Episode 48 - GenX Speaks Series: Author Jaime Townzen Artwork

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GenX Adulting Podcast

Episode 48 - GenX Speaks Series: Author Jaime Townzen

September 30, 2025 • Brian & Nicole • Season 2 • Episode 48

In this episode we welcome author and artist Jaime Townzen. Jaime shares about her upbringing in Southern California, that included her parent’s divorce and subsequent remarriages that resulted in her babysitters becoming her step-sisters. Jaime reveals how the role of being a high achiever both aided her and at times sabotaged her as the weight of people’s expectations continued to pile on throughout most of her life. We touch on typical GenX topics that include lack of parental support when it came to extracurriculars as well as handling the college application process on our own. We learn about Jaime’s time at UCLA where she briefly considered pre-med before realizing the importance of pursuing her true passion of writing. A transfer to University of Redlands led to meeting her future husband as well as an amazing experience in Austria studying abroad. A move to Sacramento resulted in a stint teaching 4th grade, that included navigating the unique experience of being a teacher on 9/11. Shortly after marrying her husband, they moved to Pasadena where Jaime found a career in nonprofit marketing and advertising. Eventually she became a mother to two beautiful girls while at the same time unknowingly beginning a long journey of caretaking, loss and grief. The shutdown of the world in 2020 due to Covid offered a form of respite for Jaime where she was able to create a space for herself to use watercolor as a form of self-preservation and prioritization. Through her art, her creativity sparked, bloomed and grew to a place where her talent for writing could be honored. From that, her coming of age novel “Absorbed” was born. Set in the 90s, “Absorbed” promises to resonate with GenX and Millennials alike, but also with their children as well. Touching on such topics as consent and women’s reproductive rights intertwined with the teenage experience, “Absorbed” is sure to be a bridge between generations. Jaime also shares sage advice on setting boundaries as a form of self-care, as well as the importance of integrating some form of creativity into your daily life every single day. We thoroughly enjoyed our time with Jaime and were enthralled not only with her story, but her amazing resilience and strength combined with immense creative wisdom. We encourage our readers to check out her book “Absorbed” and stop by her website to peruse her artwork. We look forward to having Jaime return to the studio when her next novel is released!

Check Out Jaime at:
Web Site: https://jaimetownzen.com
Shop: https://jaimetownzen.com/shop/
https://www.tiktok.com/@jaimegetscreative/
https://www.instagram.com/jaimegetscreative/
https://youtube.com/@jaimetownzen/
https://www.facebook.com/jaime.townzen/

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[MUSIC]Welcome to GenX Adulting,and today we have Jamie Townsend with us.Welcome, Jamie.Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.It's nice to meet you both.Absolutely. It's nice to meet you too.I should mention Jamie isan author and an artist,which we will get to later in addition tomany other hats that she wears.Our first question is always,what year were you born?I was born in 1979,very close to the tail end of GenX.Yeah.We did.Yes.We tried and I think somepeople even like your GenX,but you also fall intothe zennial group too.Yeah. I definitely have friends on bothsides of that timeline.I think because I havesiblings that are all older than me,I always leaned much moreinto GenX than I did millennial.I always just the music,the pop culture, everything was the olderrather than the younger end of it.I think that's true of a lot of GenXers whowere the younger siblings,that even though they're closer to theolder millennial years,they do identify more with GenX just fromthe influence of their older siblings.For sure.Where were you born?I was born in OrangeCounty, Southern California.Okay.I've traveled a lot,but I've pretty much stayed right herebecause I just love it.I was going to sayyou're a native Californian.I am. I've lived all over the state.I love all areas of the state,but I am a very proud Californian.It would take a lot to get me to move away.What's the furthest north you've lived?My husband and I got married when we wereliving in Sacramento after college.He grew up a little, like an hour north ofSacramento is where he grew up.I did. Yeah, I'd say that's probably thefurthest north I've lived.So if you don't mind measking, what town did he grew up in?It's a small littlerice town called Calusa,which people who buy their rice at Costcooften recognize the nameCal Rose rice. Okay. Yeah.And big bags, big whitebags that say Cal Rose.That is all grown in Calusa, California,and it's between Sacramento and Chico.Okay. I've we've driven bythere. There's a question.Yeah. So where we went to college was 20miles north of the California border.So we used to and we're dead heads.So we used to always godown to San Fran for shows,always went to the Redwoods, Arcada, right?And there's Redding out there. We wereactually in Chico, what, like 15 years ago.My sister lives there. Yeah. So but we'veand I've done the from Ashlandwhere we went to school. I dated a guy incollege that lived in L.A.So I did that whole drive.And I think that was a big one.Yeah, I think it was an 11 hour drive,maybe or nine, something like that.But California is one of themost beautiful places on Earth.There's no question.I yeah, I have to agree.If anything that you enjoy doing outdoors,you can do in Californiafrom skiing and mountain climbing tosurfing and hiking and long distancebike riding and all the things. Yeah, it'sit's really a beautiful outdoor state.And I would say 300 ofthe days of the year.We have good weather forit, too. So absolutely.And if you go up north, you even getseasons to work. It's kind of.I actually you don'teven have to go up north.So I grew up most of mychildhood was spent in the foothillsof the San Bernardino Mountains at about a3500 to 4000 foot altitude.And we got the full seasons there. Wow.And it's nice once a year.And that's 70 miles from where I am righthere at the beach in Orange County.So it's not that far.Just people don't realize that it's there.I don't think people realize whatCalifornia has to offer.Because like you said,it has it has a desert.It has everything.And we want it.It is really a treasure of our country.I love California.And I'm from Oregon, whichis also a beautiful state.It's beautiful in the Northwest.But I will say that'smy old stomping grounds.And anytime we used to go.So were your parents fromCalifornia? Are they native?Both both of my parents wereborn outside of California,but both of them, theirparents moved them to Californiawhen they were relatively young.So my dad was born in Arkansas and thenhis parents moved to Orange County.I want to say he was probablyfive or six years old atthe time when they moved him,because he was here whenDisneyland opened in 1955.Oh, wow. So he he wasalready here and present for that.My mom came to Orange County when she was afreshman in high schoolat age 14 from New Jersey.Her parents had lived in Ohio and NewJersey most of her life.And they came up.My grandfather was an engineer and he hadan opportunity out herein California for awhile. So what we're in Jersey.Orange.So there's more.There's these storms.Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Because I know that shealways associated that it was funnythat they were moving from Orange and NewJersey to Orange in California.Brian from Jersey.So we always ask it's pretty close.It's actually pretty close to New York.Yeah. Yeah, that is.So two east coasters move to Californiabasically because Arkansas and Jersey,they're their their families are fromArkansas would be verydeep south more like.Yeah. Still on the east coast.You know what I mean?For a west coaster, it's the east coast.The east coast.Yeah. So they they traveled out west.Yes. Yes.How did how did they meet?Were they in the same town?My dad was two years older than my mom andthey met in high school.He was on the football team.They actually were at the same high schooltogether with Kevin Costner for a year.No way.Mm hmm.And yeah, they were high school sweetheartsand then being raisedfrom very conservative parents.They were sort of forced to marry when mymom graduated high school at 18because she was pregnant at that time.And then she lost that baby andthey were able to stay marriedand not have kids for a long time becausemy dad ended up going to Vietnam and.Oh, wow.And all those things before they actuallyhad my brother and I.So OK, so they graduate.She's pregnant.They get married.She unfortunately loses the baby.And did your dad right out ofhigh school go to work to start?Like, did they go and get their own littleplace or were they living with yourgrandparents?So they immediately got an apartment andwent to Long Beach State.My dad had already done twoyears of community college,and so they were going to LongBeach State at the same time.And my my dad inherited a contractingbusiness from his father.And so at that time, he was learning how tobe a general contractor.And getting all of the different.I don't even know that hefully graduated from college,but he got all of the differentcertificates he needed tobe a general contractor.And then while he waswhen he stopped going toschool, he was immediately draftedfor Vietnam.And so while he was at Vietnam, my mommoved in with his parentsbecause her parents had already leftand she lived with them and actually wentto USC and became a dental hygienist.During the time that my dad was gone, shegot a degree to do that.So when she graduated, shealso went to Long Beach State.Mm hmm. Yeah, they bought it while she waspregnant or had she lost the baby?They got married in September and she lostthe baby within a couple of weeks.And so they immediately were already.Yeah. OK, it was right away.They both enrolled in school.They at Long Beach Stateand graduate from there.Yeah, yeah.She got her bachelor's from Long Beach andthen she got her continuation.It wasn't like a master's or anything, butin dental hygiene from USC.That's that's pretty awesome because thatwasn't completely normalat that time for women to it wasn't it waslike women were going to college,but it wasn't like I knowfor my mom and she's a boomer.I assume your mom's a boomer, right?1950. Yeah. OK, so my mom was 1947.So when she was in high school, even likeit wasn't really discussedamong her friends going to college.So it wasn't how it is for us.So it's pretty cool thatyour mom just went for it.So my mom's mom was way before her time.She had a dual master's inmathematics and fine art.Her fine art master's was from Cornell.And she had four children in three yearsbecause my mom is a twin.So they had a boy and then ayear later they had twin girlsand then a year laterthey had another girl.And so she was a stay at home mom.My grandma was a stay at home mom, but sheused her mathematics degreeto invest all of the moneythat my grandfather earnedand really grow their wealth.And then she was an artist the whole time.She also went to Rutgers tostudy how to be a good gardenerbecause she couldn't just take like thelocal gardening classes.She was just a highly educated person andalways seeking out education.And so and my grandfather also mygrandfather came here from Yugoslaviawhen he was 12 and he got hisengineering degree from Case.And he was always highly pushing education.And when my mom marriedmy dad, he had this hopethat she would become hissecretary in his office.And I think when he went toVietnam, she was very much like,that's never going to happen.I'm going to build myself acareer with degrees of my own.And I'm glad that she did.I'm really glad that she did because theyprobably would have gotten divorceda lot sooner and I would not exist if shehad tried to be his secretary.Yeah, I mean, it's honestly good for her.And did he know she wascontinuing on with her educationwhile he was over in Vietnam?Yeah, and I think I mean, I think he didrespect that her parentswere highly educated people that wereencouraging her to do that.I think he just thought, well, you'll be mylittle wife and we'll be together.All that I think had a verynaive attitude about it all.But yeah, I think it was normal to backthen to expect that of womenlike that would have just been the natural.I mean, Gen X men thought that too.Many Gen X men. Sodefinitely boomer men did.But so when your dadstopped going to school,he probably knew the riskof getting drafted, right?I mean, did he you said he didn't graduate.So he chose to stop going.He chose to stop thinkingthat he could just go to work.And at that time, thatmust have been around1971, 72 ish, I guess. I don't know.I don't know the exact timeline.But at whatever time that was,because they didn't have childrenand he was not enrolled in school,he was just first up on the draft.Yeah, it happened right away.It was so fast. Yeah.So how long was he over there?I'm not sure exactly.I think it was less than two years becausehe had a severe aneurysmwhile he was there and actually was ina enemy hospital for a long time.And they told my mom on multiple occasionswhile she was living withhis parents that he had died.And he had not.It was a really stressful experience forthese two young people to go through.So crazy. Yeah.The fact that they tried to make it work isstill when he got back.I mean, they both had been through a lotapart from like what?18 or 19, maybe maybe 20.I think I think she was about 21, 22.And he was about 23, 24.Yeah. OK. Yeah.So it started off with sometrauma with losing the baby.They were both young, 18 and 20. Right.And then sort of forced into marriagebefore they were ready.They definitely would not have done it.Otherwise they were both just going to goto college. Yeah. Exactly.So they had kind of avision of how life's going to go.And then boop, not like that. Fun.Yeah. Obviously. Yes. Yes. Yes.Which as you do in high school, but whichis ties to your book,I think a little bit.But yeah, it really does.So but then he goes to warand not that's traumatic.Hello. That's absolutely a lot of folks.I'm so processing.Your mother was toldmore than once that he died.Like, what was the. Yeah.That's crazy. Why more than once?I don't understand. Was it like he died?Oh, we made a mistake.He's alive. Oh, he died.Archer. Well, because theyknew he had had this aneurysmand then they couldn't find him because hewas in an enemy hospitaland people weren't giving me.So they assumed he had beendead. And so they said that.Yeah, I don't have all the details.Unfortunately, he's not hereanymore to ask a lot of that.But yeah, I do just I reallyhave clear memories of my mom,you know, sharing with me how traumatizingall of that experience was.And I loved his parents very much.But his mother was not awarm, fuzzy, loving individual.So for my mom to be inthat house, getting that newswithout her twin sister, without herparents, without really the loveand support of anyone around her.I think she felt reallyscared and alone for a long time.Yeah, her family wasin Jersey still, right?Actually, so my grandfather,he was an engineer of waterways.And so like after World War Two,he was sent to Japan to rebuild thewaterways that we had bombedand were destroyed.And he worked in Australiabuilding bridges and waterways.And that was what he didin Southern California.And then he was sent backto Australia for a while.He was sent to areas in Africa.And then he did go back to Ohio.They never went back to New Jersey, butthey went back to Ohio.And that's where theysettled when he retired.And they lived there