals are OK. And then the following week was the terminal surgery. So spays and neuters. But we did. um cystotomies, is a bladder stone removal. We took out a nephrectomy at kidney removal. We did splenectomies taking out the splen. know how to do it? like it needed it? Yeah, okay. was, it like some of those bigger surgeries were terminal, like we didn't wake them up from that. But one that I was like, so there's three people in your group. have a surgeon, an anesthesiologist and an assistant. We're all, you know, in the same, we're all classmates. And the surgery that I was like surgeon on was like a tracheal resection and anastomosis, which means your trachea. I don't even know where you would use the surgery nowadays, honestly, but you. take out some of the cartilage rings. So you have to cut it in half and then sew it back together. But these animals have breathing tubes down, right? Like that's how they're staying under anesthesia. So it's like my assistant and anesthesiologists have to like move it and I have to do it real quick. Then they have to put it down, like just keep them under anesthesia. These were on Fridays. And so it was like, we started at probably like one. Some of us, we didn't get out to like seven or eight at night. And it was, yeah, like, of course all these, many of the dogs are like pity mixes, which are my jam. even in those situations, was that a little rough even then? Yeah, because it was, you know, there were cases that the surgeries didn't go great and there were complications and those weren't terminal surgeries, which is like, like I said, now could not do it 100 % could not do it. And it's changed a lot. I actually don't even know because every school is different in what they do, but a lot of them and understandably have done away with live surgery, which I 100 % get. But we also I've worked with lot of doctors coming out of school and they're like, I don't want to do surgery. don't even know what I'm doing. So there's definitely a downfall of that. I don't think there's a good answer, but. is there a shortage of um surgeons in veterinary medicine? of veterinarians period in. drives the cost, If it's like Floyd, who's our shepherd, if Floyd needed surgery, that's why it's so expensive. It's a specialized skill, I would assume at this point. Maybe your age and older got the practical experience. Now the new vet's coming out. To your point, it's like, I'm not doing that. I never did it. Yeah, so there is boarded specialists that will do like your specialized surgery. But when I was in practice, like I did those bladder stone removals, took out spleen, spay, neuter, remove a sock, you know, from a dog's stomach and or intestine. Actually, I just had to do that to my own because it ate something and it got stuck. I, yeah. So yeah, like it was, I was grateful that I had that experience and I had a great mentor when I came out. But Now there, I get it. Like if I didn't have that experience, I wouldn't be like, all right, let's jump on in on an owned pet, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's someone's family member. Yeah. Why do you think there's a shortage of vets in general right now? So I think it's changing a little bit, but because many of them are leaving their profession because they're burnt out. And so what has happened, so I graduated in 2009 and when I graduated, it was 2009, like the economy was not great. I thankfully was so blissfully unaware of that at the time. I just had my head in the book, I guess, but I did an externship at a hospital down here in Florida. and they ended up, it was a solo practitioner, he owned his own practice and he's like, at the end of my externship, he's like, hey, if you're ever interested and you wanna come back, he offered me a job in a very roundabout way and I was very oblivious that, I was like, okay, and then I went on a couple of job interviews and I was like, these hospitals are, like they're just, this isn't where I thought I would start out and I don't think I would get the mentorship. So I drove on my, way home from one of these awful interviews and I literally just showed up at the hospital like, hey, remember me? He's like, yeah. He's like, give me five minutes. Let me go finish this appointment. And we just like sat down. It was like a Friday afternoon and he hired me. And I was like, I just really want this mentorship. And he's like, I need another doctor. So that was great. Tides have changed and there are so many job listings now. But what has happened is corporate has been like, this is an untouched, this is a moneymaker. And they've come in and especially during COVID, they, a lot of the baby boomers that are like, Hey, I want to retire. worked my whole life. And there's these younger doctors and this is a generalization, but for the most part are like, I don't want to own a practice. This is too much stress. Like there's so much bullshit that comes with it. So. corporate comes in and says, hey, I'll pay you three times what your practice is worth. Well, fuck, I probably would sell too. And they sell, but they have totally done this in a way that they haven't really utilized people that have actually worked in the profession. So like, there are some bigger companies that have people that used to work at Starbucks and they've come in to like manage the hospital. And it's like, you don't know a fucking thing about this. Like this isn't a playground. Like there's, and there's ways to do things and there's things take a certain period of time. can't just jam a bunch of appointments into a day and hope for the best, but they don't really care. They're looking at a bottom line. And so a lot of people have left. And I think a lot of those more private practices are becoming a little few and far between. think it's changing a little bit, but you'll always like I. There's hundreds of listings for veterinarians right now because go ahead, sorry. Go ahead. was gonna say that, you know, if they're working in a corporate environment like that, you're not going to stay very long. You know, you're exhausted. You're just a money making machine to them and they don't honestly give a shit about the pets. you know, how, how long do you stay in that profession? And if you can't find a private practice that you really enjoy, you know, there's a lot of students that are coming out with $400,000 plus worth of debt, barely making a hundred grand and they're miserable. So. So they're ending up in these situations where the, is it private equity or is it just? No, it's our vets. No, I know, but a corporation is coming in and buying, it happened to our vet. We actually had to leave. It was a mom and pop type vet. We were with them for, I don't know, like 15 years or something. dogs or something. Oh no, more, five dogs. And a corporation came in, bought it. everything change and it's funny you say like people that manage a Starbucks because I do think it did no offense to people that manage a Starbucks, but it did feel like it was just being treated as I'm the manager and this is how I manage and it was it was so for it was so I left there crying one day and I said we're getting out of here. It was horrible. It was horrible. Horrible. And I would I would have anxiety if I had to take them in. I would have anxiety. I have moved. as their annuals come up, I've moved them over to a vet. owns his own practice. He's wonderful. His staff is amazing. The staff makes all the so much of the difference. So I'm we have three. I'm moving them over as their annuals come up. So they lost three good customer. They're making thousands and thousands off of us. But that it's really interesting you brought that up because now I really see I saw that in real time. A corporation came in and changed a complete culture. And it almost seems like the vet, the doctor is not happy. Like the doctor is there. They seem miserable. seem like they're almost being held against it. Like they want to say to me, I know this is horrible. I have no control. That's the vibe I got from her is that she wants to take care of my dog and she knows this is a nightmare situation, but she can't say that to me. And so I felt bad. And she was like the fourth one they had. Once the originals left. They kept having new, every time I took my dog in, it's a different doctor. So I saw that happen. So when, is it making em less people go into, want to go to vet school? Are young people seeing the results before they get out of vet school or you're still having all these people going in and coming out and realizing it's like that after the. they're still going in. So it's even more fucked up because they've opened many because there was 28 vet schools for decades and now they open like eight vet schools in the last couple of years. And if you look at some of them. You take a really deep dive down some of them have. ah You know some of them are like a good universities like Clemson Clemson needed a vet school. They're a great University. That's you know that's fine. Some of these schools you've just never heard of in any other capacity and they have backing, think by corporate corporations, but they funnel them through like, it's a trust or it's a charitable nonprofit on the books. So what they're doing though is now, so these unassuming students are coming in, spending a fuck ton of money. There's one that I can think of that opened the last couple of years and it's 70,000 plus a year. And that's not even, you know, your room and board. And what's even worse now is those schools, they're NAVLE, which is the National North American Veterinary Licensing Exam. So it's a whole national exam. Like forever, the passing percentage for all the schools combined was well over 90%. It's probably mostly over 95%. It's now a 70 something percent. And so I'm like, this is predatory. These poor students, like myself, was so eager to go into this profession. They don't know, you know, they go in and now like myself, I didn't think about money when I was in school. I'm like, I'm going be a fucking doctor, right? That's what I thought. And you take out a shit ton of student loans. And I was thankfully lucky. I didn't have $400,000 worth of student loans. But then they come out and they're like, I'm to pay a shit ton of loans. Oh, there's all these corporates, corporations that are like, Hey, we'll give you, you know, I've seen some a hundred thousand dollars signing off bonus. So, well, shit, that looks good. Well, they go and it's a complete nightmare. And they're like, I can't even, but they sign a contract. They've got to stay for two years or whatever. And they're like, I'm fucking done. Like I don't take your money, take it back. I don't want it, but they're stuck. And so that has happened. That's. That's a lot of what has happened. what's going on. It almost feels like the treatments prescribed too. It's almost like the dog comes in or pet comes in presenting these conditions. This is the treatment. You can't deviate. You can't talk to the owner and do any consultative, let's maybe try this therapeutic approach. It's slotted almost. Is that accurate? Is that what's kind of happening? I think in some ways it is. I think there are some corporations that try to have a little leeway, but truthfully, a lot of them are just looking at the bottom line. And what's challenging is like most of the time, not always, but most of the time, if you're practicing good medicine, you're gonna be lucrative because you're not just recommending to recommend, you're recommending a certain level, a standard of care, right? I always do that and like the owner can make the decision, right? That's not me. I'll give you, that's what I would want. Like what do you think is best for my pet? And then I can decide from there. But yes, that's kind of gone by the wayside and you get some of corporate that's like, well, you got to reach your numbers and you've got to hit this number for your monthly goal. And by the way, the only way you're going to do that is to see 30 pets in a day and pack them and stack them. You know, so yeah, it's awful. And it's crazy because almost every person that brings their animal and even if it's for an annual is emotional about that pet. So you're to be a successful vet, I would assume it's also a psychological game. have to be able to connect with your patients. They need to feel that you love their dog, their cat, their whatever, as much as they do for them to trust you with that animal. But now if you're in a situation where it's like, come on, just keep keep it going. Keep it keep it. What is that? the, the conveyor belt. Then you lose that connection and then that's bad business because people feel that. Like if I don't feel my dog, if I don't feel that you're going to, then I'm not coming back. And that's why I left because I lost the connection and my new vet. feel like they love my, they may not love my dog. They make me feel like I love my dog. They love my dog. Yeah. They caught on immediately. My nickname for her and started calling her that within five seconds and I'm like, okay. So they pay attention, right? Cause it is psychological. Cause I'm going to be spending money here, but you would need to make me feel okay about that. And so it's killing that connection with your patients and your patients, your fur patients, but also your human patients. So I'm sure they're feeling that too, cause people will walk away. Yeah, and that's why I think, you know, it's been so challenging