untilhe passed away at age 92.Yeah. Wow. So did hersiblings kind of go with him?Did your did your grandmother and hersiblings go to Australia,go to all these different places?Her youngest sister did go toAustralia for a very short time.But her twin sister wentto the University of Arizonaand met her husbandthere and became a teacherand then came back andresided in Southern California.Pretty, yeah, I think probablyaround 1977, 1978, she came back.And so they at that point, they did theirbest to stay as closeto each other as they could, because theydefinitely have always, you know,I don't know how how manytwins you have in your life,but when you're the child of a twin, youyou figure out pretty quicklythat their twin is their person like theirspouse will matter a lot to them.Their children will matter a lot to them.But their person is their twin.That is their person for everything.So they stay super connected, huh? Yes.So to not have her there, itsounds like she moved thereafter all this stuff went on,but to not have her with her.And it wasn't like now where you can justtext or call, you know,so it's letters and landlines and all that.And then she's with herin-laws who aren't necessarilythe most emotionally supportive.So I'm sure there's trauma there.So then I assume when shegot the news, he's alive.That was a joyous moment for her.And of course, yeah.And he came home, right?They sent him home.And it was like he's dead again.Well, yeah, like, yeah, that's crazy.There was there was backand forth and back and forth.And then and then there wasconcern about what capacityhe would become home in,because how severe was the aneurysm?Those kinds of things. But he did.He did come home.Gosh, I mean, my brother was born in 76.I want to say he he had tohave been home by 74 ish.And he immediately just dove full forceinto working for his fatherand becoming a general contractor andbuilding a life for them.So, you know, they theybought their own home.And yeah, it's the mostthing that he even survived.Not only only did he survive Vietnam, hesurvived an aneurysm.Yeah, I mean, phenomenal, right?Yeah, unfortunately, he had multiplestrokes over before he passed awayat age 67 and his motheralso had multiple strokesbefore she passed awaya couple of years ago.And even his dad hadmultiple strokes over the years.So I'm definitely aware of this.And I try to keep it in mindas I talk to doctors and stuff.And they ask me medical history.I'm like, well, so far, I seem good.But I want you to justkeep track of this for me.Right, right.What's their background?Because it was your mom's was Yugoslavia.He was Yugoslavian.But what about your dad's side?So my dad's mother, Scotch Irish, and shesaid she said some Native American,although I don't I don't believe it. ButI'm who mixed up into soI think that that's funny.And my granddad, you know, he I believeeverything from both of themwas somewhere in the British Isles area,whereas my mom's family was a little bit.Her mom was it was British in heritage, butshe they those three,my dad's parents and my mom'smom were all multiple generationshad lived in the UnitedStates for a long time.OK, whereas my granddad, when he came hereat 12, he was six foot twoand they put him in a kindergartenclassroom because he didn't speak English.And so there was just there was a big chipon his shoulder from, you know,yeah, Eastern Europe andall the wars and everything.He was a pacifist in nature because ofeverything he had seen.He came here with his hismom was a widow, a war widow.And so she came herebasically as a mail order bridefor another Slavic manwho had lost his wife here.And brought her 12 year old son and I have,you know, the Ellis Islandpaperwork of like when they landed and.Yeah, so amazing.It definitely had a lot of impact, though,on how their family workedand how my mom was raised.And yeah. OK, so yourdad is back from Vietnam.Do they move out of his parents house?Do they get their own? They do.OK, moved all of like, OK, two miles away.A brand new suburban development that wasvery much like picture perfect.American, you know, Stepford wives,California at the time,everything was strip malls and suburbia.And that's yeah, that's where my brotherwas born and where I was bornhere in Orange County.And we're both sets ofgrandparents within that proximity.My mom's parents were gone.They were in Ohio.They never came back yet.They traveled.Yeah, right.So they were travelingand then ended up in Ohio.But his parents wereworking. Yeah, he was working.But his parents stayed close in proximity.And so and how long?Because I know they divorced, right?Yeah, so actually, now thatyou say it, though, his parents,when my dad fully took overand once they bought their house,his parents actually built their dreamhouse in Hawaii and they left to.So they they just gave everything.They gave the company to my dad and theygave their house in Orange Countyto his brother and they left.And so by the time I was born in 1979,they were already well established inHawaii and had been there for a while.Yeah. OK. So when you buy the time you wereborn, both sets of grandparentswere not gone. They were gone.The growth in that area during that timewas phenomenal, right? Explosive.Yeah. So contracting generalcontractors did really well.Because there was a lot ofgrowth. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.And then how long were theymarried until they got divorced?So they got married when my mom was 18.I was born when she was 29.And they split up by thetime I was nine months old.OK. So you know, I have nomemory of their being together.My brother was three and ahalf at the time or four, four.By the time they split up.And do you know why they got divorced?Yeah. So my dad startedto have a relationshipwith the woman across thestreet and my mom found out about it.OK. So do you know how longthat affair had been going onuntil she found out about it?So the people across thestreet had already separatedand their divorce was final and the husbandhad moved to Minnesotaand they had teenage daughters who wereactually our babysitters.And I know that my dad met her, the woman,of course, through their neighborhood.But then they weremembers of a racquet cluband would regularly seeher at the racquet club.And so it it must have gone on for a whilebecause my mom, when she foundout she she was completely done.She was so heartbroken that she had beenpregnant and nursing a newborn.And all of this was going on. And sheimmediately moved out.She she couldn't even he wasn't going.He wasn't willing to move out.So she immediately moved out and gotherself a little condoand was trying to be thesingle mom with the two of us.But he he got married right away.And that he married her right away.Yeah, by the by the time I was three, theywere getting remarried.And by the time I was four, my mom hadgotten remarried to that woman's husband.So here's what happened.It's kind of crazy.Yeah, everyone. Listeners, buckle up.Because my my dad's motherwas the daughter of a pastor.And she flat out told him thatif he was willing to break uphis marriage over this woman,he better marry her right awayor he'd lose his inheritance.So he did.At the same time in California, divorceswere becoming more and moreand more popular in the early 80s.And because they got married first,that was considered themore stable household.And the courts didyear on, year off custody,where I would have to livewith my father for a yearand not see my mother for a full year.No, even though she was.No, no, no seeing at all.And so my mom was heartbroken over this.She had not even like she had not doneanything except been cheated onand tried to like.So she ended upgoing to Minnesotabecause she had stayed friendswith the husband of thewoman across the street.And he had set up his life in Minnesota andtold her, it's beautiful here.You can totally, you know, own a home here.It's affordable.And and so he like introduced her to peoplein the Lake Minnetonka area.And she got a job as adental hygienist there.And they ended up dating and yes, gettingmarried by the time I was four.So my I know it's just crazy.So my step sisters were thebabysitters across the street.And now their mom was mystepmom and their dad was my stepdad.And my parents were their step parents.So the four of us childrenat that time when I was four,the oldest was 18.We shared the same four parents.So they had a kid going into kindergarten,a kid going into collegeand two in between, all with these fourparents who truly hated each other.My mom hated my dad andmy mom hated my stepmom.My dad hated my mom and myeverybody hated each other.And it was so contentious.Wow. It created their 15 years. Yeah.And so I'm just going back.I'm going back to I don'tunderstand how your mom,how your dad had soul custody for a year.Was that the California law then is thatyou could separate childrenfor that length of time from a parent?Because my mom needed to work.She couldn't be 100 percent childcare.And my stepmom didn'twork and she could be.And then this was a two parent household.And so, yeah, I I can'teven believe that it was done.But I lived with my dad when I was three,my mom when I was fourand my dad when I was five.And then my mom was done with that.She was like, I can't handle this.And my mom and my stepdadmoved back to Californiaand she refiled to get custody becauseshe's like, I am not doing this anymore.I cannot be away from mychildren for a full year again.Yeah. I mean, because are youtalking about even holidays?Yes. She just said youcouldn't have no contact.Right. You know, my birthday.I have I have a very traumatic memory of myfifth birthday in whichmy mom tried to bringme a doll for my birthdayand my stepmom wouldn't let herin and they were going to party.And so I started crying and I say thisbecause my stepmom knowsI love her very much. We havea very good relationship now.But I got slapped across the face and toldthat I was ungratefulfor the party that was beingthrown for me when I'm cryingbecause my mom sent a toy and Ididn't even get to hug my mom.Like I didn't actually get tosee her on my fifth birthday.And it was it was very traumatic. Very,very traumatic for sure.I can't imagine a more traumatic situationthan the way your parents marriage and amore traumatic for your mom.Let's say she's betrayed and and has therug pulled out from under herand could be who knows having somepostpartum anyways,because she's had a baby.Hello. So her hormonesare way off. She's nursing.Let's take all that into consideration.Your brother's three and a half.He's a handful.And so now we have to leave the perfectsuburban white picket fence lifeand as a single mom in 19in the early 80s, right.And that wasn't my mom was a single mom,too. It was not normal.She did. My mom never got invited tochaperone at school dancebecause the other momsdidn't want her around.It was not normal to have tohave your parents divorced.And no matter what any less, I get peoplesaying it was normal.It was not and it was notnormal to be a single mom.They were not accepted.So your mom is already dealing with that.And then this warped court system inCalifornia, which I'm shockedbecause in general,California is fairly progressive.So I don't even understand where thatnothing like that would happen now.Nothing even remotely close to happen now.But I understand.Sure, she's working.My mom was working, but she's working.But that doesn'tjustify you and your brothernot seeing her every other weekend, let'ssay, you know, or every other Christmas.So I'm just blown away.I'm shocked.And to you, because that's all you know.And your poor brotheractually probably knew differentand then having to adjust to that.Now that had to have been rough.And then the trauma on your mom.So that those years, you know, we talkedabout fight or flight.You were put in a fight orflight right from the start.Yeah, it's a lot of Gen Xers were put infight or flight right from the startand probably just continued on that path.I would assume your childhood, right?Absolutely. They didn't like each other.They fought that justcontinued all the time.Yeah, yeah. Every holiday.Once my mom and my stepdadmoved back to Southern California,they moved less than amile from my mom's twin sisterwho had kids, my daughter, exactly the sameage as me, three months apart for me.And so once they movedthere, my mom got custodyand it was the everyother Christmas with my dad,every other Thanksgiving kind of thing.Unfortunately for me,I that was pretty muchmy whole relationship with mydad was those brief holidays.I got 4th of Julybecause my birthday is in July.He always just said, well, we'll celebrateyour birthday at the 4th of Julyand we'll have you for the 4th of July.And then I got some sort of Thanksgivingand some sort of Christmasnot necessarily on the day, but and thatwas pretty much myrelationship with my dad.My entire childhood after that.So my mom was back.OK, so even though he was lived close, hewas physically close.He wasn't involved.You didn't go there every other weekend.He was. No, because once mythe two stepsisters were 14and 10 years older than I am.Once the younger of thosetwo graduated high school,my stepmom and my dadbecame very happy, empty nesters.And they had a very prominent social lifebecause he lived right where he grew up.And so all of his friends were still there.And they, you know, she joined the women'sclub and he, you know,had his golfing buddies and they went oncruises with their friends.And it became very obvious very quicklythat what was going onwith my brother and Iwas not of much interest.See, she rivals you in terms ofwonky stuff.You might. I mean, because I know.So there's definitelyabandonment issues there.But did your stepfatherwas he did he fill that role?To some degree, he absolutely did.He was an incredible stepfather forsomebody who had raised two daughters.And it would have been totallyunderstandable for him to be like,listen, I don't wantto do the child toddlerelementary boy through teenagers thing.Like, I'm not interested.He didn't do that. He was fully invested.He was a very loving attentive.He was more, you know, thetypical father of that erawhere he would go to work andcome home and expect dinner madeand his laundry done.And like, I, you know, I don'tgo to parent teacher conferences.That's for somebody elseto do that kind of thing.He was more of that.But we had a very loving relationship.He was always very invested ineverything that we were doing.Yeah. Thank God for that.That you had that otherfigure for your brother, too,because that's important for a boy as well.So that's that's wonderful.Unfortunately, my brother is the one out ofthe four of us that really, I mean,I it sounds crazy to say this becauseyou're saying, oh, I rivalNicole in the trauma.But I would say I got off easiest out ofeverybody because the teenagerswho understood what was happening when theparents switched like this,they that was a verytraumatic experience for them.They were like, what thehell is going on right here?Wait, what do you mean you're married?What is happening?And so there was a lot of resentment,especially from my oldest sisterfor a long time about all of that.And then my brother was the one, I wouldsay, who he really got lost in the mixof it because beingseparated from our dad for so long.But then this isn't his father orstepfather, isn't his father.He had a really hard time acceptingauthority of somebodyother than our father.But our father didn't really want to be aninvested father anymore.And my brother tried moving inwith our dad for a few years.And they were, like I said, realinterested in their social lifeand not real interested in parenting.And so he just got punished all the timefor not being trustworthy.But they weren't actually like doing whatthey needed to do as parents to guide him.And so, yeah, he really he had a hard time.He very much loved and respected ourstepfather, the older he got.But most of his growing up formative years,he was at odds with both of thefathers and having a lot of acting.No, yeah, I think itmakes 100 percent sense.And especially considering you said thatthere was strife and conflictthrough your whole child.That means for your yoursisters, it was always like that.And they were fully awareof everything, of course.And then for your brotherand then that's all you knew.So I'm sure for at least you and yourbrother, but especially you,but maybe your brother, too, you were wereyou walking on eggshells pretty much.Did you find yourself always like, OK,where's the next thing coming from?And did you find yourself also becoming ahuge people pleaserfrom all of huge people?Pleaser. So, yeah, that wasthe I was the straight A student.The I was definitelychatty in class and everything.But I was, you know, don't get in trouble.Don't make wavesbecause that was Trevor's job.My brother was the one makingwaves and getting in trouble.And so, you know, when when I would comeinto the class two orthree years after him,they'd be like, are you like your brother?No, I'm the opposite of my brother.I'm the good kid. You know, so yeah, I.Yeah, one of the I was I thinksecond in my graduating class,I was class speaker, went straight to UCLA.Like I had to follow all the rules so thatnobody was ever upset with me.Very compliant.And high achiever, a lot of children thatcome from high conflict situationsand instability are high achievers becauseit also gives you a sense of controlof your life, right? A sense of control.And it was the only thing when I would bewith my dad at those Fourth of July'sand they'd have 50 peopleat their house, it would be,oh, let's not talk aboutwhat Trevor's been up to.But Jamie's a straight A student.Jamie's going to this college.Aren't we so proud of her?So I wanted that kind of because I wasn'tgetting anything else.I really was not gettinganything else from them.So I wanted that feedback and I really wasseeking it out. Yeah.You were getting the love and acceptancethrough your accomplishments.So you each had your roles.Your steps. Yes.I were like, screw this, I'm out of here.This is nuts.As soon as I can get away andget out of this house. Right.The oldest, the oldest.But her that the second one was much moreof the people pleaser than not makewaves also, because thatwas her role for so longin her own house that split up when shewas, you know, 14, 13, 14 years old.So she was yeah, if her older sister wasgetting into trouble,she needed to be the good kid.Yes. Right.Well, we both fell into that a little bit.Yeah. Are you too close?We were we were pretty close.I mean, we were 10 years apart.But unfortunately, she passedaway from ALS in 2019 at age.Oh, sorry. I'm so sorry.Thank you. What aboutwith your older sister?We're still close.We have a very good relationship.But she she chose to movepermanently to Minnesotawhen she graduated high schoolbecause she felt like that wasabout as close to her parentsas she was willing to live.And she never came back.But she has since reallyrepaired her relationshipand has a very goodrelationship with her mom now.And we all are close. Yeah.All of us that are remaining at this point.Unfortunately, there's been a lot of loss,but those of us who are remainingare all very close. Sodid you notice a difference?And because you said your older sister wasshe born in 1965? Right.And then you were 64, 64.OK, so she's she's right there.She's almost she's Generation Jones andthen oldest Gen X or youngest boomer.And then you're 79.So that's the whole range right there.Yeah. And then your brother and your othersub sister in between there.Did you observe any differencesin how each of you were parentedas time went on or wasthe parenting similar?I was too young to ever witness the oldestAngeles parenting because,yeah, I was four. She was 18when they were all remarried.So I never lived in thesame house with Angela ever.Christina was when I was startingkindergarten, we shared a wall.And she was 15, 16 in high school andlistening to Rick Springfieldand George Michael and braiding my hair andputting ribbons in it.And so I did witnessvery much the praise of her and what a goodgirl she was and how sweet she was.And you want to be just like her.And at that during that one year of mykindergarten year, my brother would havebeen in second or thirdgrade, I guess third grade.And he was the troublemaker and he wasknocking over the Christmas treeand he was getting in trouble for ridinghis bike too fast andcrashing and needing stitches.And so don't be likethis kid, be like that kid.So I definitely learned that from how my Idid witness Christina get parented.But then once I moved to my mom's for firstgrade, I never lived with my dad again.And Christina never lived inmy mom and my stepdad's house.So OK. So did you still see Christina everwhen she went over to your mom'sonly on Fourth of July andlike every other Christmas?Yes, that is. That was it. That was it.Oh, that had to have been rough because youhad been building this relationshipand you probably looked up to her and shewould braid your hairand then it was sporadic.And I'm sure that was hard for her, too,because you were thisadorable little sister.But I don't know. I think I think maybethere was there was love there.But I think I was alsoyou know, she's a teenager.Like she didn't necessarily want to bestraddled with babysitting at four or fiveor six year old either, especially becausemy dad and my stepmom were newly marriedand trying to go outand have fun all the time.They were glad to just leave me with her.And that I probably seemed a lot more likean obligation than I probablyparentified a little bit where she wasresponsible for you in thatway and your brother, too.So you said you were were you always highachieving right from the start?Like as early as memory academically, wereyou just like one of those kidsthat I'm going to get straight A's,hundreds on everything?So I know that I struggled a little bit inthose early elementary years to figure out,you know, I think I was always pretty smartand I always wanted to do well.But if there was a conflict with theteacher, if the teacherdidn't seem to like me,I would shut down completely.My fifth grade teacher, though, I am stillfriends to this day with.He was just a real, like positive energy inmy life and really uplifting.And that was when it really started to belike, OK, I see you're telling meI can be whatever I want to be.He gave me the nickname of Hollywood.He's like, you may be an actress or you maybe a director or producer.Who knows? Like he was just always verymuch like you just got to workand you'll get whatever you want.And so I fully embracethat from that point on.So, yeah, probably starting at 10, I wouldsay I was really genuinely a high achiever.That's amazing.He came into your life and was such aninspiration and justchanged the trajectory.Did you through elementary school andmiddle school, did you play any sportsor do art or any extracurriculars?I was always a swimmer.And then in middle school, I got intobasketball and in high school,I did some basketball andsome tennis and some swimming.But I would say I wasnever a real athletic person.I just like the camaraderie of the team andlike I could do the sports,but I was never great at them.So, you know, my mom likegives me all my old trophies.We just had to move my mom into aretirement community.And so she gave me all these old trophiesand she's like, you should put them up.I'm like, why?I don't need all theseparticipation awards like this is funny.My mom gave us yourtrophies when we got married,and I think they've beenunder our bed ever since.Like I don't I don't evenknow if we might have the shoes.Blame, that would be cool.Last thing we need.No, we're good.And I think I have my kids.So I think it's just something you dobecause I'm waiting till they get married.And I'll be like, here's your four bins.I've been saving a random stuff that youdon't want to stop giving out trophies.Thankfully, no, I think they still do.Well, the city does.But yeah, no, I think Iwell, we are they're older now,but I think for younger ones,they still get little trophies.So so then in high school, you didbasketball a little bit.OK, and did you do anyother like I lettered?I I was a varsity letterer in tennis.I was a varsity letterer in swimming.I was high, you know, a four point oh.So I got all the academic letters.I was on the debate team.I was the spirit club president for, youknow, all the sports and everything.Now, did your mom andstepdad come to your games?Like how our generation doesn't miss asingle second of anything of our kids,typically, the hearingsection for all your stuff.I have tried to explain this to my kids somuch that they have no ideawhat it's like when youyou go to all your practicesand your parents did notdrop you off at those practices.You got yourself there or you stayed afterschool until practice was done.And then you got a ride home somehow.You would go.I would go to my tennis matches.Yeah, not a single parent there.Maybe on the team of 20kids, two parents would be there.And they were definitely not mine.My mom was a working dental hygienist andshe she couldn't take off work.She she got paid by the patient.She didn't she didn't have a salary.She got paid by the patient.So she took time off.That was just moneystraight out of her pocket.Now, I think even if a parent didn't work,though, it wasn't the norm to go do that.Right. There wasn't this now.It's like people stay for practices.We've done it when our kids were younger.We stayed for practices.It amazes me to see how many parents aresitting there for likea 230 game on a Tuesday.Like, how can you all be here?I know why I can be here, butwhy how can you all be here?Yeah. And then, you know, when when myhusband will show up to something,they'll be like, oh, we haven't seen you inforever, Patrick, because he's got a job.I don't know what you guys are doing.Somebody has to pay our bills.I don't know if it's I mean, I it's true,though, because even when our kids areplaying, it seemed like everyone was I feellike people left workto come watch this gameand then went back or you're right.That's such a great pointbecause somehow everyone was there.You know, but it's the opposite, I think,of what a lot your parents came to a lot.My parents did. Yeah, theythey came to a lot of you.He had more of that friend.Parents did, too, though, actually.Yeah. Where you grew up, I think there wasvery few guys, thedads would sit at practiceand watch and be with each other and thenthey'd all show up for games.He grew up in a smalltraditional town in Jersey.I think everyone was married.There were probably very few divorces andwas just that very leave it to Beaver vibe.So I need that you say that my husband, wealways joked when we first got togetherthat he was from the leave it to Beaver andI was from the Osborns.So there was not.We were as far separate because his dad wasthe only middle school science teacherin their entire town.So his everybody knew his dadand his dad had school hours.So when school was done, he could be atevery basketball practice and gameand ruling his son on andtaking him to tournaments.And his mom was a part time librarian.So she worked the hours when he was atschool and she would be theremaking sure there was after school snacksand giving him to things, too.So his parents were there for everything.And their little, you know, their littletown still to this dayonly has two stoplights.I mean, there was nothingelse going on in that townbesides the basketball games. Yeah. Right.I know. And I think Ithink there are Gen X there'sand we've talked about this before that hadupbringings like yours and like mine.And then unbeknownst to us.Well, no, I actually assumed everyone hadan upbringing like Brian's.I thought I was the only weird one.I didn't I thought something was likewhat's wrong with my life.Like I'm the only onewith divorced parents.And then now that I'm honestly now that I'molder and Gen X is connectingthrough all of these ways, I'm realizingthere are so many of usthat had a similar upbringing to mine.Well, where is the first generation?We're the first divorcees, the firstdaycares, the first after schoolfor all that shit, right?When you're goingthrough it, you don't know.Oh, I guess I know you existed. Yeah.Wait, we were right.You thought. Yeah.And we were almost likeliving through a part of historywhere there was a cultural shift.And so those of us who were children, youknow, no one knew how todeal with the trauma we were sufferingbecause no one hadeven defined that trauma.Yeah. Right.And there's notechnology to connect the dots.No, no social media, nophones or the landlines.But that was no, but even if they're but wewouldn't have even knownhow to communicate aboutit, there were no words to putto what we were going through, I don'tthink, you know, in mylife, my friend groups,it was probably 50 50, about 50 percent ofthem, their parents were still married.And it seemed kind of idyllic.And about 50 percent of them were like me.And and I had my cousin, my mom's twinsister, they got those parentsgot divorced when she was in third grade.So, you know, what?Five years after my parents separated.So I had enough of like, OK, we weunderstand one another.We can sort of trauma bond.And then so I was more drawn to my friendsthat had stable householdsthat I would want to go spend time therebecause it felt calmingto be around thatinstead of around my household.And so it makes complete sense to me thatas soon as I met my husbandand saw what his upbringingI was so like drawn in like.And I remember I said to him, you know,when we first got married, I said,you better not break my heart because ifyou do, I'm keeping your familyand you have to have mine.That's awesome.If you ever find when youwould go to those friends houseswhere everything seemed perfect, did youalso find it kind of fascinating?Did you ever watch their how their familymove, talk like just thejust their whole home life because it wasso different from yours?I found I did that where I would justobserve and they're doing normal stuff.But it was so foreign to me that I wouldjust sit back and kind of watch them.Like I'm watching a TV show almost.It fascinated me. Yeah.Yeah, it's interesting to look back,though, because even though thethe fighting and the chaos was asignificant part of my childhood,both of those marriages ended up lastinguntil my father and my stepfather died.They they ended uphaving 35, 37 year marriages.So they were learning howto have a good relationshipeach in their own households.But also there was all thischaos happening at the same time.And so I was getting both of it.And I yeah, I would sort of watch what'shappening in my friends houseswhere it seemed liketheir parents were stable.I was I was very much an observer, whichI think is why I fell intoloving writing, because I love toall the nuances you can describe aboutpeople's interactions with one anotherand the little details that make a hugedifference because I wasI was observing it all. Yeah.So you brought up meeting your husband,which I know was in college.So let us let's go, I guess.What senior year when did you know youwanted to go to college?When did you decide whereyou wanted to go and why?I knew by the time I was going into myfreshman year of high schoolthat I wanted to go to UC Berkeley.I was so certain I'm I'mgoing to go to UC Berkeley.My very conservative stepfather used tocall me a bleeding heart liberaland it made sense thatI wanted to go there.And but my brother who had beensort of.Jackass in high school, I put it like likehe, you know, he would have 40appa 40 tardies in his first period class.He'd have, you know, ditch school all thetime, barely graduated.He went to community college for two years.And