for corporations to come in that maybe you do great at Starbucks and that's awesome, but you can't treat, you know, there's so many changes that can happen in a day that like an appointment takes twice as long as it's supposed to, or this totally turned into a shit storm of things and they don't care. They're just looking at how many pets did you see today? And it's like, Well, to your point, if I just went in there, I was like, all right, what are we doing? We're doing some vaccine, you know, it's like, but it boggles my mind to have so many people in the profession say that. And I get business. I a hundred percent get that, but you won't have business. Like it's continuity and continuing. Like you might have to spend a little bit more upfront to make more long-term and they don't give a fuck. don't, they're not, that's not their focus. I wonder if it'll get, if they'll figure it out. I mean, cause I assume the, the, what's it called? Like the industry is, are they, are they seeing it? it going to correct? There has to be because it is so horrendous and us leaving them or we can't be the only ones who left. No, I know. know we weren't elsewhere to the guy we moved to is probably slammed and he's more, he's more expensive, but I'm fine spending it because of how I feel when I'm there. I don't have anxiety there, you know, Like you have anxiety, someone's gonna go and work a 12 hour shift there, you know? And let, yeah. yeah, the whole energy. just it actually it's it's such a trip that you just put this out there because when I tell you I would call him coming back being like just in a panic attack almost of how my experience that's how bad it was. And so I can't imagine being a vet, especially young vet. You don't know what you're getting into. then like you said, then you realize and you're like, and you know, and I'm sure you went to We live in Boca, right? So there's a lot of elderly people here and I've seen them come in and I know 85 year old Ethel is going to talk to that vet for a good 30 minutes before they get anything about her little tiny dog that's this big. Before anything, and to your point, you need time in the day for those She'll drop eight grand on little fluffy. But they don't see that. Like they'll say like, okay, that's great, but somehow make that appointment 15 minutes. And it's, ah, I was gonna add Yelp review or something, you know? Okay. So when you, when you graduated and you got, went back to this, um, the, the doctor who, offered you the mentorship and the position. Um, and that was here in Florida. And how long did you work there? you there with him? I was there for decade. I was there for 10 years. so obviously he's privately owned and it was getting to be like probably eight years in and I was getting really burnt out because we, was just him and then it was myself. And then we ended up adding two, but we really needed three more doctors. Like we just exploded with growth, thankfully. But like, this is like such a classic story for so many hospitals. At that point, there just wasn't that many people looking for jobs. Like there just, was more job openings in the work vets. And so you just go to work and you kind of still like, all right, pull up your boots today, put on your roller skates. We're going to have a busy day. And for years, like I did that for years. And I was a medical director at that point too. And I got good at. you know, like, all right, we're gonna have, I'd have like a surgery day, like, all right. And they're like, okay, so we're full. Hey, Parks, can we add this one in? I'm like, all right, sure, yeah, yeah, it'll be fine. And like, oh, can we add this one in? Like, you you become that doctor, which my boss was that too, but you're the more experienced one at that point. And so I would just, I remember I would go home and be like, all right, so tomorrow's, I just gotta get through the day. Like, I'm just gonna wake up, you know, have some coffee and just hit the ground running. barely peed or drank water, God definitely didn't sit down and eat anything. And then you get to like close and you're like, all right, well I did it. And you just do it every day. And it's not healthy, but I, in my mind, because of probably from my parents, like you just suck it up, right? Like that's the gen X too. Like you just, you don't fucking complain. You suck it up, you do it, and you're gonna grow your career. And this is what's going to have you climb ladder. So it wasn't, I didn't even have a thought that this could have been bad. And I finally got to a point that I was like, I fucking can't do this anymore. And I went to my boss. Well, actually I applied for a job that was down in St. Pete, St. Petersburg, Florida here. And I got the job. It was a medical director and it was actually for a corporation. I, my gut was like, no. do not do this job. It's the same thing that you're doing, but it's even bigger clusterfuck because I walked into the hospital and I'm like, first of all, the hospital smells. I'm done. Like I don't, this isn't going to work. And then I'm just looking at everything and I'm like, you guys have a shit show here and you're just trying to throw someone into the mix to be a medical director, to fix the storm that's going on. And so, but I was like, all right. And then I was getting my notice to my boss at the time and Cause I was like crying. I was like, I'm so sorry. Like I can't do this. I'm going to lose. Like it was a Friday. He's like, give me the weekend. He's like, don't give them an answer yet. Give me the weekend. Like, okay. So he had an interesting opportunity. A year or two prior, we had a client that came in. used to work for PetSmart and she was very high up in PetSmart. He left and then she had a not compete, which she waited. And then she moved to Florida and she's like, I want to open up this. veterinary hospital, boarding, grooming, but like bougie, like very upscale. And she's like, I love the way that you guys run this practice and I want you to recreate this for us. So my boss went in on that. So he kind of got pulled away from his practice. I was kind of in charge and he started growing this, which they ended up having four or five locations and hospitals. And he's like, actually, Amber, I need someone because I have all these doctors that are asking me questions about cases. I don't have time to answer their questions. And now I'm trying to do like the backend stuff of the business for both businesses. He's like, I really need you. Would you come on board and mentor? You know, I'm like, fuck yeah. Like that sounds like the perfect, that's what I want. You know, I was getting really burnt out by going into 20 exam rooms a day and having the same conversation. So I came on board, but Same thing, we had a lot of spots with jobs that people as veterinarians would fill and then they would move or leave or whatever. So we had a need, usually at one of the locations, I would go into the corporate office to have a meeting with my boss. I thought it was great, I wasn't seeing appointments, I could wear regular clothes. And he'd be like, hey, can you go to this other location and see appointments? The doctor called out or we don't. So I was like, Okay. And I'm a very type A, like everything has to be kind of organized. When I walk in, I don't know what I'm getting thrown to. Like that was stressful. So it got to the point that I did that enough that I was like, okay, I'm actually doing more of the filling in that I am of the job I was really hired for. But I understand. But that was actually, it was corporate. It was starting to become corporate. They were having many different locations. And I just saw the shit show that that was too of like, talk about passing the buck. Like, does anyone have the answer here at all? We just keep emailing each other and it just goes in a circle. This is fun. So I was like, you know what, there's in the veterinary world, we call it relief work or loco work where you go off and you're basically your own business and you fill in at other hospitals that need you. And there was a huge need at that point, but you're like, I'm a 1099. I work for myself. So I have to provide all my own insurance, health insurance liability. You know, there was all of that that makes people really nervous, but good old dad, he owned his own business for 20 years. So he was like, so excited. He's like, yeah, do it. Like, I'll help you. So I started to do relief. And when I told my boss I was leaving, he's like, I figured, you know, at some point you would, you would probably leave again. And he's like, but you're going to just be doing the same thing that you're doing. how you're going to be back in appointments. I'm like, yeah, but I can make my own schedule. I can charge what I want. If I don't like the hospital or the people there, I don't go back. Like it was perfect. So I was really burned out, but that looked like a good solution. So I did that for six years and I did general practice, urgent care, and ER. I really went actually full ER for several years and I only worked at a handful of corporate urgent cares, but it was that exact thing that you described is like, you imagine trying to form a connection. It's an emergency. They're pet sick. They don't fucking know you from a hole in the wall. And now I want you to spend money because I'm making recommendations. You don't know me. Like it was, it was, I, I'm writing a book actually. I haven't told anyone, but It's a slow process, but some of these stories, like my family would just be like, what do you got? Like any good stories lately? Cause there's just a community shit would happen, you know? And people say the craziest things to you. So I really like it rejuvenated my love of the profession until like a couple of years ago, was like, uh, starting to feel the same way again. Like I can, I mean, I was making 60 % more than I mean, like it was a lot more. And I would take off weeks at a time because I could. I would, that's when my sister and I started to really travel a lot. I'm like, when do you want to go? All right, sure. Let's go. You know, so it was, it was great, but then it was the point of like the doesn't matter how much money I'm making. I'm fucking miserable. And it's like, I felt burnt out again. And that's when I was like, okay, there's a common denominator here and it's not my job. It's not my profession. It's me. And so. That's what I tell a lot of people, whether you're in veterinary medicine or not. It's, we always like we're in a shitty work situation. We're always have the feeling of like, I just want to get away. I just want to get away from the pain because that's what we're like in survival mode. And you will recreate that or encounter that again in some capacity and whatever else you do. And I mean, I could literally pick where I worked, what my schedule was, how much, and I still wasn't happy. And it was just how I was trying to process the stress instead of, like I was just trying to run from it instead of process it in a way that actually worked. And that was the biggest thing for me of why I do what I do now too. So I'm assuming, you know, cause you had mentioned therapy and um so I'm assuming you've looked back. Can you pinpoint when you started processing stress the way you had been doing? it from when you were in from your childhood or did that hit you in college and pre-vet or was there that, that moment you were able to say, that's when I started processing stress that way. Yeah, so myself and many of us, it's how it's as a child, typically between the ages of zero and seven is like our biggest, we're like sponges of the good, the bad and the ugly. And so a lot of that was like, you see your parents, like my dad owned his own business, but he worked hard. So inadvertently, my self-worth meant like how productive I was. And I didn't realize that until literally several years ago. And so that's why people that work really hard and are workaholics, then they go home and they have to keep doing stuff, you know, or they retire and they have to keep doing stuff. It's because our self-worth is really tied to like our productivity. And so we feel like a failure or we feel lazy if we're not doing something. And so I always was, you know, I was that person that was like five steps ahead of someone. because I was like, know this client, I know they're gonna ask this, so just do this. And I was just like, which was so great for the practice, but you're in 20 different directions at the same time. So I didn't, yeah, I didn't really realize that. And then what happens is like, okay, so I'm a high achiever, literally didn't know that until a couple of years ago too, which most people that are high achievers are like, I thought everyone was like this. were just, everything's hard, we just work hard. uh But what happens is everything that I tell people, everything that got you to the point that you're at, isn't going to be what sustains you. Because if I was in vet school and I'm like, I don't really feel like doing much work today, I'm gonna go relax, like that wouldn't have worked. So it's now kind of changing how I've been doing things my whole life, but it starts, yes, typically as a youngster and school, right? Like school's like. You do good grades, get accolades, you get, you know, praise, and that's really when it starts. So how do you um balance you need to work hard to achieve, accomplish your dreams, or get the job you want, or in school get the grades you want? How do you balance that hard work ethic, or when do you get to the point where you can balance, where you're not just grinding, um but you can still maintain a success that's satisfying? So I think it's learned, you know, because I was in vet school with people that were hard workers, but they were unbothered. They weren't stressed. that's, you know, it's just personality. We all know people like that. And so not that you have to change your personality, but that's where that changing of processing the stress comes from. And so. you hear like the masculine and feminine energies of like doing things. So that's kind of a buzzword now, but it's very true because that hustle is that masculine and we all know what that is. And we've also been very programmed to believe that we have to do that in order to succeed. And so kind of getting honestly your nervous system, like calm down enough to know that it's not going to hit the fan. The world's not going to end. If I take a step back. little bit. So it's a process. it's giving yourself permission to take a step back because I know and I think a lot of Gen Xers can relate to this. And I know for myself, I think I still in this way, even though I I've tried hard not to be, but I feel like I need to earn my rest. I need to earn my if I'm like the whole remember, I'd see like you watch shows or whatever and the mom sitting reading a magazine, drinking a cup of coffee. I've never done that in my whole life because. I never. felt I earned to get to that point. There was always something else I can do. There's always something else I could clean. There's always something else the kids need. There's always some errand to run. And then once I get all that stuff done, maybe I'll sit down and look through the magazine. never, there's not a day I ever got to that. And I'm 54 years old and I've been married for 31 years and I have never had that day because I never felt I earned that. Does that make sense? 