because I had basically done all theresearch and like explainedall the reasons that UCBerkeley was the most amazing school,he transferred fromcommunity college to UC Berkeley.So when I got my acceptance letter, Igladly held it up and said,look where I'm not going, because thatcampus is still too smallfor the two of us to be in the same place.So I went to UCLA instead.Was that your backup?Was that your second choice?I by the time I wasapplying, I had decided that UCLA,because my brother was already at Berkeley,I just applied to Berkeleybasically to prove I could get in.But I had decided thatUCLA was where I wanted to go.I actually ended up getting into prettymuch all the schools that I applied to,which at that time wasn't that hard forsomebody with the academics that I had.But I look back at it now since my oldestjust started college.I had zero help with applying to colleges.It was all on me.I had to do the research.I had to write the essays.I had to edit the essays.I had to mail the essays.I had to do it all.I didn't have helpstudying for the SATs or the ACTs.That was all on me.I had to get myself to the test.I had to schedule it and pay for it.And so...I think all of us Gen Xers who went tocollege had to do that.I think...Yeah.I don't remember.You think about how much we are involvednow with our children before they go tocollege and all the...We know everything that has to be done andthe dates and all that.No one was guiding us.We were just kind of like, "Ugh!"You know, and on our own.And it's amazing that we all...Well, it's so Gen X.Of course we got it.Because if we want to do it,we're going to get it done.But again, anotherthing, we just figured it out.I think it was smart kids like you, though,that the rest of us followed.Probably.Because we had it under control.We're like, "All right,we got to follow her."They were example.So I...Yeah.Yeah.I think all through highschool, I always was like,"Well, I have to be a lawyer or a doctor.I have to be a lawyer or a doctor."And I thought that if I went toBerkeley, I would be a lawyer.And if I went to UCLA, I'd be a doctor.And so I got into UCLA and I was pre-med.And that's because that was the expectationthat I had been told by my parents.Like, "You're smart.You're capable.So you need to do this.That's people who are smart and capableneed to follow these paths."And so that was what I understood.And then I got to UCLA and I was miserable.I hated being a bio major.I didn't like any of the classes related.I was in Calc II and I was passing myclasses, but I was unhappy.But I had passed the AP test on all of myEnglish and language arts stuff.And so I was in a highdivision English class.And I was a freshman leading discussionswith juniors and seniors.And my professor was an adjunct professorwho pulled me aside after class one day.She's like, "Can you tell mewhy this says you're a bio major?"Because to me, it's veryclear that you love literature.You love discussing literature.You're a very talented writer.Why would you be a bio major?And it was like this justlightbulb went off in my head.Like, "You mean I can just do what I likebecause it's something I'm enjoying and Idon't have to go down this path?"And it was at that moment that I was like,"Okay, I'm out of here."I had tried to make things work at UCLA.I had some good friends who I'm stillfriends with to this day,but I knew that being inthat environment wasn't great for me.And so I transferred to a small liberalarts school and movedinto an apartment off campuswith my best friend andstarted studying writing instead.How were you at UCLAbefore you made that decision?Just my freshman year.So you did freshman year.So did you live in the dorms at UCLA?Yes.Did you know your roommate going in?My two roommates in a 10 by 12 room.I did not know them andthey hated each other.I was right between two people whoabsolutely hated each other in every way.Did you know each other beforehand?Nope.Oh, yeah.Did you do the old fashioned?I know for me, it was like I sent a letterand she sends a letter back and I think wetalked on the landline phone once.Was it that type of thing?So I was right like the summer before Istarted UCLA, theyinstalled ethernet cords in allthe dorm rooms.So I was right at that point in historywhere people startedhaving email and started havinga very tail end of high school.I started I started college in 1997.Oh, okay.Yes.She's much younger than us.Yes.But imagine that.So we're 71.So in eight years,because we started in 71.Yeah, yeah, yeah.A 1971.So we started college in 89.And so when I say wrote a letter andlandline, it was truly like that.It looked like a change in eight years.I remember.Oh, that's what I'm shocked because when welike our senior year of college, they putin this beautiful computing center.Yeah, that would have been 93.And they had network printers.Yes.So you could print to the network printer,you could print andget up and walk over andget it.So yeah, okay.Before then, it wasn't like that.Not at all.No.So we were, we went throughthe whole shift of nothing.Yeah.And watching it, you know, and then we gotmarried in 94 and hestarted right away learningthis whole computer thing.So it was brand new baby stuff, right?For general public.But you would have been ableto email your roommates, right?Which we did.Yes, we actually emailed our roommates.And I think I did talk to one of them onthe phone, one briefconversation before we gotto school.The other I don't think Idid have a conversation with.And it's funny also just a fun littletidbit in the difference inour ages because my siblingswould point this out to me.My dad as a general contractor who ownedhis own business got usa personal computer thatI learned to type on a personal computer athome before I ever learned to write with apencil.When I was four years old, Iwas typing on a personal computer.So I'm right there at that, the thresholdof having personaltechnology at your fingertips.But that's a trip.You probably had maybe ICQ, AIM like theAOL instant messenger, all that stuff.Yes, all those things.Yes.Were you part of the MySpace or were you alittle older than the MySpace people?I was on MySpace for a little while.Yeah.Okay.Because you would have been in that oldestGen X younger or older millennial and theywere part of the MySpace.The older millennials were.Okay.So when you emailed withthem, did you get a vibe?Were you nervous or did you click at all?I think I definitely could see right awaywhere I was as apeople pleaser, where I wasgoing to connect with this person and whereI was going to connect to this person.So one of my roommates was secondgeneration Chinese fromSouthern California and was verytiger parents, really strict about studiesand did not have much of a social life.The other was rushing hersorority the first semester.And so I had always, like I said, I wasSpirit Club president.I had always had a big social group so Icould understand thatworld and I could understandthe needing to have thestraight A's and buckling down.And so they both would just complain to meall the time about the other because theycouldn't understand each other, but I couldunderstand both of them.Yeah.It was a miserable place to be.You were on top of being a bio major, whichwas like completely not where you belong.You also were absorbing all of this toxicenergy being the inbetween of these two people.So I'm sure by the end of your freshmanyear, you had multiplereasons to get out of there.You were like enough already.And so it's amazing.Another teacher, your fifth grade teacherwas impactful and another teacher came tothe trajectory of your life.Yes.And I've actually recently reached out toher via email and shewas so glad that I did whenI told her that my novel came out because Iwas like, you probably hadno idea how transformativethat one conversation after class reallywas because I finishedyour class and you hadno reason to know whetheryou would ever see me again.And the campus of 30,000 students at thattime, why, you know, you don't, you mightnever ever see a student again.And I said, you, you madea huge impact on my life.None of my life would lookthe way that it looks right now.If you had not done that, that day.And what a gift to her that you did thatbecause that, that I'm sureyou can't even understand.Like I can't, I'm not a teacher, but howmuch that would havemeant to know that she hadsuch an impact on one of her students.So how did your family take it?I assume you did all the things applying toyour new college, likeno one helped you there.You handled all that.How'd the family handle it?Quite the opposite.So my mom knew I was miserable at UCLA.And in March of that, that year towards theend of my second,because they're on the TriVester system, it wasthe end of my second term.I was in my dorm room and the Dean ofAdmissions from theUniversity of Redlands called mein my dorm room and said, your mom broughtyour transcripts hereand said that you wantedto transfer.And I can tell you that we can have you in,in next semester, you don't even have to doanything because I had allthe grades and everything.They were like, you don't even have to.And so it just made it real easy becausethat was a small liberal arts school closeto my home where a lot of my friends hadgone, including my very best friend.And it just made it easy.I didn't have to do anything.So it was the exact opposite of gettinginto college with allthese like lofty expectationsto you know, to go to a big university.I didn't have to do anything at all.They just say you'reaccepted if you want to come.And then she did she know you wanted to goto that school or did she just I did.I don't think I would have chosen to go tothat school, exceptthat they made it so easy.And I was so miserable.And there were so many of my friends therethat it just it was aconvenient next option.And when I looked into it, and learnedabout their writingprogram that the way that theirwriting classes worked, you were one of 12students with a publishedauthor as your professor.And you wrote all the time and got all thisfeedback on your writing.I was like, Oh, thatsounds way better than this.And that I because it was a small school, Icould study abroad and I could I could havea job and not not feel like I was going toget behind because I'd be able to scheduleall my classes easily.It wouldn't be so hard as itwas at UCLA to even get a class.And yeah, it just seems like your mom forknowing you know, doing what what we woulddo now, right?Like we would do that with our kids.But I don't think that was necessarilytypical for a lot of ourparents to take that initiative.And so that's, that's cool.She did that.Yeah, I've gone back and forth on itbecause I wonder if I I'mso glad how everything workedout and it was theperfect place for me to go.But I wonder as a mom now with an 18 yearold in New York City, and I'm on the otherside of the country.And of course, this hasbeen a hard transition for her.I don't think that I would just call up asmall little schoolright here and say, Here'sthe easy out, you know, like, yeah, I don'tthink that I would actually.I would, I would definitely be more like,you know, you should really reflect on whatyou really want and what a change like thismight mean and where you would be happier.I just, I'm not sure thatthat it worked out well.And I'm glad I'm glad how it worked out.But that's really good.That's the approach I would take.Yeah, that's a good point.Now it's a really good point.You know, so it's,it's, it's great and sweet.She did that.But was it appropriate?Right.Go back and forth between and what couldyou have made it throughand what would have happened?But like you said, maybe she missed you.I think she did.I think she did.And I think she hoped if I came back tothat area of SouthernCalifornia that I would moveback home.And I never did.I never consideredtheir home my home again.After that, I was very determined to set upmy own life and be avery independent personand always pay my own rentand buy my own groceries.And I just, I think, I think she hoped thatit would bring me right back to where I wasand it did and itdidn't because right, right.I also, my brother, you know, my brotherwent to Berkeley and helives 10 minutes from hernow.He came back.A lot of people in that small town cameback and live there andare raising their familiesthere.I never wanted that.I never chose that.Even though I met my husband there, wedidn't want to live there long term.So yeah, I think she did miss me.And I think it didn't really matter.I wasn't actually coming home.Yeah.Did you live on your ownwhen you got an apartment there?And did you have a roommate?My best friend and I moved in together.So you said, okay, her parents, her parentsdidn't have thefinancial ability to pay foreverything.I was working on a lot of student loans andat a private university, that was hard.And so it was a lot cheaper for her to geta one bedroomapartment with me and we splitthe rent and then to have theloans that for living in dorms.Did you guys plan that?Like once you knew you were going, did youtell her and she'slike, okay, let's do this.That's cool.You had a friend to do it with.Yes.You know?Yeah.It worked out really well.It was a really great year and we ended upactually rushing a sorority together.So even though we were off campus, we werevery involved on the campus together.So it ended up being really great.How big is University of Redlands, right?Yeah.And it's about about 4,000 students.Okay.So it's like, what was now where we werelike the first year UCLA, right?Or not even you first.UCLA was 30,000 students.And so there wereprobably about 8,000 freshmen.Yeah.Yeah.Where we went to school, what, 5,000?I think so.It was around 5,000.So it's similar size.How far was UCLA from your hometown?About 90 miles.Okay.But it's a totally different world.Yeah.Because like I said, I grew up at the baseof the San Bernardino mountains.It's a much more rural area.We always kind of laughed that it was likeyou took a town in Texas and dropped it inSouthern California because everybody drovebig lifted trucks and Wranglers and chewedtobacco and...Yeah.That's California.You get it all.You get it all.You get it all.It's all here.Anybody who thinksit's not, just come visit.We got it all.So how did you meet your husband?So he was at Redlandsand it's pretty funny.My best friend and I decided to throw a St.Patrick's Day party andwe invited some friendsthat he came with mutual friends.Actually my mom's twin sister's daughterwas at Redlands and she wasdating one of my husband'sfriends.And so we said, "Hey, Lindsey, bring yourboyfriend and his friends."So he came over to ourapartment with a group of guys.And he, at the time, was very like, I don'teven think dating is the right word, but Iwas interested in kind of starting to getto know one of his friends who was on thetennis team.And that guy was at the party, but Patrickwas going through my CDs and changing thefive discs in my CDplayer to change the music.And I got up in his face andlike, "Who do you think you are?That you can come to my apartment, come tomy party and change the music?"And we had like playful banter.And my best friend always laughed.She's like, "We could tell right away thatyou guys, there was something there.There was a spark."And so his name is Patrick.It was St. Patrick's Day.St. Patrick's Day will forever be a veryspecial day in this house.The next day I went to the other guy'stennis match and Pat wassitting there in the standswatching the tennis match and he and I weretalking the entire time.And we got to discussing that he had never,he'd always wanted to get a tattoo, but hecame from a very conservative family andall of his friendswere pretty conservative.And so it just didn't seemlike it was ever going to happen.I was like, "Same, I really want a tattoo."And none of my friends would ever do that.But guess what?I've got a