100 % and you're are like many people because we're always moving the goalpost. Like just when we get close and we're like, so what happens with that is like, we're not, you hear it a lot, but like we're not enjoying the process to get there. We're always trying to get, because honestly, this is a a rabbit hole you can go down, but who does that benefit when like our parents and Gen Xers. we were of the mindset of you fucking work hard, you have a hard work ethic and that's you get a career and that's how you grow it. Well, who the fuck does that benefit in the long run? The companies you work for or the corporations or if you own your own company, excellent, but you're still burning the candle at both ends. And so nowhere was that going to be like, oh, take a rest and take a break. Like that wasn't going to benefit in theory, other people. And that's That's why, because it's like our parents and then our siblings, like it's been ingrained. So I always tell people like, it's not your fault. This is because now we see younger generations and I went through a period of this where I was like, you're fucking lazy. Get the fucking shit up. Like, just let's like, let's go. And I was like that when I was in practice and I've totally changed 180 of like, guys, we're just sitting on a fucking rock flying through space. Like it's not the end of the world. Like, you know, like shit hits the fan. Okay, you know, it's just having a different perspective, but we're deprogramming decades of ourselves and our parents too. I think you said the actions that get you to say where you're at are different than what sustain you, right? You're not saying that say from a professional perspective, more so just a personal. We took actions to get to this point in our lives, but now that we've hit some enlightenment period, what sustains us is different. Is that kind of what you're saying or am I mishearing that? No, you're right, but definitely professional, too. definitely professional, but I'm jumping more towards the almost the mental health aspect of it. Really. We grind. You know, I've done it. I've grinded so hard for professionally, but it was also the personal I had to or at least I I had to and I know I had to write it just had to. And but then you hit a certain point where I don't you get maybe it's to get older or whatever. You have some success and it's like, I don't have to do that. to have the professional success, but also that interpersonal success. I don't need to be, like you're saying, you're saying you haven't earned your rest. It's almost like I don't have to grind to have the same level of uh satisfaction. Right, right. And I will say, I think that there's a kind of a double standard for women too, because go to, I don't even have kids, but go to work, have kids, raise a family, you know, and it's like, why can't you do it all? And you can't sit down and have a magazine and drink some tea, you know, so that, yeah, yeah. 100 % true. also, and we've talked about this on episodes where when we were growing up, I saw commercials, magazines, like women could do everything, right? You can work and you can have a perfect home and you can be the perfect mother and you have to be skinny and you have to be beautiful m and make your man happy and all the shit. So we grew up thinking that was liberation. Really it wasn't. right. There's so many awesome things about women going in the workforce. I'm not talking about the feminist side of it. I'm in support of that. I'm talking about the bill of goods we were sold by society that you need to do all these things to prove your worth while simultaneously not acknowledging that, hey, if you're going to completely change the role of a woman where she has to do everything now and be totally in her masculine pretty much all the time. then you better talk to the men and they better step up and the feminine aspect for them at the home front. That didn't happen. And we've talked about this before. So they still kept living their own same life. But we took everything on. It's like you look back and you're like, wow, like we were we were so fucked. Good thing. Yeah, he's by the way, he's Irish. So he's always making like some of our listeners don't realize he's I'm joking. get shit. Yeah. No, but so to your point for women, the grind, that's what I'm saying. I feel like I just now probably in the last two years, because I've really, really, really, really have brought self care to the forefront of my world. And as a Gen X woman, that was never a thing. And probably for elder millennial, too. Come on. But I just now finally. have gotten to the point where I'll hit a point in the night and I'm like, I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. And I'm gonna go in and I'm gonna sit and watch a show and I don't care. Like I don't care. I'm just, done. But it's taken me to my fifties to be able to do that. Yeah, that's, I was just on a call with a client today and the number one thing I see with women is that it all comes down to self-worth because it's all conditional for us. It's like, I literally told my client today, I said, if you didn't have a job, you didn't take care of the house. They don't have kids, but if you did nothing, but sit on and didn't take care of your husband, you sat on that couch all day. You still have to be worthy. Do you see yourself that way? And she's like, fuck no. I'm like, That's where we have to get, not to say you have to do those things, but the thoughts that come up when we think about doing that, that's where we tie ourselves to productivity. I mean, truthfully, we didn't, our role models were, like you said, we're doing all those things. So then we're like, well, which by the way, they really weren't, they just looked like it from the outside. We're just now learning that, you know? So it's, it's really changing. you know, how you perceive, you're again, you're kind of changing things you've been doing your whole life. And I still, I'm well aware of this and I still catch myself doing it. have a, you know, 27 things on my to-do list and I'll cross something out and like, Ooh, that feels good. A little hit of dopamine. And then I go add another two on, you know, yes. the moving the goalposts that you're talking about. But what I find so fascinating is men can sit on the couch at any time and have no thought about it. Like, why is that though? Because I know I can. of that is like, yeah, I think it's a lot of that. There's some part of that psychology too. Like we're just wired different. Like women are, I don't want to say overthinkers cause that's, that kind of has a negative connotation, but we're much more, we have a lot of things going on, but we're also thinking that we're like, we have brought up to believe to be nurturers. You know, you're like, you're trying to take care of your family, your kids, are they okay? Do they need this? Like we always put ourselves last and that feels so uncomfortable, we also were kind of told that don't be selfish, be a team player, you know, and it's like, so we do feel like I'm being a fucking lazy ass if I'm gonna sit down and watch a movie, you know? our worst enemies are other women. I think it's changing, at least for Gen X women, we're not raised to support each other. We were raised to compete with each other. Whereas Gen Z women, their girlhood is strong. I say this all the time. I'm not saying there isn't catty moments. Everyone's human. But in general, they're very supportive of each other. They're very much, my gosh, you look beautiful. And they're very much about okay not doing, like they call it rotting. They're like, I'm rotting today. And they just lay on the couch or they lay in bed and they're fine with it. And it's awesome. I love it. that's where, like I said, years ago, I was like, this is bullshit. These people are lazy as fuck. now I'm like, it's we're getting baby boomers, Gen Xers are kind of moving out of the workforce. so honestly, it is going to change because that's all there is. But I'm like, how fucking refreshing is that? know, like, I call lazy, okay, but they're also not going to kill themselves over working hard and have health issues and, you know, go through that whole thing where they're here to, they're working to live, not living to work, you know, and that's admirable. Yeah, it's like they already know, listen, if something happens to me, they're going to replace me with someone else the next day. They already know that. Whereas I think our generation was like, no, we matter to the company when really You matter as far as a worker be. But if you go, if you're not there the next day, they'll get another worker be. And I think the younger generation caught on to that really fast. But millennials are the ones who introduced introduced work life balance. They started it all. And I've said that before and Gen Z is running with it, but the millennials and they got so much shit, so much shit for even bringing up stuff like they fought for that. I almost feel like they work a little smarter. They work hard, but there's work a little smarter as well and are willing to achieve work life balance more so than people my age and older. Yeah. Like we almost need the grind. We're addicted to the. We don't know it's successful unless you grind. If you didn't grind to get there, was it a success? You know? and that's where you don't like there's, there's with the coaching that I do, there's a whole kind of concept that is you can work less and make more and you don't like it. And that's not just like theory. There's a lot of people that are doing that. And I think that, you know, thinking back, we also, Gen X and Baby Boomers, we worked at a company for 20 or 30 years and we got a pension at the end, like that doesn't happen. You know, so you kind of like, why am going to be loyal to you? If you're not, not getting shit here. I'll get paid 15 grand more at the next job. I'm going to just, that's how that's more acceptable. Now is how you move your way up the ladder is to job hop instead of saying at a company. Yeah. a lot more ways of making money now, too, like crypto or online trading. It's very interesting. listened to a podcast last night that we're talking about that how millennials are like the boomers and older. We weren't as focused on our finances and money and how to make money and all the alternative or multiple streams of income. Whereas millennials are programmed that way from the start right off the rip. Right. And and Gen Z and Gen Z. So they're They're not into the, I'm gonna work at this company forever and get my pension because I'm gonna sell cryptos over here. I'm gonna hustle eBay over here. know, whatever it is, those multiple streams of income. So it's very interesting. changes the psychology of, it is the reprogramming. And I think what you're touching on though to a lot of is there's programming, but it's at a very cultural level, right? If one of your clients, if you, you know, you don't have self. self-worth just chilling on the couch. That's a cultural programming. It's the TVs, it's their parents, their grandparents, the neighbors, society. It's the whole thing. oh mean, it's yeah, like, and it's you see any movie. Yeah, all of that supports it all the movies, you know, the TV shows that we watch all the. Yeah. And I think, too, for like millennials, we had to get a little more creative because those those pensions weren't guaranteed either. Like we were getting through that transition of like, you're not guaranteed anything. So you better start being creative with. what you're doing financially and, you know, a diversifying type of thing. Yeah. Have you found working with your clients that, um, I don't know what ages you work with, but I feel like our age is more prone to imposter syndrome than the younger generation. Like almost. And I wonder if that's tied to, did you grind enough? Did you grind hard enough to earn that? Or did you prove yourself enough to earn that? And I don't know if the younger generation goes through that as much. Have you done any work with imposter syndrome or experienced it yourself? Yes and yes. I actually I see it, I will say more in women, but I see doctors that graduate, they're, you know, 26, 28 years old and raging imposter syndrome and I see older people as well. So funny story, I had imposter syndrome. So I'm working at this hospital, I'm a medical director. I'm like, who the fuck gave me this job? You know, like, how did I get here? I don't, you know, like you always looking at someone else. like then that's where the imposter syndrome comes from because from the outside we see that this person, this other person is better and they know more and they should be in this position for the most part. So I always had this want of becoming board certified in another. So when you pass your national boards, technically you're board certified, you can practice in the US, but there is a boarded specialty where You don't get specialized like in dermatology or cardiology. It's you get specialized in the species. So I always was interested in this because you can do it while you're working and you use cases that you see, but you have to be in practice for seven years before you do it. So after I left that practice after 10 years, I was like, Oh, I'll have more time now. Let's do it. And then actually COVID hit. I'm like, okay, this is a sign. I probably really have the time to do it now. So. It took me an extra three years, but I became board certified. had to write a bunch of papers and sit for a fun eight hour test. And I remember being like, cool, I got like five extra letters after my name. And I remember walking into work after I found out that I passed and I was like, oh, I don't feel any smarter. I still feel like an imposter. So I see a lot where people like imposter syndrome comes from not knowing enough. and you have to learn more and you have to take more tests. And I see a lot of people in my profession that are older being like, you just have to get experience, it'll get better. I'm like, no, it won't. And practice for 15 years and I still feel like an imposter, it's confidence. It comes down to self-trust and knowing that if you don't know, either you'll figure it out or if shit hits the fan, you're still okay, kind of goes back to that self-worth because even if you're... something goes sideways, you're still a worthy person as you are human on the planet. And that's really what it comes down to. Sure, experience absolutely helps with those things, but that was like a slap in the face for me of like, okay, stop going to school, stop trying to get all these certificates because that's not where it comes from. That's very surface level. And so I do see it of all ages, really. It's an internal thing. It's that belief in yourself, the confidence yourself, the self-esteem and trusting yourself, but also understanding nothing has to be perfect. And if something like you said, go sideways, it doesn't mean you're not worthy of holding that position. That's just life. Right, right. And that's where, especially like in veterinary medicine, like, yes, there's a small margin of error, right? Like everything is supposed to be perfect. But I tell people, like, we don't, like, not everyone's human, so no one's perfect. So we're literally setting ourselves up for failure because things will go wrong. And so what do we do with that? And that's where I tell people, like, the burnout aspect comes from these root patterns, and it's usually perfectionism. It comes from not really having boundaries and people pleasing and kind of having that low self worth. And so it's the culmination of all that because what happens, you'll be like me, I was at work and from the outside I'm like, hey guys, how's it going? In my head, I'm like, you're fucking kidding me? You're still doing that fucking thing you were doing yesterday? Why can't you do your job and fucking faster? And then they asked me a question, very pertinent question. And I'm like, why do they not know this answer? Like, this is ridiculous. I was so irritable and overwhelmed and I never verbalized it to anyone because you had to put on this show and you have to, you you still strive for perfection, which was stressing me out. And so I just, see that it doesn't even matter the profession. I see it in so many different aspects that just gets repeated. So what happens though, like myself, these people go and they try and switch jobs. And they're like, my job, my workplace was toxic. There's definitely toxic workplaces. I'm not saying that, but if you can't speak up for yourself in like a professional manner and set a boundary of like, you won't talk to me like that, or I can't do this, or I need help doing this, it's, again, you're just going to recreate the same thing in a different environment. And that's really what it comes down to, regardless of what field you're in, what level you're at. That's a lot of what I see in the same way. What got you to that point? Was it the fact that you're ready to switch again and you're like, well, if I switch, it's not gonna solve what's kind of nagging me. So was there an epiphany at some point or there had to have been? yeah, there was, so I did therapy on and off even before I was a vet, but then for about seven years while I was going through all of this. And truthfully, my therapist was great, but I didn't know I was burnt out and I was still working with her for like five years. And so that's when I, yes, I started to go into relief work and I would go to different hospitals. So these are all people that... They're on like their own island, right? Like they just know the people they work with and they don't know what's going on down the street, but I just worked there yesterday and I just kept seeing the same thing. And that's when I was like, it doesn't fucking matter where you work. Like I'm that, but that's also why two people could work at the same workplace. One person's like, it's pretty cool. I kind of enjoy it. The other person's ripping their hair out and they're stressed out. It's a lot of what comes underneath like our, you know, traits, but also programming too. Yeah, we all have different needs, wants and desires and motivations. you process it, because I'm sure also in all of this, avoiding confrontation is probably a big uh addition or ingredient or a trigger for burnout, I would assume, because if you don't learn how to, and we were not raised with any form of conflict resolution at all. Um, so conflict was a bad word to us, right? Which I don't think now I know conflict's not a bad thing. It's working through something. And usually, especially if you're working with a friend or a partner or a colleague, usually if you work through it, you're actually better. It's a better relationship when you get through it, you've bought, you've worked together. It's a team. It's almost team building, but, um, we have no comp, we had no conflict resolution. So you avoid conflicts long enough. that completely feeds the burnout. Yes, because I had a lot of resentment and it was like I had resentment to clients that were nice, but I was like, why the fuck did you come in today? Like you came in the last minute, someone just canceled and you filled the spot. like I, was, it was that to that point and there, know, a 99 % of the clients were amazing. think conflict was, well, I grew up in a household where someone's mad at someone else. They don't talk. And then two days later, nothing said, never it's good. So. Yeah. He's an abort. I grew up the same way. love it. She's like, how can you be like that? I'm like, this is great. It's all water under the bridge. me It drives me crazy. I will say, okay, this might be a little woo, but that emotion, whatever you're feeling, it doesn't go away. It finds its way somewhere in the body and it sits there. No, it's Saturday watching football. No, that's not. I'm just kidding. It's It's not woo. And it does result in somewhere in the body or it results in affecting the relationship with that person, you know, over time ah where you end up no contact with somebody. um So it's it eventually there's a result from it from that. But I think a lot of us grew up like that, too. I actually grew up with a lot of communication because my mom was was a big communicator. She was a single mom. A lot of it was just her and me. So her and I did grow up talking a lot. But I think in general, a lot of Gen Xers and older millennials did grow up in those houses where parents were more afraid to have an argument in front of their kids. They thought that was going to distress them or have not even argument. It could be just they disagree on something. Let's do it behind closed doors. We got to keep everything looking good. And we've worked hard. Now we've gone overboard at times. We definitely had a few years where we fought too much because life was just so stressful. But in general, where we will have the little tit for tat in front of the kids and then have the resolution in front of the kids. I wanted my daughter to know she has every right to speak up. And I wanted my sons to know his their wives have every right to speak up and that it all get resolved. So we we never hit anything. Now again, there were fights we probably should have had where we went too far. And I know Mike, we know those years. We talk about it as a family. Those were not good years. It was a lot. was a high schooler, middle schooler, and a baby. And we were drinking, not like we were functioning alcoholics, right? We had a hard day and we both would have a martini. It was just a recipe for disaster. So stupid arguments, not fights, stupid arguments happen. Other than that one's part in general, I wanted that. I wanted the conflict resolution because I knew he didn't grow up with that. was like everyone stopped speaking to each other for years. No, no, no. A couple of days. It's all good. I'm not talking about your immediate. You're you're extended like they would stop for years. And did you go through? my mom is so my dad was an only child. My mom is one of 11. So Irish Catholic. Yep. And yep. And so there were years, there was probably close to a decade that some of the siblings didn't talk to each other. And what is interesting now is my grandmother is still alive. She's 102. She just had her 102nd birthday. the preemie one. one. No, the other one, my mom's, my all moms. So she's, I think she probably would not want to be here at this point. You know, like she's just like, I'm over it type of thing, but it's brought everyone together. And, and so it's funny. My sister and I talk now, like watching that dynamic because I'm like, actually right now my parents are in Nashville. They drove their RV down. still, they're in their seventies. They travel like they're 20 and yeah. And uh my mom's like, oh, know, so and so is coming down to stay for a week. like, with you and the RV? Like you guys didn't talk two years ago. but now it's like same thing, water under the bridge. No one talks about it. It's so fucked up. I crazy. Like I'll be sitting here like, what? was the best. Growing up, my mom had what? Seven sisters and a brother. Yeah, there were nine of would be every night it was on the phone talking to one of the other aunts. They'd end up, they'd hang up and then they'd call the other, my other aunt and then they'd be complaining about the one they just, you know, that whole thing. And then there's the other one who's crazy. We're not talking to her because of. the way she looked at us at the last barbecue, you that kind of shit. I think it's awesome. And then if they get mad, they just don't talk for like three years. And then when they see each other again, everything's normal. Now, so when I entered the family, I was just like, because I'm from Oregon, West Coast, right? I'm in Jersey now. armpits and everything. No, no, no. But I mean, I came to a situation where we talked about things. Right? it was just, still, I scratched my head still. Cause I'm one of those like, no, I want to resolve it. Let's resolve it. Yeah. It's interesting. So I wonder, two part question, but what I've noticed in the workplace now, we talk more, right? So it's not conflict. It's we're being direct and transparent, right? That's the, that's the new conflict resolution. Are you still, it sounds like you're doing more coaching and less than that corporate environment, right? So are you? If you're in that corporate, you, is that, have you noticed that it's, let's talk direct and be transparent. So I couldn't do corporate anymore. I was working for myself and I actually stopped going to corporate hospitals, but I stopped. left clinical practice last year, last December. So I've just been doing coaching, which is a whole nother identity shift because people think I've lost my mind that I've like, you put in all this hard work. like, yeah, but I can't do what I'm doing now without having what I had done. But to your point, think