car right there.If you get in the car,I'll drive us somewhere.We can go get tattoos right now.And that was our firstdate, was we got tattoos.Yeah.Did you get matching tattoos?No, no, no, no, no.Because I learned that at a very young age,as soon as you tattoo something associatedwith another person, it's like the fastestway to get them out of your life.So no, we did not.So you don't have Pat on your arm.No, no.What did you get?He got the Chinese symbol for good fortune,which for somebody who went into finance,getting good fortune was actually a really,it ended up being a really good guy.And I got an Ivy Heart on my hip.Okay, cool.Very cool.So after that, was that it?You guys were together after that?So that was March of 1999.And then I went in August, I studied abroadfor the next four months.So we dated for about four months, and thenI left for four months.Where did you go?Salzburg, Austria.I lived in Salzburg, Austria.Oh, that's cool.Yeah.So what made you choose Austria?Well, the University of Redlands has had ahouse in Austria for like, at this point,I think 50 something years, like, I thinkit had been 35 yearsat the time that I went.And I think it's been about55 or 60 years at this point.And so it's right upon the Munchburg there.And then you study one thing independentlythat's related to your major.And then you study art history as a group,all 35 students do wholive in the house together.You study German so that youcan speak with the local people.And you study...Oh, the head professor that lived in thehouse with his familywas a psychology professor.So he did group therapy with us.And we just, we would travelall over Europe while we...Did you go to Vienna?Oh, of course.Yeah, yeah.Of course.Yeah.And we did an Eastern European trip.We did an Italy trip.We were actually in Rome and hadThanksgiving dinner in Romeat the Four Seasons and we gotthe Papel blessing and we went to Londonand Paris and Barcelona.And I was inSwitzerland on St. Nicholas Day.It was like this magical experience.Yeah.That's cool.I hope my girls choose to study abroad incollege for at least a semester because itwas just, it was life changing for sure.Did you go to Freud's house at all?What was the Freudian theme?I do think we did.Although more of the focus was on theHabsburgs and the museumsrelated to the Habsburgs andthen also, I want to say like the Bauhausmovement and the Klimt.I remember seeing a lot of Klimt and Idon't know that we went to Freud's.It's the one country I wantto go to actually is Austria.The Christmas markets are so amazing and sowhen my children were in second and fourthgrade, I actually took my mother-in-law andthe four of us went and started in Viennaand went to Salzburg and Innsbruck andended in Munich and we went toNeuschwanstein Castle,which is like the Cinderella Castle also.To this day, even though my girls wereyoung, they've said likethat was just the most magicalexperience they could have ever had and Itotally recommend it.That's amazing and so was that for aboutfour months you said you did that?Yeah, yeah.And how old were you?So I was 20, so I was legal to drink therebut not able to drink here.That is amazing.So that was my husband'ssenior year and my junior year.We broke up during that semester and thenwe got back together after I got back andwe've been together ever since.Did you have any Europeanboys over there during your year?I was so heartbroken.No, I was beyond heartbroken.In fact, I started journal writing thereand when I look backand I read through thosejournals it was just melike, "You have to get over him."But he was the love of my life.I know it.I don't know.I just knew from thebeginning that he was one.We knew.So he graduated a year ahead of you then?But even though I transferred, I ended upgraduating a semester early.So he only graduatedone semester before me.He graduated in June andI graduated in December.Okay.And then you said you didn't stay there.So did you guys move intogether and go somewhere else?He went back to Sacramento after hegraduated and got a job infinance up there and thenI chose to get a job back in the very earlytech days of voice over IP company workingin marketing for a VOIP and Igot my own little apartment.What's that?What company?Oh, it was called Utopia.No, Itopia.It was called Itopia.And yeah, I was like...In college I had done internships at 20thCentury Fox and NBC, but it was NBCI and Iwas building web pages for their daytimetelevision programming.And so I had enough webdesign and like computer...Because it was really programming languageat that point still todo that kind of stuffthat I got.Yeah, I got the job at the startup, butthey folded six months later.After I started there?After I moved my life to Sacramento and gotmy own apartment, the company, which a lotof tech companies in 2002 went bellow up.Yeah, yeah.So then where did you go?So then I decided to enter into the teacherinternship program in Sacramento where youcan teach while youget your teaching degree.And I became a fourth grade teacher and Iwas in, I think my fourth day of teachingand 22 years old when 9-11 happened.And standing in front of these kids, Ididn't actually have a degree.I had very little experience and standingthere and this was the scariest thing evercould have happened in my life.I had no context for how to handle it.And yeah, that was something.In fourth grade they're old enough to askpretty good questions and think about them.Yeah, I had 43 fourth graders and they werevery, they ranged fromeight years old through11 years old and they were very, very, andthere were about, about30% of them were Hmong.About 30% of them were Hispanic immigrantfamilies that lived in the area that Hmongfamilies also were mostly immigrantfamilies, all working in theagricultural area surroundingSacramento.And then I had about 30% of my kids wereinner city black kids,several of them homeless,unfortunately.And so they all came from very differentbackgrounds than I did.And yeah, trying to connect with each ofthem and communicate withtheir parents about whatwas going on in theclassroom when I was just a kid.By the time your day started, we wereprobably three, fourhours into the 9-11 event.Yeah, because we were over in Jersey.So I actually had been raised in a housewhere my parents had thenews on when you got readyin the morning so that as I became anadult, I did the same thing.And I watched on the news, the plane go inand I immediately likegot in my car and droveto school.And I was the first one oncampus when my principal arrived.And I said, "What are we supposed to doabout what just happened in New York?"And she hadn't seen it.She didn't have any idea what had happened.So she actually started calling thedistrict and trying tofigure out how we were supposedto respond.And yeah, I'll never forget that day.Did you guys address it inthat day to your students?Was it addressed?Yeah, yeah.It was very fly by the seat of my pants.I wasn't given any direct message of whatto say or what to do.The day was probablythe whole week actually.The rest of the week was just kind of shot.We had another teacher on our staff who hadgone to Virginia for her sister's weddingand couldn't come backbecause of the no flying.Yeah.Well, the world stopped for a while.It did.I really...Our school was closed.Our school was closed.I think they didn't go toschool for the rest of that week.Everyone...A 50 mile radius of Manhattan at the time.Oh, wow.Yeah, of course they closed.That makes sense.Well, Brian actually was supposed to bethere that day, but herescheduled his meeting withLego to September 12th or he would havebeen arriving into the bottom of...The procrastination paid off.Which tower would you have arrived in?Tower 100?I don't know.Wherever the path was.Yeah, he would have beenarriving when it all was happening.So we all...It's crazy.And then a day, 24 hours later, you werewith a team that wentin to help set up on thepeer DNA centers because at the time theywere still hoping for survivors.And so he helped setup the network for that.They set up...It was peer 94 and they...It was a big peer.It's like a warehouse and they brought incurtain partitions andset up little temporarycubicles and we set up all the phones andcomputer systems, the network systems.So people could come in with theirtoothbrush or brush orwhatever and do interviews andtype all the informationin and stuff like that.But it was pretty wild.Unfortunately, there weren't...It didn't go the way out.For our area, it was especially traumatic.It felt like the whole New Jersey, NewYork, the wholeTri-State area felt like one bigsmall town had just been attacked.I was always curious how the West Coast, ifyou guys felt it as much as we did.I think I do believe in San Franciscoschools were closedbecause there was a belief thatthere might be a target of the Golden GateBridge or somebuildings in the San FranciscoFinancial District.But the rest of California, as I understandit, really just stayed on schedule.Kids in school was safer than kids not inschool because parents were working.Everything was stillfunctioning in the world around us.Did you guys have the whole September 12thphenomenon whereeveryone had American flagsout?There was a lot ofpatriotism, a lot of unity?I do remember a lot of patriotism in theweeks and months andyears that followed, but Idon't remember really there being a lot offlags right where I was.My husband and I at the timelived in a little apartment.I think it was just a different experience.Probably people who lived inmore suburban areas than we did.We were more inner city of Sacramento,which isn't the same kindof inner city as New Yorkor LA.But still, yeah, we were surrounded bypeople who were verykind of in a transient stageof life.Yeah, that makes sense.Did you continueteaching or did that scare you?I finished that year.I had every intention to continue teaching.But for anybody familiar with finance,Sacramento is not the hubof finance in this world.My husband really quickly started to seethat there was going tobe a pretty low thresholdfor how far his careercould go in Sacramento.We were still young, and so he startedlooking for options elsewhere.When he got an opportunity at a really goodup and coming firm in Pasadena, he took it.I hadn't finished my teaching credential atthat point, even though I had been gettingit for a year while teaching.The state of California doesn't like you todo that credential at multiple schools.You do it at one school andget the degree from that school.When I said I wanted to move to SouthernCalifornia, they said,"Well, then you either need tostay here for another year and finish it,or you need to start allover again down there."I had never intended to be ateacher in the first place.When we got to Pasadena, there were a lotmore opportunities in marketing.I went back to marketing and advertising.Were you guys married at that point?We got engaged in July of 2001.And then 9-11 happened in September, and wegot married in March of 2002.Okay.Now you're in Pasadena, you're married.I found a career innonprofit marketing and advertising.All my clients were World Vision, BestFriends Animal Sanctuary, Operation Smile.I loved it.It was all about tellingstories that saved lives.When the tsunami hit, for 72 hoursstraight, just never wenthome and just kept workingand raised $50 millionin 72 hours or whatever.I really loved that.We were married for five years before webought our first homeand our oldest daughter wasborn.That's what I did for those five years.When you became a mother, did you continueworking or did you become a stay-at-homemom?I always thought that Iwould because I loved my career.I thought I'm going to absolutely go back.We were at a place financially where after,as we got five weeksinto my maternity leave,and I had lined up options for childcareand everything, and wesaw how much that was goingto cost and what my salary was.It just made sense that I could stay home.I was like, "Okay, I willstay home for right now."I decided to take a leave.I worked for a company that was verysupportive of like,"Don't worry.You can come backwhenever you want to come back."On her first birthday, I startedconsulting, again, justdoing part-time work from home,but I got pregnant with my other daughterbasically at her first birthday.She was born 21 months apart.Our girls are 21 months apart.So then that prettymuch put an end to that.I really wasn't doing much consulting workafter that when I had two babies at home.Absolutely.Then the idea of the plan was, "Well, whenthey're both in school full-time, then I'llgo back to work."I actually was set up todo that and accepted a job.Then my niece, my oldest sister has fourdaughters, and her seconddaughter was having a lotof problems.She was a freshman in high school, and theyasked if she could come live with us.She's the one that's in Minnesota, right?This is one little aspect of the peoplepleaser, the good kid, myfamily from a very, veryearly age, probably when I was 17, 18 yearsold, started makingthe joke that WWJD meantwhat would Jamie do?Everything fell to me from about thatstage, 17, 18, to figure it out.Everybody would turn to me.I only really have started to fully embraceand understand this as I've unpacked it inthe last 10 years.The oldest sister who's 14 years older thanI am, literally oneweek into starting anotherjob for the first time, leaves her14-year-old daughter to live with us.I quit that job.How long had you beenworking at the new job before that?A week.A week.It wasn't a nonprofit.This was a brand new company.I actually accepted a position at the ...Our girls were doingpreschool and first gradeat a Christian school in Pasadena.I accepted a job at that school since I hadsome teaching experience and everything.I was like, "I can have the same hours asthem and everything,"but then I had to resignimmediately to take care of my niece whowas having issues anddo homeschool with her.I was going to say, because she would havebeen going into high school, but she had tobe homeschooled.It's extremely generous and just wonderful,really, that you would do that.Looking back, I'm really glad that we didtry to help, that my husband was willing.She lived with us for 99 days.We joke it's like a rapsong, 99 days in Pasadena.She was definitely not making progressbecause the issues that shehad, especially the psychologicalissues she had, were very much with herparents and were thingsthat they needed to work outtogether.Everything was just onpause while she lived with us.We would have little issues, but for themost part, she was just buying her time.We had a good relationship.She was fine.She was just buying her time.It became obvious that it wasn't making theimpact that it needed to make.We had her in therapy twice a week and thetherapist was like, "We're not making anybreakthroughs here because we're missinghalf of the situationthat needs to be addressed."The normal point, bring her to Jamie andJamie, you fix her, andthen you bring her back,repaired, but we'renot going to participate.That was exactly how, yeah.She went back and I got our house back to alevel of normal againand was ready to startworking again the nextyear, the next school year.Okay, so they said, "We still want you.Come work for kids."They said, "You're great.We love you.Yes, you're a great family.We'll give you another job."That was 2014.I accepted a job.I started it in August.The day before Labor Day, we found out thepeople we were renting a house from.We had outgrown the house we had bought, sowe were renting that house out to somebodyelse and renting a house because wecouldn't financially buy abigger house at that time.We're sort of renting.The people we were renting from, eventhough we had another twoyears on our lease, theysaid that the owner had terminal cancer.He wanted to liquidate all of hisproperties, so we eitherneeded to buy the property orjust