a lot of that is verbiage that's used. You know, like I think there is some of that in corporate, but I also think let's make it shiny and polished and look nice from the outside. It's kind of like a lot of corporations. I won't say all, but many are like, we have self care and we have work life balance. It's like you check the box on, you know, cause it's different for everyone. Like what I would enjoy and you would enjoy might be two different things. So yes, there are some companies that do that, but I think like, we we are transparent and we do like they kind of make it like a selling point in a way. How much of that is there? I'm sure there some, but. It's almost we jokingly say it in certain situations. It's like I'm going to be super nice to you as I completely fuck you over and you're going to feel good about it. Yeah. But I think they have to do that. They have to adjust for the younger generations. Yeah. They have to have those those buzzwords. Was there so you left a year ago, almost a year you're coming up on your anniversary. Yeah. So how was there a moment that made you finally go? Like this is enough, like did you get sick from all this stress and burnout or was there, was there a rock bottom with all this? Several. There was kind of like when I left, when I was working for my mentor after 10 years and I like, I wasn't, I was actually working three jobs at a time. I was working at that main hospital. I would work in addition to some other shifts at his other hospitals and then an ER, I'd work some weekends. So I was also in like a crappy relationship and talk about like not talking about things. just, wasn't really taught that. So someone would, my partner would piss me off and then I wouldn't talk about it. And then, um so I worked a lot and then I ate a lot and I drank a lot. So 55 pounds later, you know, I gained all this weight and I had, it actually started in vet school, but really bad GI issues, you know, and like stomach issues. And it would flare up from time to time. And then A couple years ago, I was working overnight shift in the ER and if I eat. You know crap food, it flares up and it literally feels like. I swallowed gasoline like it's burning. It's awful and I was just 4 in the morning and I was like I'm working till 8. I've worked 5 PM to 8 AM and then it's 4 AM. I'm like I can't make it to 8 AM like I'm I'm double over pain and so I told the technician. I said I'm not. you, I'm leaving. I'm not asking you if I can go. I'm leaving. So you need someone else to cover here." And so they called the owner of the practice and she came in. I actually went to the ER. I mean, I got morphine. I was there for several hours and it was the stress of just all of that and working and being miserable. the talk about women not supporting women, I went to work like couple days later and they're like, Dr. So-and-so said, you you didn't look that bad. And she came in. And was like, thanks. know, like I was never, always showed up early. stayed late. Like I wasn't that person. So, but I'm also like in many professions that med two, like that overwork and that hustle is a badge of honor. And it's like, how hard can you play? you're, you're a pansy if you can't, you know, do that. And so that I could care less about at this point, but then I really kind of I love the profession, but I fell out of love with what I didn't feel like I was helping. I just didn't feel like I was helping pets anymore. I felt like I was just giving meds. And then they'd come back, like I'm in Florida, so we have itchy dogs. So then they come back two months later and I'm like, I'm not fucking fixing this. And one day I had a really difficult client, nice as can be, but just like kept asking the same question. I'm like, this is still the same answer. And it was the end of the day and I literally was like gonna rip my hair out and I had already started coaching at this time, but I was doing some coaching and still working. And a voice inside my head said, I'm done. And I was like, who the hell was that? And I was like, oh, I'm done. And then I kind of thought about it and I was like, well, I'm working relief. I only work six or seven shifts a month at this point. Why the fuck am I working? You know, and I was like, you know what? YOLO. I'll just jump off the dot, you know, the deep end. So. That was actually October, it a year ago, and I finished out the last couple months of shifts that I had with them, and I left. And I still love the medicine part of it, but we talked before, I kind of went down like the functional medicine journey with myself, and I was like, why are we not doing this with pets? And I over say, if I ever go back into practice, like it would be in that capacity somehow, because there's so much. untapped potential there and I think so much more we could do for our pets. But I talked with colleagues and just people that are burnt out. I'm like, I can help you. Like, let me help you. And that's really where my love shifted for that. So, where did the coaching come from? Did you talk about imposter syndrome and getting more certifications? Did you go get a certification for that so that you could say your, you know what I mean? Did you jump through some hoops to get to that and what were the steps you took there? Yeah, so it was a couple years ago and it was, remember in August I had just back to back relief shifts at this corporate run urgent care, which we talked is just like, you're gonna see 20 appointments today, whether they're sick, really sick or not, like you just gotta get it done. And I was so stressed and I had many of those shifts back to back and I was like having an anxiety attack going into work because I was already preparing for the shit show that it was gonna be. And I literally, had more shifts scheduled with this hospital for a couple months out. And I, same thing, I was like, what am I doing? Like, I don't have to do this. You know, I don't have oodles of money in the bank, but it doesn't even matter at this point because it's my fucking health. So it was kind of that last like rock bottom moment. And I literally went after that shift, I went home, I got on my computer and I canceled all 20 shifts I had. thousands of dollars of money. And I signed up for coaching like the next week. It was a podcast that I had listened to and there was a coaching program. It's not certified because technically you don't have to be certified and there is no governing board for coaching. So when I tell people like when you're looking for a coach, it's what, is that person's journey and You just want someone to coach you. That's a little bit further along than you are in that journey. And so it's really like your life skills. Like if someone has, like I have a coach, you know, like that person is where I want to be in three to five years. And so that's really what you kind of look for in that. So there was some, there was a lot of marketing that went around that. That's more of like what they taught, but yeah, there was a lot of imposter syndrome and it's a little bit. like the Wild West because there really isn't a certification. it's five people on the internet can call themselves a coach and you'll get very varied results and a program from them. So yeah, it's, um, you kind of have to do it and then you, you know, find like, I know what I'm doing and people get results. That's kind of where it comes from. That's trial by fire. Is your primary clientele then uh high achieving individuals? People? is, but. Honestly, it's I would say a vast majority are women, which no offense, but most women. All women are high achievers like it's it's just that mentality, right? Like you said, like I'm taking care of my husband and my kids and I'm going to do this and that. And so we inadvertently all become overachievers because that's how we we kind of run our lives. So those are that's mostly my clientele. Yeah. I have, we have a daughter and I actually, I'm so impressed with her. And you're right. She, women are high achievers because you know, she's 25 or she'll be 25. So she grew up in a different time, but there's still the same kind of bullshit going on. It's more subtle. It's not as in your face. I, when I just, I'm super impressed with her, you know, and it's remarkable. And she does have a different, she has to be slightly higher achiever, sadly. Yeah, no, it's still built in. So, and I agree with everything you said about our daughter, by the way. m So, when, you went through that process and then how did you start getting clients? Did you, did you already kind of have your eye on a few people that you were like, I know I can help these people and you reached out to them or what did you do? No, I started the coaching and then was like, all right, I have to coach some people. uh There's a large veterinary conference in Orlando every year, like 30,000 veterinarians. And so I had a booth at like the convention hall, which was, I'm an introvert. That was like, I had to take like a week long vacation after that. I was like, I don't want to talk to anyone. I don't want to see anyone. I'm so fucking tired. Yes. And 30,000 people in that massive place. You have to be out there saying hi and just shoot, shoot. Yeah. sweaty. it was, but it was when I'm talking to people though, like I enjoy the conversation, you know, but it's, kind of try to be professional and everything. And so I got some clients through that and then it's kind of referral, you know, word of mouth too. But yeah, that's a hard part is like you, but now I see people like I'm in a lot of Facebook groups and I see people saying stuff and I'll like, Hey, I was where you're at, this is what I experienced. Like I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but I just want to know, like want you to know that there's a solution. And most people are like, oh, tell me more. And then the other half, think just honestly, and I get it, I was there, but they just want to complain. Like they're in that place that you're fucking miserable. You're in the victim mentality and you kind of just want to sit with it because getting out of that feels so hard. And I get it. I did it for years. It's uncomfortable to change. Sometimes the misery is a habit. You're comfortable there. You know what to expect and getting yourself out of it. And you have to be to that point to accept the help from anybody. So I just think how old were you then last year um when you started this? How old were you when you went to the convention and put yourself out 41. That's amazing. I mean, because you had followed this path, honestly, since graduating high school, your whole path was vet, vet med, Working your ass off for for over 20 years. And then to have the courage. Well, first of all, just even recognize, OK, I'm not happy. Why am I not happy? Identifying why you're not happy like you had to go through so much self. reflection, self-awareness, introspection, um self-diagnosis, all of that. And then to have the courage to say, OK, I'm going to leave this thing I've been doing for over 20 years and I'm successful at it. I'm too successful at it. I'm so successful at it that it's killing me. You know, and I have to get out of it because I'm too good at it. And I'm going to go try something completely new to help other people. And it's just amazing that you had the courage to do that and then to go in a place that's like your peers, right? These are a convention. So you're like saying, you know, I'm doing this totally different thing and you have to put that out there knowing that some of them are going to judge you. m got a lot of, so what credentials do you have? Because everyone's like, are you a therapist? And I'm like, no. It's like a puzzle piece. Everyone, they all kind of fit together. Like I said, I had a therapist for many years. Truthfully, the biggest thing that I experienced and I hear from other people is that I just kept having the same thought patterns over and over again. Like, I'm very self-aware that I'm a people pleaser, you know, but like, we're not getting to a solution of how to solve that, you know, and that's, that's where I turned to coaching. But yes, it was, it was very, like, I had to like call myself and be like, people are going to ask this and I'm going to be okay with whatever they say because there's social workers there that work at some of the veterinary schools. And they were actually very nice and very accommodating, but I was like, that's that imposter syndrome for sure. But. If anything, I just was like, I want to provide someone with the expansion to know that if this is something that you're interested in, not coaching, but just doing something different that you can do it. Like we are so like, okay, a doctor, veterinarian, we're so used to what that is. That's very acceptable in our society. Believe me, the comments that I've got, like you do what? You left what to like I had a family member be like, well, that was a waste of an education. That was nice. Yes. I was like, okay. Yeah. I'm sure that you had. Well, sometimes our people closest to us are our biggest haters. know, that's you know, they're the you'll realize your family members are the ones not liking your social media. It's like you. And I've had people that I'm close to say, yeah, I saw that. And I'm thinking you didn't like it. Yes, yes, actually, yes, yes. But that's when I mean, that's where I think intent is so important. I'm a big believer that if it doesn't really matter what the results are, if your intention is pure and authentic and this is your path and this is your journey and you know it in your soul and it feels right, then it's all going to work out because that's where you're supposed to be. And if you worry too much about what people think and the results. before you even get there, that's the self-sabotage. And I think self-sabotage is a huge part of the burnout, right? Yeah, because to your point, think that intention is huge because intention is we're not trained that way, right? We're always focused on the end goal. And so you might've killed yourself in the process, but you got to the end goal instead of, hey, maybe you didn't get to where I wanted to, but I had a really great journey there and I learned a lot. Like that feels so different. And Intention is absolutely a huge aspect of that that I think isn't talked about, but self-sabotage, 100%. So what I sometimes work with clients is like the lady I had today, she is really fabulous artist, but she's doing bookkeeping and no shade to bookkeepers. But she's like, I had a really stressful job. I left it. I became a bookkeeper. And honestly, it's a job. Like I don't hate it. I don't love it, but it, you know, that was what it's supposed to do, but her real love is passion and this is art. And I said, okay, what, what is keeping you from doing that? And she's like, well, you know, growing up, my dad's like, well, you can do it as a hobby. You're not going to make money at it. Or you are, you know, she has like the starving artist, you know, it's like comes to mind for her or that's not really a career. So I'm like, okay, let's dive into that. So literally it came down to, again, the self-worth thing. And, you know, to put herself out there and have the potential for rejection or humiliation, especially, you know, if you're on social media, you will self-sabotage yourself every single time. And I did it for myself a lot, but what happens is that's where we have to rewire our brain and our subconscious brain. We don't realize this is 95 % of like our beliefs, our emotions, our thoughts. So. The 5 % that's conscious is like our logical thinking and analytical. And so we don't realize that if we go to do like, say you're going to go make a speech in front of 5,000 people, you've never done that. Oh geez, that's going to be pretty nerve wracking. The thoughts that go through your head was, are they going to think about me? They're going to judge me. I'm going to fall like all those things. You're going to eventually convince yourself that you shouldn't be doing this and you're not going to do it. And it's like, okay. Those are beliefs that you've told yourself, but they're not really true. Like we think in our mind that we found stuff that supports it, but we don't. And so some of that goes, most of it goes back to that childhood too. And picking up on what, you know, our parents, which no shade to them, they didn't know any better, but you better not go do coaching and leave your career. Like that's not safe. So if it's not safe, it's not familiar. We stay where we're at, like you said, even though we're miserable, because doing this other thing is not, it doesn't resonate with us subconsciously. And, but the shitty thing is it's subconscious, so we're not aware of it. So that's the hard part, but it can be reprogrammed, which I think is the coolest thing. Yeah. And did you say you're saying 95 % is subconscious? Five is interesting. No, but I agree. I totally agree. Because it's almost like our subconscious is the key to self-sabotage. If you you reprogram your brain, you reprogram your subconscious, you remove self-sabotaging from it's into some Freudian and young stuff. gets out of the picture. yeah, so there's many different ways to do it. I actually did go through a certification for this, but it was very specific, okay, but I did. it, um we basically, so we were talking before how you have like a fight with someone, an emotion, but you don't deal with it it just goes away. Well, what we do and we reprogram is we get back into when that first emotion, what's tied to whatever that belief is, came up. And sometimes it's in our childhood. Sometimes if you believe in it, it's a past life, if that's something you believe in, or it's generational. And we go back and it's kind of trippy, because you don't have to be on drugs or anything, but you get like kind of in a little bit of a meditative state. You're just relaxed. And we reprogram it like, what are you seeing? Explain it to me. What would you have want to have experienced? And then we reprogram that. And then we anchor that in by doing not really affirmations, I'm not a big fan of those, some, you hear neuroplasticity, right? Like we're making new neuro pathways and we make them for the things that we want, not the negative self-sabotage and things. And so that works crazily good. It's kind of, and that's why it's similar, I think to EMDR, some people say that therapists will do, but I wasn't, like I said, I wasn't getting any like actual actionable tools and things to do from therapy. And so I kind of went down this rabbit hole. I'm like, this just logically makes sense to me. The other part that I didn't know until recently, a years ago, are there's a lot of research on this. The generational trauma, we hear that term a lot, it's literally carried in our DNA. So people that have had past relatives like in... wars and there's genocide and all that, that they never really personally knew. They were experiencing trauma from these people, not knowing what they really experienced. And it's that part of it. Like, so that's why sometimes it feels so strong. It's cause it's probably not even yours. It's just carried. Isn't that crazy? And there's, like I said, there's research. think that's accurate. Because if you go through that extreme trauma of a genocide or something like that, it absolutely modifies your DNA, your genome. But then when you reproduce, obviously it gets carried on. That's interesting. it's in the cells, right? It comes from cell door of activity, yeah. I'll tell you a book because I was my medical brain was like, show me the research, you know. And ah it's called, It Didn't Start With You is the name of the book. And it's by Mark Wolin, W-O-L-Y-N-N. And that has not him specifically, but he talks a lot about the research that's out there. And I'm like, Why are we not talking about this like in therapy? Like if we're not fixing that, we're just chasing our tail. You know, I felt and I hear that from a lot of people too. And what it sounds like you're doing when you're taking people kind of back to whatever that pinpoint that you're almost like they're healing it, but they're they're finding closure to you're helping them find closure with the situation. And then what what do you need to heal from this? Like almost like validation, validate it, validate how you're feeling because of this. Let's find closure. Let's heal from it. Does that make sense? Am I understanding you? yeah, because a lot of what if we go back to like this and so I'll give you an example like as a kid, if you raise your hand, you're in second grade and the teacher calls on you and you get the answer wrong and everyone laughs at you, that little seemingly innocent situation, that's where like things like that start. And so you start to learn it's not comfortable, it's not safe to speak out. or you fear rejection, and then your brain is aware of that. So now every experience you have that you encounter, your brain is doing that through that lens of, well, I shouldn't do that because that's not safe. Well, you can see how limiting that can be. So we realize when we go back to that memory that like what we experienced and feeling rejected or judged isn't really ours. Like it was just, how we thought it was in the moment. So when we kind of realized that, yeah, there's a lot of validation there, like, yeah, yeah, that looks different than it did when it happened. And it totally ties to imposter syndrome because you have enough of that. Those feelings it creates that that imposter syndrome, like, am I to go up and speak? And it could come all the way back from that moment that started that. And then you have enough of those little moments that creates a foundation for that fear, that anxiety, that insecurity. Now you have the imposter syndrome. And so then which stops you from trying anything new? It totally uh stops growth as a person. yeah. And that's why you can see, but though it lives in your subconscious. So if you don't know that, you're just going through life being like, I don't want to public speak. That looks awful. Well, geez, it was probably like, it's almost tied to like your survival in a way. So yeah, it's like, I've done it with a practitioner before, because I've done it myself. And I was like, wow, I'm not getting anywhere. She's like, you yourself can only go so far as like your ego will allow you. So that's why having someone else ask those right questions to really get down to like, okay, what is the real root of this and reprogramming the correct thing is important. help you live your authentic life, your purpose, because it's very easy, as we already have talked about, to get stuck in the one path for you, vet medicine. ah But you could easily have stayed there and that would have been your whole life experience, right? But as so many people do. She's programmed differently. Well, no, but she found that. But what I'm saying is like people There are people who just follow the one path and are the imposter syndrome and all the other things stop them from taking a chance on maybe this other path that they are supposed to be doing, but they're not. And so then they're unhappy subconsciously, but they don't know why they're unhappy subconsciously, which could then lead to depression, anxiety, mental illness, all these other things, um gaining weight, know, autoimmune disease, self-medicating. It's all tied together. Yeah, there was a study done, you could Google it, but it was women experience, I think it's like up to 10 times more autoimmune diseases. And they link it to like people pleasing. Like it is, so to go back to like the emotion doesn't leave your body, there's an, it's interesting, it's women, know, like there's something to be said for that. tell you something, I am just so impressed. I'm impressed with what you did. I really am. think you're an inspiration, especially for um women hitting midlife. um What you did, I'm impressed by all women who are hitting midlife and taking these chances to really follow their authentic path because it's not easy. It requires a lot of courage. It requires so much ah just confidence that we were not given, right? We've tried, like I'll say for Brian and I, think there's a lot of Gen Xers have tried to break the generational trauma and tried to be the people that we needed for our children and are trying and try to raise children with confidence and self-esteem to a fault. Gen Xer know we're helicopter parents. We know that we know. But the pendulum had to go one way. OK, we're going to find some balance. So we understand we know what we did. But we do have some pretty kick-ass kids, right? Like a lot of our kids are very confident. They are showing up in the workplace and saying, no, I want this, and that's pissing people off, but we gave them a voice, right? So, but for us, no one gave us that voice. None of this was given to us. We've had to claim it. We've had to search it out and be like, no, now is my time. I'm gonna give that to myself. No one gave that to me. So I think it's a very courageous path when it's taken. And I just, I love the fact that you were 41 when you started this. Cause for so many of us, we were in our 50s when we- you're young. You're ahead. Yeah, it's awesome. You're ahead of the game. You can start the second half of your life in your 40s with energy and yeah. I don't know. Go ahead. that's listening to this is you don't need to wait for permission. And that's the other piece. Like, and sometimes we think permission from family members or like your colleagues, like what are they gonna think? Listen, everyone thinks I'm talking crazy. So I'm still here, you know, like I had all those thoughts too, but don't let, the other thing too is don't take advice from someone that isn't where you want to be because That's where a lot of our close friends, they have great, like you said, great intentions, but they can't see our vision for ourselves, and that's okay, but don't let that be the rate-limiting step for you not doing and stepping into your purpose. Well, of those closest to you might be trying to fix something and you don't need a fix. You need a, maybe assistance, not a solution per se, but support to go and take on something else. uh I have a question though for you. When I say that I don't think you could have seen the path, it's not who you are, right? You had the change and you did hit a point where you had physical and mental. health issues, right? It was taxing and whatever that manifested itself uh physically in your physical health. So you had to change. And you said something earlier around, it's never too late to change. You know, the bookkeeper wanting to become an artist. Do you ever come across folks though where I'm a big believer in what you're saying there and you know, someone like myself, it's like the world's changing fast. I'm in IT, I do technology stuff. What was