move out.At that point, we were payingtwo private school tuitions.Pasadena is a wonderful city.It's very pretty, but it is like 100private schools andreally terrible public schools.We had been spending all of our free timewhenever we could geta chance going to SealBeach.It's about a 35-minute drive from Pasadena.We were in the northernmost part of OrangeCounty right across from Long Beach in thesouthern part of LA County.We knew that they had the best publicschools and you could live at the beach.They actually had affordable houses toobecause Pasadena did nothave affordable houses.There were these bidding wars happening atthat point, and we were getting outbid.We made the decision.Again, I started in August, and by middleof September, we decided we were going tomove.I had to resign again.Then at that point, we thought, "Okay, thisis chaotic, but we'regoing to make it work.It's going to be okay, and we're going toget the kids settledinto public school there."That's a good situation.We can afford to make all this work.We were due to moveNovember 1st, October 15th.My mom's mom, I got a call thatshe was at the end of her life.Could I go there?I was holding her hand on October 15th asshe took her last breath.I was like, "Okay, I'm two weeks frommoving and I just lost my grandma.This is heartbreaking."Then October 30th, I wassitting at the new house.They had just finished the termites, hadcome off, and they wereturning on the gas, andI had to be there for that.I had just enrolled the kids in the newschool, and my cell phonerings, and my husband onthe other end, I could hear his voiceshaking, and he said,"My dad just died."It was a complete shock because I told youhe was such an integralpart of that community,and his dad had not been sick.His heart just gave upand completely stopped.He was 77 years old.Yeah, 77.That's still young.That's still young.No to younger kids, like anyone youngerthan us thinks that'sold, but that's actuallynot old, especially if you're active andyou're so vibrant and involved in life.There's still a lot of life to live.Science teacher.He was a science teacher.He taught community college Spanish.Even though he was retired, he was stillgoing into my brother-in-law's classroom.My brother-in-law is a mathteacher at the high school.He was helping those kids.My brother-in-law was thegirls' basketball coach.He was helping with that because he hadalways been a coach of basketball.He was a special Olympics coach forswimming and basketball.They were very involved in their church.He was in every part of that community,constantly active, an incredible man.How long had they been married?50 years.They were married 50 yearsthat year when he was still alive.Were you also close to him?Was he a wonderful father-in-law?He was such a wonderful father-in-law.It was one of those experiences.Pat couldn't be there when we moved.He had to fly and helphis mom plan the funeral.He came and signed thefinal papers at escrow.I took him and droppedhim off at the airport.I had to go get our kids and tell them thatgrandpa died and dad was going to be gonefor a few days.Then a week aftermoving, Halloween was a Friday.We moved Saturday.It started school Monday.Then Friday, I had to pull them out at noonso that we could driveto Northern Californiafor the funeral on Saturday.My grandma had justdied and we had just moved.I was sitting there.I will never forget.I refused to put the dirt down at thegraveside because I waslike, "I can't physically makemyself do this.I'm not ready for himto not be in our life."That's an acceptance and Ican't accept that right now.It took a while.It's really shocking.It's an absolute shock.My dad died in a car accident.I say the first year, I wasn't evenabsorbing anything of what had happened.It really was the second year.I always tell people when it's shockinglike that, sometimesthe second year is harderthan the first year.The first year, just kind of tripped.What just happened?Then the second year iswhen, "Oh, this is reality."This is how it is.It's rough.Was it just your husband and brother?Did they have other siblings?They have a sister who's between them.My husband was sort ofthe unexpected third child.His siblings are 10 and eight years olderthan him and he was abonus right before hismom turned 40.We have a bonus.We have a 15.We have a 28, a 20, almost 25 and a 15.They're the best.They get parented by everyone.They're the most English you've ever heard.Yeah.That's my husband for sure.Yeah.Man, so you're justlike life is just spinning.Life is spinning.We have very little to nosupport in our new community.We hadn't found a church yet or anything.Trying to get my bearings, trying to meetpeople, trying to get thekids into extracurricularactivities and then another.Being as young as I was when all theparents were remarried,that meant that I really hadeight grandparents growing up.My step grandparents were very involved inmy life because I was this little baby thatjust showed up in their life.My stepmom's mother had been a veryimportant part of my life growing up.She lived in Orange County also.I got to see her pretty regularly.As regularly as I saw my dad and mystepmom, whenever I sawthem, it was a holiday andGrandma Vera was there too.As I became an adult and she was a widowliving by herself, Iwould take my kids to go visither, to go take her to the pharmacy and dosome grocery shopping, go out to lunch withher.When we moved to Orange County fromPasadena, that made that even easier.We didn't have much in our community.I started doing that once or twice a weektaking my kids there.Well, then January of 2015, so we'retalking three monthslater, she goes on hospice andpasses away.We lost three people in the first threemonths at the same time that we moved.That really was thebeginning of six years of this.It was just loss after loss after lossbecause I told you mysister Christina died at age50 of ALS.She was diagnosed at 43.For seven years, she had the slow declineand she lived in Orange County.Part of moving to Orange County was that Icould be there closer to help her.She had three kids.As her husband was working and she was nolonger able to drive, I would go pick themup and take them on driving lessons or Iwould do whatever I could to help.She passed away in 2019.My biological father hadanother stroke in 2011.He had a stroke when hewas working part-time.He was living in upstatePennsylvania and he had a stroke.He ended up moving backto Southern California.His wife had stayed in Southern Californiathe whole time and he would just fly backand forth.Then he eventually came back and he startedhis body just quickly,started shutting down.In 2015, so we moved to 2014, September2015, my dad washospitalized and for four monthshe was in the hospital lessthan a mile from my house.Every single day I was taking my kids toschool and then I'd go to the hospital andmy stepmom would have me there talking tothe nurses and doctors and then he passedaway in January of 2016.All of this at the same time,my stepfather had Parkinson's.He and his daughter, she was diagnosed withALS the exact sameyear that he was diagnosedwith Parkinson's.Now that's all happening and my mom isdealing with mystepdad who has Parkinson's.Then as he would be hospitalized after mydad died, then it was,"Okay, now we needyou to come deal with these doctors at thishospital and help with these surgeries anddeal with helping with your sister too."You were told that.You got two girls.Well, yeah.I've got two little kids.Little kids.I mean, when we moved they were inkindergarten and second grade.So yeah, they were littleand I would get them to school.I would go deal with the hospital.I would come back and get them to swimlessons and then we'dmake dinner and then we'd dohomework and I'd get them to bed and thenwe'd get up the next morning and I'd go doit all again.Then I'd be a room mom at the same time andI'd be on the PTA andall of this is happeningfrom 2014 through 2020.My stepdad passed away January of 2020 andthen the world shut down in March of 2020.Yeah, exactly.Those six years, that'swhat my life looked like.It was being a mom to little kids andrunning around like achicken with my head cut off,helping with whoever was sick and needinghelp with doctors andwhatever for six yearsuntil they died and then planning thefuneral and then going on to the next one.It was just an overhead oflife in general for your own self.Well, you probably don't even consider itpart of the mix, but it's happening eitherway.When you're in that state,yourself gets put way back.I mean, you weresandwich generation on steroids.Likeit never ended.It never ended ofhaving to care for someone.The oldest sister,remember, was in Minnesota.She was not engaged.She would come home for afuneral and then go back.The second oldest was sickand so she couldn't help.Then there was my brother who never reallyconnected and alwaysfelt a bit like the blacksheep and kind of on the outside.So he was no help either.I think the four months that our dad was inthe hospital, he visited him one time.I mean, one time in those four months.So it really, it really was.What would Jamie do?Jamie's going to fix this.Jamie's going to talk to the doctors.Jamie's going to tell uswhen hospice is necessary.Jamie's going to tellus how to handle this.Yeah, it fell on you because you have twosiblings who are kindof no contact estrangedfrom their parents.Everyone is sick and then you and you'vebeen the peeper pleaser.You've been the high achiever.You're the one that is, I always say themost compliant childrenare the ones you have toworry about the most.They're the ones that are strugglingbecause everyone's like, oh, they're fine.They're fine.Don't worry about that.Nobody's checking in on them.Nobody at all.Actually, sometimes people are shockedbecause unfortunately, whenthese high achieving teenagerskill themselves and people are like, what'swhat they had everything, you know, theyseem perfect and they'rethey're literally like dying inside.And so I'm always like, you got to got tocheck in on those kids because they're youcan't assume they're OK.Like the ones that are in their head,they're in their head.Yeah, you have to.So for you, I'm I only I assume like Jamiewas put completely like Jamie didn't existand you were just in and what's it calledautopilot and grinding.I've been really luckythroughout all of this.My husband's number one goal was always todo what he could to help me.So he he was always like,OK, what do you need from me?Even though he was working 80 hours a weekin a finance job, he was like, what can Ido for you?Do you want weekly massages?You want a gym membership?You want what can I do?How can I help?So he was like, I will have housekeepers tohelp clean the house while you're dealingwith this.I had one person who was always looking outfor me, getting me to a place where I couldactually prioritizemyself and really put my needs.All these other emergencies had to stop.And really, it wasn't until July of twentytwenty when the whole world had been shutdown and it didn't look like there wasreally any any upswing coming anytime soon.Everybody kind of I couldn't go be anywhereanymore and everybody had kind of died atthat point that we expected to die.And so I finally started that July.I decided to dowatercolor and I started to paint.I had never been an artist really before.I had always been kind of crafty.I'd been creative.I'd been a DIY or, youknow, my dad was a contractor.So I have the tools in the house.I can put things togetherand fix things or whatever.But but I started to create again for thefirst time in more than a decade.I just had not createdanything as somebody who's a writer.I'm I'm a creative person in that regard.And and I started painting watercolor and Istarted to feel that like that release ofall that tension and stress.I started to feel my breath come back to anormal state by just sitting there andmeditatively painting watercolor andfocusing on somethingbeautiful and not focusing onany of the chaos around me.It was like I could like breathe.I guess it was amazing.It was so wonderful.And you honored yourself and you allowedyourself to kind ofreenter your body and be present.Yes, exactly.And I think it's amazing you just quoteunquote picked upwatercolor speaking to someone who'snot I do right.But I'm not artistic at all.You're not artisticand none of our kids are.So we're not an artistic family.So the idea of just being able to pick upwatercolor sounds so foreign to me.So you have to have some I mean, did younot draw anything growing up?Did you not know you could do this?I was a doodler and I I was you know, likewhen the girls werelittle they would be coloringand I would be writing them a children'sbook and like sketching little things likelittle illustrations for it.But I mentioned my grandma had a master'sin fine art from Cornell.Yeah.And my mom's twin sister is an Englishteacher, but she was alsoan artist for a very longtime like in galleries and things.And so and even my oldest step sister wasan artist in her throughout her 20s.She actually one of she got she was likethe career college student.She went to college for like 10 years andone of her degrees was in art.And so I had art around me all the time.And I just never considered myself anartist because I hadn't taken art classes.I just I you know, I took an arts andcrafts class my senioryear when I ran out of classesto take and I had to be oncampus for periods, you know.And so I just didn'tconsider myself artistic.I was just always crafty.And then, yeah, once I sat down and starteddoing these tutorials online, these freetutorials on YouTube, it just I I did itonce every two weeks andthen I did it once a week.And then I started painting once a day.And then I was paintingseveral hours every day.I set up a desk in the garage and I and Iwas bringing joy to my family because I wasI was lighter and more relaxed.And I started putting my art just all overthe walls for something colorful to look atduring covid when wecouldn't leave the house.And by by January of twenty twenty one,that creative sparkreignited my desire to writeagain.And I by May of twenty twenty one, I hadapplied to grad school.I ended up going and getting my master'sonline over the next 15 months.And by the end of that 15 months, I hadwritten the first 10,000words of the novel that Ihave published earlier this year.It took sitting down and giving myselfpermission to do somethingthat I loved again, just likeway back when I left UCLA.And I said, I'm doneliving for somebody else.I need to do this for me.I finally did it again.It just took, you know, 20 years.It was probably covid was probably prettygood for you thenbecause it stopped the world,especially right in Southern California.Yes, or that we joke that covid neverhappened because we're back.But you guys kind of shut down.Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I just think, firstof all, in general,women, we don't give ourselvespermission to be present for just us toselfishly be present for usto find out what do we like?What are our outlets?So it's already hard enough under normalcircumstances to do what you did.But then coming off of this tornado ofgrief and trauma and sicknessand death spiritually had tohave completely just been such a struggleemotionally, mentally, justeverything physically for sure.I mean, did you get anautoimmune disease during all this?Because that's a recipefor an autoimmune disease.I didn't. So I did have the support of myhusband and the insight toseek out a very good psychologist.And I did a lot of cognitive behavioraltherapy and even some MDR andreally worked through a lot of it.And that's where I started to understandand recognize some of the habits that wereformed in my familyaround putting things on me.So I mentioned my stepdad was was passedaway in January of 2020.Well, my mom is then a widow during covidlocked in her house by herself.And she is sinking deeper and deeper intoalcoholism because of herloneliness and isolation.And she ended up getting scammed out ofpretty much all oftheir retirement savings.We're talking six hundred and fiftythousand dollars taken fromher before we discovered it.And when we discovered it and we really weintervened and because we had no reason tobelieve that any of this was going on.There was no no reason. Her twin sister wasaware that she was on her phone all thetime, that people were constantly.But she didn't alert any of us. My brotheronly discovered it whenthey were on a trip in Alaska.They had arrived and he heard my mom'sphone going off constantly, constantly.He's like, who are youtalking to? What is going on?And before they did a drive where theywouldn't have access, shesaid, I need to go to a notary.I have to signsomething at a notary right now.He's like, what? We're in Alaska.Why do you need to go to know? She's like,oh, it's it's nothing big.Don't worry. And he thenhe's like, give me your phone.And he started to see what was happening.And it was one of her last remainingaccounts that she was trying to shut downand hand over all the money tosomebody who was scamming it.It was it was so it waseverything was on the news.It was I'm on an oil rig.I can't access my money.I love you so much. We'regoing to be together forever.It was the whole romance.Yeah, I think I'm familiar. Right.I feel like I saw that on social media,like people were talking about.There's mills in Indonesiathat are doing this. Yeah.It was even the picture that they were theywere circulating the picture on the news ofthis former military guy thatthey were using his picture.And that was the same picture. I mean, theyhad and she watches the news and she fellfor it hook, line and sinker.And then so when we intervened and we gother to get sober and we started to discussthat somebody needed to be put in charge ofher finances, she admitted.She's like, well,that's Jamie. And like, what?And that's when I got to look at the trustand see that when I was 17, turning 18years old, that summer after I graduatedhigh school in 1997, my mom and my stepdadwent to Tahiti for two weeks.And right before they left,they made their living trust.And even though I was 18 and I had a sisterthat was 32, a sister that was 28, abrother that was 22, they named me as theone who needed to be in charge.And that's what I had to unpack duringcovid when I was in those therapy sessions.I had to unpack like, why was I always thego to of dump it on Jamie?If if the shit hits the fan, it's Jamie'sproblem to deal with from the as soon as Iwas an adult, it started.And I had to really like when I started toreally unpack that and started paintingwatercolor and startedtaking time back for myself,I had to start establishing boundariesaround how I could possibly handle movingforward now with two widowed moms and awidowed mother-in-law and two teenagedaughters, like youngpreteens at that point.And it really to this day is something thatI still on a daily basis before I got onthis call with you, I was with my stepmombecause she has cancer and we're goingthrough her paperworkwith City of Hope and tryingto figure out the care and what.And I still am struggling on a daily basisto figure out how to balance this thisrelationship of caring for my kids, caringfor these aging parents and finding timefor myself because it's just it feelsimpossible some days.I think it's 100 percent the greatestchallenge or one of the greatest challengefor women, but especially Gen X women rightnow, because we are right there.What you're talkingabout, we are right there.Your situation is very extreme of what alot of Gen X women deal with.But I always say boundaries are self-care.But we were never everallowed to have a boundary.I mean, if we even thoughtof it, people were offended.If we wanted to reclaim anything forourselves, like it was expected for us tobe selfless, it was expected of us to giveand to not think of ourselves.And so to even try to claim boundaries nowcould also still trigger people close tous, because when you set boundaries, thepeople that have beencrossing them, they don't like that.Yep. Yeah, it can trigger awhole a whole bunch of stuff.And then you didn't really know whatthat's, you know, so did youdid you get to any answers?Because everything you just said, therewere other children in the mix, but theychose Jamie to be the one to do it.All right. Did you find anyanswers or discover anything?And so why they chose her? Yeah.Really, my my mom's explanation to mebecause my stepdad was already gone wasjust that at that point when I was going togo to UCLA and I was going to be a lawyeror a doctor, they just saw me as thegreatest promise of all four kids of themost likely to succeed, the most likely tofigure it all out for them, the mosttrustworthy of the four to handle it.Yeah, we would always have been though.She had always been thatlike she'd been the good girl.She had been the pleaser.And so that was the older role.The older two hadlittle babies at that point.So my first my oldest sister, my firstniece was born when I was a senior in highschool and my other sister, her her firstwas born when I was a freshman in college.So it was at that point that they werestarting to have their babies.And my parents, I think, also said, well,they're going to have too much on theirplate if something happens.They've got babies to deal with.So Jamie doesn't JamieJamie can deal with this.But then even when you did have babies, itwas still Jamie can do it.It was it was you were.Christina was sick.You were always in your role.You were put in the role andit was just expected of you.And so it's amazing that you had thewherewithal to go totherapy during all this.And of course, that youhave such a supportive husband.That's huge.But just the fact that you were able tobecause what you did andare doing is healing yourself.The fact that you started this healingjourney, you saved yourself because I'msure you were drowning.Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.And some days those boundaries that I'veset are immediately jumped over.They, you know, theydie right into my life.And I have to I have to recognize when oldhabits are popping in and I'mjust I'm just fixing things.And I need to like, no, no, no, no, no.We're going to pullthose boundaries back again.It's a daily challenge because this wasonly in the last five yearsthat I really learned to do this.And life didn't stop being hard.I mean, my my stepdadpassed away in January of 2020.Well, my mother in law had a stroke thispast October and shepassed away in January.My stepmom's cancerhas just been discovered.My mom's twin sister has cancer.And so she's you know, my mom's reallyemotional about all of that.And and we had my mom hadno money to keep paying.She was in a four thousand square foothouse on five acres and she didn't havemoney to pay those bills.Her Social Securitycertainly wasn't doing it.So my husband and I were covering thedifference until she agreed to move.And I've been managing her finances forfive years now and reallymaking them last as long as possible.And really, I have to on a daily basis,like discuss with her budgets and like howto not spend money willy nilly because shefor so long, my stepdadowned his own business.They had plenty of money.They it was never an issue.And so she never developed those habits ofbeing physically responsible, even thoughmy husband has a successful career.And we have plenty of money.He was raised in farm country in NorthernCalifornia with, you know,a teacher and a librarian.He always was fiscally responsible.And that's the household that we've livedin for our whole marriage for twenty threeyears is being fiscally responsible.And so me, you know, me, my relationshipwith my mom at thispoint is really contentious.I loved her and had such a closerelationship that Inamed my daughter after her.And now she's in early stages of dementia,all that drinking plus family history.She's really, youknow, starting to decline.And it's like having a teenager in a lot ofways, her impulsivity and irresponsiblechoices that she makes.Thank God she's still sober.But I'm, you know, I'm not going to kidmyself that that's necessarily going toalways be the casebecause I don't live with her.She refused to move herebecause her twin sister is dying.And so she wants to be close to her.And so we're it's just it'sthere out where I grew up.So about 75 miles fromhere, which is just long enough.Yeah. But you're having to manage her fromshe is far enough where she canget herself into some trouble.Yes. Yes. I worry about her with drivingwhen I when I happened to be driving it onthe same street with her.And I see her and she does something thatI'm like, oh, my God. Oh, my goodness.You almost got killed just now. What areyou doing? Yeah. Yeah.So she's there and she she lives alone.She does. And she lives in a in aretirement community, but in her own home.My brother is all of10 miles from her and hehas not taken the responsibility.And so it's still like you said, life isdidn't get any easier.You're still in it, thatyou're still in the ocean of it.It's just that in in the midst of thestorm, you know, with your husband's help,throwing you that that lifeline of just I'mhere, I'm here, I'm here.But invariably, it's up to you to save youto really save yourself and to set thoseboundaries and and boundary setting.I tell my daughter this especially becauseI try to everything I've learned.I'm like, I want you to know this muchearlier. And she's almost 25.Boundary setting is a skill that just likeexercise, just like, you know, all thethings we have to work on.It's not something like, oh, I setboundaries. Now they'reset. Everything's fine.It's something like you said daily has tobe reset, reset,especially when it's midlife.Like you're not quite midlife like I am.But when it happens, when you've lived yourwhole life with no boundaries,it's it's really creating awhole new life for yourself.So it's it's a whole new playing field andit has to be acknowledged every single dayor else you get lost in the ocean again.Yeah, yeah. So exactly.So my stepmom really leaned in in 2015 tome helping with my dadin the hospital every day.And she didn't have to really accept theresponsibility ofunderstanding all the doctor stuff.And now that she's sick and by herself,she's like, no, Jamie, come on.This is your job. You need to.And so I've really had to be like, OK,let's be really clear.Let's talk about how I can be most helpfulin and still keep up mymy responsibilities because I have a life.I write. I'm marketing a book.I am visiting my daughter in New York City.I'm a mom to my 16 year old who's here inthe house and a junior in high school.I I'm not I'm not doingthis on a daily basis with you.I love you very much.I care very much about your, you know,hopefully ability to healand put this behind you.But we need to have really clearunderstanding of how I'm going to help.And and yeah, every day that thoseconversations come up and she can be veryemotionally manipulative.My mom can be very emotionallymanipulative, justsobbing because I'm an empath.As I said, I was alwaysthat bleeding heart liberal.Yeah, they definitely.But Jamie, you're theone who understands this.I need you. I can dealwith this without you.Yeah, I have a whole thing about empathybecause I'm also an empath.And I learned for myself that I have tosave my empathy for certain situations andcertain people in my life,probably meeting mychildren and my husband and my mom.She lives with me and my dogs.But I'm going through life, feeling empathyfor for everyone and every situation Ilearned completelydrained my my energy, my soul.It's it caused so much internal stressbecause I wasn't holding any emotionalboundaries for myself because I wasliterally going througheveryone's life experience with them andcarrying the baggage of what they weregoing through along withwhat I was going through.So with each person I took their OK, nowI'm going to take your emotional.I'm feeling everything they're feeling.And so what I learned to do in order tosave myself was I lean on sympathy whereyou can go through itwith someone and compassion.But I've had to really recognize, OK,you're you're falling intotheir experience too much.This is their experience.This is not your experience.You've got to pull yourself back or you'regoing to be drained like you used to be.Does that make sense? Yeah.And I heard you saythat in a recent episode.I think that was maybeyour Charlie Kirk episode.And I that absolutely resonated with me.I also, though, I don't know if thisresonates with you, but being a childthrough all of thisthis trauma my whole life,I am naturally very calm and level headedin the midst of chaos.And so somebody like my stepmom wants me tobe there because I don't look like anempath in that situation.I'm not crying with her.She'll be a crying mess.And I am very focused on then clearheadedand figuring it outand solving the problem,because that is what I was trained to do mywhole life for survival in this weirdsituation that I was raised in.Right. And so it is it's much more theemotional toll afterthe adrenaline goes away.And like what even when the girls werelittle and the kids were put in bed.And then I would like just I would justlike break down like and that's what myhusband would be there for me for.And so learning to to breathe through itand to not be in that chaos all the time,but to really separatemyself from it as much as I can.So like, you know, how about I help you tomy stepmom with theportal from my own house?I can I can log in and I can look at thingsand figure some things out.But I don't need to beright there with you.Like I don't you don'tneed me present for that.Really trying to set boundaries literallyaround the amount of time that I am in thechaos is the best way that I actually helpthat sort of emotional empath side of me.Yes, during the middle of it, I'm not intheir experience at all.And I don't think I would have survived mychildhood if I was in the experience ofthese parents who are screaming at eachother on the side of a freewayas they change cars from on Christmas Dayfrom one to the you know, like I I couldn'tbe in the I had I literally would just shutdown and go to sleep in the car.And like I would just go to sleep to turnit all off as my own act.So much of that. Yeah.And so that's yeah, that'sI agree with the sympathy.And yet at the same time, I think there'sthere's still anemotional toll no matter what.It just doesn't thathow the adrenaline of the.For sure. But you just nailed it becauseit's funny you said that because I I'mgreat under pressure.Like if there's if there's an if someone issomeone's hurt like if we're talkingemergency situation when I'm the most calmbecause you just got thehands you just emotionally.Yeah. And in fact, and this isn't anemergency situation, but last Thanksgivingor two things, giving ago, I was making oneof those sweet potato casseroles and I hadmarshmallows on top and I forgot about it.I put the boil on just to brown it.But of course, as most a lot of us in thekitchen, we're doing in the last, I alwayssay the last 30 minutes before you puteverything on the table.It's one of the most top five moststressful moments of everyone's life ever.And unless you've donethat, you don't understand.So it was one of those in the oven.We open it up and it's on fire.And Brian's like running around like achicken with his head cut offlike, oh, and I was like, no, no.But you know, you were.And I just was like, oh, it's on fire.And I shut it.And then he's kind oflike, what are we doing?I'm like, no, it'll justbecause it doesn't get air.It'll just turn off the oven.Yeah.Cut the oxygen off.And then and then everyone's like, and Ihope that I was impressed.If I'm usually the