going on 10 years ago is totally different. What was going on five weeks ago is a little different. Now there's this hyper fast evolution happening. So my question is, ah do you come across folks where you tell them you have to change or like it's a definitive statement, like you have to change because what you're doing today will be obsolete. I don't know if you've. across that bridge yet with someone, is it more the why don't you try this? Have you had that definitive statement of you really need to change because you're not gonna be a professional football player or whatever. oh yeah, yeah. Um, I don't say that because if someone said that to me, I'd probably punch him in the throat. You know what I mean? Like it, we, I believe me, I've wanted to, but if they don't see that for themselves or have that passion, that means they might not know that the path to get there, but they don't have that passion. Then it's, it's kind of a viewpoint. So I usually say, okay, this is what you want. And you're here. why, like our next step is this, what's holding you back? Well, and it usually comes down to several, not that many things, right? Like, well, what are people gonna think? There's a fear of judgment, there's a fear of disappointment, I'm gonna disappoint my family. There's a, like it all comes down to like several of those. And what I tell people is like, when you hear this, if you're listening to this episode, and you're like, that's a lot of work. It's not, what it is is we are all inherently, I believe this, like, We have this core of us that is just inherently good. Most of us want to do good for ourselves in the world. But then it's like that analogy of an onion, right? We have all these layers and those layers of all those shadows that we picked up over the years for childhood, probably from previous generations, and they're just layered on and that's keeping us stuck. So it's not like you have to change and be another person. We're just peeling the layers away. Like it's there. We just have to get a little bit closer and it's a journey. I remember asking my therapist, the typical type A wound retriever, so when do I finish? She's like, huh? And I'm like, yeah, when do know I'm good? I'm healed. She's like, oh, Amber, that doesn't happen. You're like, always, I remember being so mad, so mad. So that's what I tell people is there's not an end part. Is that moving that post? Well, we can't move it if it doesn't exist. It's just getting a little bit better than we were the day before. and peeling back a layer. like, you'll clear the fear of rejection, but it will come up in a different way. But you'll be further along on your path and you'll recognize it and then you clear it. So I usually try to walk people down that path because I see so many people that have so much potential, but I can't, if they're not there in their head space, because again, if someone told me that. when I was really burnt out, again, I'd be like, no, this is my career. Like, leave me alone. This is what I'm doing. You know what I mean? so it's it's a, it's a path, I think, and a process. you reach a point in your um vet career where you felt like you weren't an imposter? That you, I got this, I'm not an imposter. Yeah, you know what's funny about that is I did and then like two days later, something awful would happen and I would be like, maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was. Or there's something that I was like, how did I not know that? Or a colleague would say something and you're like, shit, they're smart. So it's like, it's that one step forward, two steps back. And that kind of fucks with you a little bit too, because just when you think you're like, all right, I got it. There's something, because it's just. You know, nothing's perfect and it's practice and shit happens, stuff that's out of your control, but somehow it's hard to be like, I should have known that, or I should have predicted that. it's, so I wish I did, but. especially with living organisms, right? You're treating ailments and disease on a living creature that can't talk. Yeah. with a client who's probably doesn't always tell you all the information, whether they're aware of it or not. Sometimes we just don't know. And I've been on podcasts and they're like, all right, for veterinarians that are listening to this, like, what would you recommend for a new cred coming out? I'm like, you don't want to hear this is like the worst advice, but it's like, you're not responsible for the pet getting better. you inadvertently the pet gets better because you have expertise and your experience and you make very educated recommendations and treatments. But ultimately you can do all that by the book that doesn't and it happens that doesn't mean that pet gets better but that also doesn't mean you failed. I have to like explain it. It's like the worst you know but that makes sense. That makes sense. I feel like I'm trained to lie to a vet. I think everybody has. Have you been walking him? yeah. Two and a half miles a day in the morning, again at night. Meanwhile, he's sleeping all day. oh Not Floyd. He's on his watch. that chocolate incident once, right? It's like, yeah, we know we were on. Yeah, they ate chocolate. You were talking about that path. It's like it's that you're taking your clients down. It's almost like a path to their authentic self, because with each layer, they're getting to the root of them. That's just that that that's what that I've that's what I visualized when you talked about that. I think that's a great way to explain your coaching, because there isn't an end. You're not like graduating. You're not getting a report card. It's a journey. And you don't need to make leaps and bounds because that can be very overwhelming, especially like you said, if somebody's just kind of dipping their toe in, you don't scare them and push them in the pool. I'm a tough lover. Yeah. Well, but you're an avoidant, too. So let's not even go there. But so like you're you're every every time a little bit of layers taken off, that's a victory. You know, and you're getting to know yourself. even closer to knowing who you are. And for women, I think that's huge, because no one's ever taken the time to even be curious. We don't even know to be curious about what's under our layers, because no one's ever made us feel that our layer getting there is important. yeah, and it's always like you're you're broken. So fix yourself. And that's like, we were like, okay, like, like I said, when am I fix? And so that's why I like to bring people along the path. I don't want to be behind you pushing you. I don't want to be in front of you dragging you. I'm next to you next to you, because I've been there. Now what is coming up for you? And that's, that's really having someone that's gone through that. And that's where, like for myself, having like my therapist was great, but she hadn't been burnt out and she's never been a veterinarian. know, like she never, she had a lot of accolades and worked really hard, but it was just different. Cause I remember talking about boundaries and she's like, Amber, just, know, you need to step away for lunch and 30, 45 minutes. And I'm like, okay, I'm working the ER and I'm the only doctor there. I can't leave the building. I'm not going to go out to lunch for 45. You know, like it was, and I, so, When I talk to people, like, I like to do like actionable things that you can do in real life. Like what, whether you're in vet, that or not, like what is feasible. But it's that persistence. There's a book, the compound effect, you've ever heard of it. And it talks about how little bit on a consistent basis will take you leaps and bounds further than, you know, it's kind of like going to the gym, right? Like if you go and you work out like, all right, did like, you know, went to the gym five times this month or 10 times this month and I'm sore and like, what's going on? Then I give up. But if you went a little bit every time, it's like compound interest. That's the best way. You we all know what that is. And we see there, that's a good thing. It's a benefit. So it's looking at it through that lens too, which sometimes is hard for like overachievers. like, no, no, no. Like, like I worked with a fitness coach and I was on the phone with her she's like, what can you commit to? I'm like four times a week. I'll be there. She's like, Okay, let's start like to, you know, like, cause I was going to fail at that. And she knew that I didn't know that. it's, it's, um, flow steady, consistent is, will take you so much further than trying to do it all. then burning out. being totally present in the process and not ahead to try to get to the end, but be present. Have you had, is there anyone, a client you can think of where you went through the process and they did have the shift and it changed the way they look at their job or life or anything? Yeah, I had a client, was in clinical practice and then she got burnt out and she went into academia as a veterinarian. Just like I went to relief work being like, this will be the solution, right? And I found her when she was in academia and she's like, my God, it's the same shit. Like I'm dealing, it's just, it's not clients, it's my coworkers and going through that whole thing. And so we worked together and uh she, God, she killed it. She like was setting boundaries. She had. an assistant that wasn't doing shit and they didn't, you there was like, she wasn't really in control of what that was, but we made, I'm like, well, what's her job description? Like, let's set that, you know, like try to give her real actionable stuff. It isn't like the fruity stuff we want to, you know, think about it. It's like, what the fuck can you do at work tomorrow? So she actually went back into clinical practice after we worked together. And that was huge. Yeah. Yeah. Did she call you and be like, hey, thank you so much. I'm, going back. uh because she's like, well, now I'm putting my notice in, but now I'm interviewing now I'm scared because do I don't want to end up the same thing. I'm like, well, you already know, like what it was important to you and what you're looking for. I'll, I did. So when I was a medical director and I helped my boss at the time with those other practices, we did a lot of hiring and firing, but hiring and working with contracts. So I have that as well. So I kind of helped her navigate through that too. So yeah, it was, it was awesome. It really cool. awesome. you thought about, um cause you'd be so good with people that work under pressure, like you were saying, the ER vet. Have you thought about um really focusing on ER nurses, doctors, that paramedics, first responders, cops, all that. Have you thought about kind of getting more focused on, cause that is very similar to what you were doing. Yeah, I'm I'll be honest, I, I would love to coach any one of those people. Like, I'm totally open to that. Like, if someone's listening, I, my marketing coach is like, just for the sake of like, getting your message out, you have to focus at least on like social media for one because if you're talking to everyone, you're talking to no one. So my social media presence is more veterinary focused, but It is kind of all the same in the sense of like how we're wired, what is stressful for us. So I, if anyone's listening, I would love to work with someone totally. can have a conversation of what that, what that looks like because my, my coach said the same thing. She's like, you're like every entrepreneur you're like have 20 ideas before breakfast and you're trying to do them all at the same time. She's like, but that's great, but you'll get nowhere. So let me help you. So, so that's why. I could see you working with executives, C-suite folks that are just burnt and smart, high achievers type A, know, think a lot of subconsciously, but are just in a rut, burnt out. That's your niche, right? The burnt out person is your niche. Burn out. It's just some burnout. I do have to ask, because I'm sure you've been asked a gazillion times about your saddest cases. So I'm not going to ask you about your saddest case. But what would you say one of your happiest cases was when you were a vet? When you were a vet? Not sure. OK. There was a dog, of course it was like a pity mix. So my favorite came into the ER and it was young. It was like two or three and he was just really down and lethargic. And I'm like, this isn't good. I lift up his gums and he's like white as a sheet. And I'm like, okay, he's leaving somewhere. You have to kind of think of like his age and whatever. So. I examine him, I put the ultrasound, he's got a huge splenic mass and he's bleeding internally. And I'm like, this is, know, if he's 14, that might be a different conversation, but we don't, there's actually new research out now. I actually don't know the latest statistic, but half of those historically are cancerous or two thirds of them are cancerous. And so I'm like, well, it's a three year old dog. That's kind of weird. Like we see eight year olds that have the benign stuff that grows, but I don't know. So we had a long discussion again, never met these people. Hi, I'm going to do surgery on your dog. So I'm on the floor with that, you know, just trying to connect with these people. And they're like, all right, let's do it. Like we're ready for surgery. Let's do it. I'm like, okay. So meanwhile, I'm like, it's been a while since I've done this. Right. So I had a couple of books out, my texts are fabulous. So we go in there, I take out the screen and He obviously was losing blood, but it's in his abdomen. It's not in his blood vessels where it should be. So we'd given him blood, but we were running out. So I auto transfused. So while I was in surgery, actually sucked the blood out of his belly and we run it through a filter. Now that blood doesn't have clotting factors. So it doesn't help with clotting, but it's volume. You want volume in the blood vessels because that keeps your blood pressure up. And I could give them fluids, but it just dilates out your blood. So my fabulous technician, I'm like trying to do math in my head, do the surgery. And that's when I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? Like, how am I get to this point in my life? You know what I mean? Like you're stressed, but it's cool. But you're freaking out. And so um we took the spleen out and he lived. He did great um except we sent the spleen out and it was cancerous. So they ended up euthanizing, but it was, yeah. So it was sad, but I was like. Okay, would I do that again? Like I didn't know, right? The owners didn't know if I knew it was cancer, that would be a different conversation. But given what I knew at the time, that's the biggest way to know, you know, like we always have hindsight is 2020 and we always second guess ourselves, but I'm like, you can't make the decision now with the information you have now, go back to where you were. And I was like, I would have made the same recommendations. I would have done the same thing. So, but at least they got, yeah, he went through surgery and they spent the money, but. They got a few days with him at least and they were thankful for that. So that went on for six months. you had to do that because you couldn't have said, I think you should put your three year old, you couldn't have lived with yourself because you would have been wondering, could he have been safe? You had to do it. Well, I think the salient point you're making there is you make the best decision you can with the information you have available and you don't look back. And that's part of making big decisions in life and in business and in that in medicine. Yeah, but it's hard, though, when you're dealing with I know, I know. then, you know, like owners come back. I mean, they were, they were understanding, but owners come back and are like, you know, they're upset and I'm like, well, we know information now that we didn't have then. But I also, that's what I coach some doctors through is like, hold on. It's very easy to get on yourself and be like, why didn't I know this or why, you know, you can use that in almost any case that you see, but you're, that's not apples to apples. We're not comparing the same thing. You're doing good work. You're giving medicine to those vets that are burnout. You're giving them a different type of medicine. In fact, you're treating the vets now, not the fur babies. But it ultimately turns into better health care for the animals. Yeah. exactly, I had a little bit of having that identity crisis. I then was like, well, I love pets. That's why I got into this. Like that's my love. But I was like, wait a minute, I am helping them because if we get more people that are comfortable and thrive in this profession, then we can help more pets. And that's, I had to come to that realization and I'm like, okay, I can do that. That works for me.% because like we talked about before, they need to connect with the owner, you know, in order to for the pet to be how it all works together. And it is psychological. And if they're burnout and have nothing left in the tank and are full of resentment for all these different reasons, eventually that comes out to the owners and then you lose business. So it's and that doesn't help the pet. Pets don't help, which everybody that's the end goal for everybody. So. No, I think it's amazing that you've taken. So in a way you're still kind of on the vet med journey. Yeah, totally. And like you said before, you needed to do that to get where you are now. You wouldn't be able to serve the way you are now if you didn't go through it and you want you can talk the talk as you walk the walk. And like you said, you know, when you're with your therapist, it's not like she's been in veterinary medicine. She's saying, go and have lunch for 45 minutes. But when you're helping other vets, other doctors, they can trust you because you lived it. So and trust is so huge, too. So then they're more apt to listen to you because they know you've you've been there where they have where they are now. That's huge. I think. trust is everything. Yeah. I was just going to say it's a natural evolution, I think, of the field in that there is the burnout. There's never been attention to medical or mental stress or illness. I don't want to say illness, right? It's not an illness, it's stress. Burnout. It's burnout. And so this is probably a natural evolution that you're filling a real need. Whether people know it or not, they can use your guidance, your coaching. veterinarians, women veterinarians have three to four times higher suicide rate than the average public. More than MDs, even dentists, we always hear about dentists. And actually, I just read a statistic the other day, male technicians, veterinary technicians are five times more likely to, and it's the culmination of everything we've talked about. It's the raging debt, but your return on investment wasn't that. like you're not making 400 grand a year. And you have, then you maybe work for corporate and you're stressed because now you can't help this pet because corporate wants you to do X, Y, and Z. And so, and truthfully, we, we euthanize pets and we see it as a very peaceful passing most of the time. And so access to some of those drugs being. much more accessible makes like it's kind of a I won't say perfect. It's not perfect obviously, but it's a perfect storm of things coming together and that's huge. that. That makes sense. And also the natural stress of you do lose you do lose patience. There are sad situations that the normal general public does not have to see that would tear all of us to pieces to see it once in our life. But vets are seeing stuff. It's like ER docs that are seeing stuff that, you know, so that goes into play, too. yeah, and ER is the worst. Like I did that for five years and dabbing, shootings, alligator attacks, uh dog fights. It's like those catastrophic things, uh boating accidents. I won't even go into what that looked like. And yeah, you compartmentalize. We were talking about that. You can do it to a certain degree. And I know I did, but then like you come home and you like really start thinking about it. And you're like, that was fucked up. like that and then you just, yeah, it's the compassion fatigue fits into that too. compassion fatigue. That's that's what I mean. And also, I'm sure it affects uh personal relationships, right? Because if you've come compartmentalize enough, it's hard to remember how to open back up again to someone and be vulnerable because you're like, no, I do this. I don't know that anymore. I'm shut down. Yeah. So it's like. most of the time you come home and you're like on the couch like, okay, like, I, know, I don't know if you ever had like a crazy day either at work or whatever. And then I used to find myself driving home and I'm like, Whoa, I don't have the radio on like, there's no noise. Like you're just, and you then you get home and you don't even know how you got home. So it's just like that whole thing too. Yeah, yeah. is another big Gen X elder millennial. one of our number one tools to get through our childhood. I'm just going to disconnect now. That's where I'm going to go, because we just did it. And so it's easy for us when life gets crazy, instead of peeling back the layers, our go to is nice. Disconnect. No big deal. Yeah, it's worked for my whole life. That's funny. You know, my oldest cannot understand if we get in the car together. The first thing he does is go to the radio. He can't understand why I can ride from like here to Tallahassee over to Tampa without the radio on. And it would just be like, he can't relate to it. And it's like, it's just quiet. It's quiet. I want peace. I'm like that. I was not always like that. I was always a person that have a TV on or do something. now I'm like, but truthfully, some people don't want to be with their thoughts and what is going on in their head. We don't realize that when we do it. We're like, oh, that's kind of boring. it's like, I think now with as much personal development that I do, I go down that rabbit hole and I start analyzing my thoughts. If you're not equipped with that, it could feel really uncomfortable or you're not used to it, right? Like nowadays, everything is noise. Our phones, our TV, that like there's never not noise. And that I think makes it harder to. And then there's I know I've known people that are always doing, doing, doing, doing. They never want to be home and still or they're always with other people, you know, like they they don't want to be alone or so it's you're always running. It's usually from your thoughts and your issues or whatever. So do you have any more questions before I ask my last question? I love being in my thoughts. don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Have you one? Book recommendation, Carl Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul. Have you ever read that? if not, it's worth checking out. Yeah, I heard it's good. I have heard that, but that's when I haven't. I've got a running list, though, so I'm gonna put that on the list of books. We do too, actually. It's slowly growing. Well, and as guests give recommendations, we add that and we're like, we can read that and then we'd like to talk about it. So I'm glad you recommended some books because I'm going to add it to our list. So I don't think I have any questions. I find your journey like she was saying earlier, really fascinating and remarkable. Kudos to you for being so young figuring this out and then pivoting to really providing a service back to other people. And it's just really cool. I wish you the best of luck with it all. think it's awesome. Hopefully people are watching and that this resonates with and reaches out to you. It's really cool. thank you. Thank you so much for that. That means a lot and I appreciate that and love being a guest too. I love this chat. yeah, it's been great. think I look at what you're doing as a pioneer. This is revolutionary. And I think especially for the, in the vet med field, you know, this could be the beginning of uh a resource that's needed all over the country, you know, and kind of like you talked about social workers and all that, but this particular stress and burnout specialty coaching applied to the vet med world, um I could see it growing and you're, you're the forefront of it. So, I hope so. Thank you. And I view it as an expansion of your vet career. Yeah, totally. 100%. So anyone who's giving you crap about this, they're not seeing the big picture here. It's all connected. It's all connected. So my last question is always, where do you see yourself in five years? I love this. ah Well, just what you were saying, part of my dream would also be to now teach this in veterinary school. Like we're kicking these poor souls out into the world. And, you know, there's that pretty glossy kind of the corporate type stuff of self care and work-life balance. Like, but what are we, we're giving them real tools. And so I would love for that to be a mainstay in every veterinary. school and have that be a very standardized curriculum too because it does vary from school to school and I think speaking, writing, writing books, writing social media content and just getting that awareness out there and not just in the veterinary community but I would hope like on a larger platform would be my ideal. Love that. I think you're on your way. And when you get that book done, if you'd like to come on to promote it, we would love to have you back. Yeah, alright, now I gotta get it done. Wait, you're not done yet? Come on. It's not like you haven't been doing anything for the last 20 years. You got to get it together. I know, you know, I'm doing like 20 things at once before breakfast. That's usually, yep. of course. So but yeah, you're always welcome back. So you just let us know and look. I think it's a great um premise, the idea for the book. It's great. I think that people would love would love that. So and you probably have so so many stories and so much to share. So but for our listeners, um we will put Dr. Amber Park's information um in the show notes. So if you want to reach her, everything will be in the show notes. You can also leave any questions, comments on social media. We will make sure she sees it and gets back to you. Again, thank you so much for being a guest. We loved having you. Yes, thank you so much. And yeah, anyone that's interested, I usually will do like a 45 minute call to like we get on a call, let's talk about it. Let's make sure this is a fit for everyone. It's not, you we all want to make sure that it's mutually beneficial too. So. Perfect. And all the information you gave us is the best way for them to reach you, Okay, excellent. And as always, if you have any questions for Brian and I, we will get back to you. Thank you for listening and we will see you next time. Bye.