commonone, too, that one threw me off.I didn't like what the hell do we do here?Those emergency situations.But it's because we grew updisconnecting in the chaos.So we actually go into that mode and we'relike, OK, I know how to do this.My my humanity switches off.I'm just going to go right to, you know,going through the motions.But and and what yousaid about losing it after.Yes, that's that's that's so right on that.You know, I've cried alonein a bathroom so many times.I can't even tell you any time.So many times sitting on the floor leaningagainst the door sobbing.Yeah. Yeah.Once you can breathe. Yeah.Yeah. Once you can breathe.I'm sorry.No, I was just I think you're the word yousaid that stood out to meas you've trained for this,meaning that chaos.I've been training for this.It's my time to shine in a sense.Yeah, when that happens and you've beentraining since you were two.She knows one or two. Yeah, I just I mean,the fact that you're soI'm just so impressed that every everythingthat you had going on,that you still were able to start watercoloring and and justtake that step for yourself.It's so impressive and that you honoredyourself in that moment.And I'm sure therapy did help.But still, you had to do it.You had. Yeah.I don't know if the perfect storm couldhave existed in any otherway because you're right.In in SouthernCalifornia, everything shut down.California was like you are locked down.And so for the first time in my husband'scareer, never before thatcould somebody who workedin finance work from home.That did not happen because the proprietaryinformation like the clientcould never even take it on a zip drive.They had computers at work that stayed atwork and nothing came home with you.And so he would stay at work for 15 hoursrather than him home.Right. And then suddenly, March 13th.Now you're working inour bedroom 20 hours a day.And our kids are in their bedrooms.Yeah. And I'm notdriving people all around.And I actually had no idea.But in at Christmas time, we bought a brandnew puppy that came home March 7th.So we ended up with a pandemic puppywithout knowing we werehaving a pandemic puppy.So he was like yappy and needed to be dealtwith to keep them ableto do all their Zoom calls and everything.So I needed.So I was walking seven miles a day with himlistening to podcasts.And I was exhausted.I was so drained and exhaustedfrom these six years of loss.And now the world is literally like therewere there were all the BLM protestsand there were fireshappening all over the country.And and people people had lost their minds.And so I think that it was it was a totalsalvation, like a self-preservationmechanism of mine to click on that.Let's let's sit in the garage and paintwatercolor because I need.Yeah, I need to survive.Nothing in the rest of the world is tellingme that that's possible.But I can do this rightnow and it's going to be OK.And my puppy can be at my feet and it's notnobody's going to be bothered.And it's going to be OK.It was total self-preservation.Yeah, mom's going to be in the garage.Let me do my thing.But can we just take a moment?Because how old were youduring all this from 2014 to 2020?How old were you?At 2014, I was thirty six.All right. Thirty five.Thirty five. OK, so thirty five.And forty right. Forty forty one.OK, so you were right.I'm forty six now.So in the last five years, since forty oneis when I've really changedand like started setting boundaries and gotmy master's and all the things.Yeah. OK. Amazing.But also there is definitelyyou could have been starting someperimenopause stuff during that time, too,because period around thirty seven and itsaverage is early 40s.And that's when women start having all thisother stuff going on.And half the time they don't even know why.Like, you know, having trouble, sleep,anxiety, depression,like putting on weight,all these different things.You could have been havingsome hormonal stuff going on, too.But so much was going on.You probably wouldn't evenrecognize it at the time.It's possible.I also, though, have hadan IUD for like 15 years.So that has helpedwith a lot of the payment.I don't have really any of those symptomsbecause that small amount of hormones thatcome through the IUD have really helped.I don't I don't suffer yet.I hope I won't.Huge because I think abouteverything you were going through.So that's another tool thatprobably helped was that you hadyou had, quote unquote,hormone replacement therapywithout even gettinghormone replacement therapy.Like you had that helping you.Thank God. Because I've been like thatwould have been, you know, crazyif you were also dealing with that, too.But now are the watercolors behind you?Did you do those?Oh, yeah, those were really early ones.I like I like to havethem sort of as a reminder.Because as I said, Istarted in July of 2020and those were all tutorials that I wasdoing by January of 2021.I had painted this is my dog Blondie.I painted this portrait of her.I was doing my own compositions and myMother's Day of 2021.I did this rose that's covered.I wanted to learn howto paint a water drop.And that is covered inlike thousands of water drops.So I spent my Mother's Day sitting therepainting thousands of waterdrops on this giant rose.So I like to keep those toremind myself that like, you know,where there's a will, youcan you can figure out the way.Like if you want tolearn, you'll be able to do it.And so those were early buttransformative in my creating my,you know, artistic style and believing thatno matter how many hoursit would take, I couldfigure it out and do it. And yeah.I mean, if that's that's the beginner.Yeah, this. Yeah, this isI was six months into my journey.So it's Jamie. Yeah, I know.Exactly. But it was that are listening.She's got some of herwatercolors behind her.If you watch on YouTube,you'll be able to see it.But I can see thedroplets actually on the rose.Did you do the cover of your book, too?I did. Yeah.So there's thedroplets to get a better idea.Beautiful, beautiful.So have you had to be hard?It takes a little time, but once youfigured it out, it's like the samebasically the same techniqueover and over and over again.So where did thewatercolor journey take you?Was it something that you just kept in yourgarage or did you expand?Did you share it with people?Yeah, so I was painting so prolificallythat I would start giving them to people.Yeah, I would.I'd make everybody'sbirthday cards out of watercolor.I started doing a lot of that.And then by the time I was actually likeseeking out publishers for my book,I knew that I needed tolike have a website and stuff.So at that point, Idecided to start making productslike note cards from some of my paintingsand putting them on a websiteand just starting to get some videos onlineof me painting and things like that,just to get a sort of name for myself.So like all of those handles on likeInstagram and TikTok or Jamie gets creativebecause I was I was using my watercolor tobuild a little bit of a followingas I was trying to get my book publishedand then getting it publishedand started marketing it.Yeah, I did.I get all my best ideaswhen I'm walking the dogs.Yeah, we have two dogs.So I I was on a walk at one point and likeI just got this visionin my head of what Iwanted it to look like.Because the book is set in the 90s.I wanted it to have very like bright colorsand like also sort of a tiny bitof like a vintage feel, but like cleanlines and everything.And so I had learned Canvaalready and I just came homeand like started putting it together.And and then when I actually was goingthrough the publishing process,I did work with a cover designer and I shegave me 10 different covers.And I said, I'm sorry, Idon't like any of them.I like mine better.And so she actually liketouched up my design and made it.You know, she she did like the tie into theback and like she she formallymade it into a cover, but I didthe artwork from the beginning.It's amazing.I mean, you truly are an artist.You really are an artist.And it's so impressive.And it has to have been so cool.Did you sell some of your stuff?Have you sold like thenote cards or any of that?Yeah, yeah, I have.I've sold I've sold quite a bit and I'veparticipated even in some art fairsand art shows and it's just it's funbecause life is still hard.I don't put a lot of energyinto marketing that stuff.I just have it available.And as events come upthat fit into our schedule,I'll participate in anart show or something.But I don't I really havewanted to keep the watercolor.I call it like pure for me.I do what I feel inspired to do.I paint what I want to paintjust because I want to paint it.So people often ask if theycan commission artwork from me.And I'm like, no, I'm not doing that.I don't want you to sit here and tell mewhat you want me to paint.So the only commissioningI've ever allowed to happen isI donate pet portraits todifferent organizations.So like 826 LA, there'seight to sixes all over.They work with inner citykids on writing and getting theirresumes ready,applying to college and stuff.So I have donated pet portraits that and sothen they they auction them offand I will do a petportrait, whoever wins that option.And same thing with the girlswhen they were in thebasketball program to the high school,I would donate each yearone or two pet portraits.And so that's the closest I've ever come tocommissioning artworkbecause I like animals and I like seeingtheir sweet personalities.And so I'm like, OK, I'll do this.But I have really strict like this is thesize it's going to be.You can only have oneanimal in it like I might.And basically you get what you get.Yeah, that's not your dictation.Yeah, that's so very clear, though, likeyou're donating it almost for charityor it's a you know, it'svolunteering of your time.So it stays along those same lines ofyou're keeping it still in that space.So yeah, I just reallyI like the watercolorto be for like nourishing my soul.I really like it to be something thatinspired that I get inspiredand I sit down and I want to paint and I doa lot of painting on vacationsor like I'll take a picture of a sunsetwhen I'm, you know, outand I will go in and paint it.But I I don't want I don't wantto make it so that my paintingbecomes something that I have to do inorder to earn an income.I'm blessed. I'm really very blessed that Idon't have to do that.I know not everybody hasthat level of privilege,but I'm grateful that I that I do and thatI can set that boundary for myselfbecause it really doesfeel like it's just mine.And it's just my food for my soul.Right. Your outlet. Yeah.Yeah. And you've set a boundary around it.You cherish it and you protect it.And so I'm I'm sure you don't have an issuesetting that boundary.You probably fight thatwhen you're like, absolutely.I can't pass this one.You know, you're willing to fight for that.Yeah, not every day can Ipaint for hours and hours.Like I did during COVID.But like one of my my boundaries is thatevery day I do a sketchand I color it in my little sketchbook.And that's like 15 to 20 minutes everysingle day, even Christmas day.Like this is an exercise that I like amreally strict about doing for me.And then I also write my three journalpages every single day.It doesn't matter what ishappening in the rest of the world.If I can do those two things,I can do them on an airplane.I can do them anywhere I am.And like that is protected.And I start my daythat way every single day.That's amazing.Set me off on the path of like what'simportant to me will matter today,no matter what elsehappens the rest of the day.You're getting to yourself.It's so you're honoring yourself.I love that.That's it's so important.And it's something we could all learn, menand women, but especially women.We give so much of ourself that like youjust said, even if you'reyou make sure and give yourself 15 to 20minutes a day just for youbecause it sets the tone and it probablyhelps you then continue to do thatfor the rest of the dayand exercise the boundaries.Exactly.No, I was just thinking I ithas to also be like that relief.Now you can fill back up, but then you gopaint or you go right.And it's out.You've released it from your mind or body.And right. I assume so.Yeah, that's exactly right.Especially the journal writing.That's that's something that Julia or JuliaCameron always in the artist way.She really pushes thethree pages of journal writing.And it's not going to be your good writingthat you do when you'rewhen you want to sit downand write, like write, write.That's not your journal.Your journal is to clear the mind.It's to really justget all that garbage out.And so, yeah, if if something happens tome, I am told my family, like,please just burn the journals becausethere's a lot of rage on the page in there.There's a lot of complaining about all theappointments that are going to fillup the rest of my day and well, this isjust how today's going to go.And I'm going to probably only do thislittle sketch and nothing elsecreative the rest of the day,but like I get it out there.And that is so like you said, that is soimportant for just clearing outlike my feelings about thischaotic world I'm in matter.And my my ability toprocess it is more possible.And I can approach everything with morecalm, rational responsesbecause I've given space tohow I feel about all of it.And I've given space to my creative needs,even when the chaos is still around us.Even when I am going to a funeral that day,I still paint in the morning.Like, it's still happening.You know, it's just I love it.I love it.Are all of your paintings, are they brightand say colorful and cheerful?Or do you have any that are kind of darkand, you know, that type of thing?It's funny that you say that.So I do lean very brightand cheerful and colorful.I do a lot of beach landscapes.I love California beach landscapes.Andbut when I was writing the book and Idecided to give my main characterwatercolor also to deal with her traumathat she's going through in it,I was very much in the mindset of a bitter,frustrated teenage girl.And I found part of my exercise in writingwas really like doing some of the thingsshe was doing, you know,when she would eat, drink Mr.Pibb and eat a nutter butter like I woulddo that so that I could really describe itand like go through the sensation of it.And same thing when she waspainting, I would be painting.And so some dark things reallydid come out during that time.And I have that work tosort of accompany the book.And I've shared some of it, like I have aPinterest board and things like thatwhen I was coming upwith some of the ideas.And so I've shared some of it.And yeah, it just I haveto get into that mindset.And usually because my my watercolor issuch a precious thing to me that I reallyI want it to be a joyful experience.And I tend to be drawn to paint things thatare bringing me more color,light, happiness, joy,rather than the dark stuff.The dark stuff ends upin the journal pages.And it's a balance.You're balancingyourself with the watercolor.OK, so let's talk about the book.It's called Absorbed.Yes. So when when did this start?I know you said you started the first10,000 words after you the watercolorled led you to that.It gave you the bridge to get to that pointand spark your writing again.So what happened from there?So I started the book literally.I was sitting on a beach in Hawaii for mygrandmother, my dad's mom's funeral.We were spreading her ashesbecause she had just died.And it was my last term of college.I had six weeks to getthese 10,000 words written.And my oldest daughter was beginning hersophomore year of high school.And my youngest daughterwas beginning eighth grade.And school was starting the next day.Literally, we were leaving on the plane toget home and get them into school.And I said, I need to write what I know.That's the only way that 10,000 words thatmake any sort of logical sense are goingto come out of me isif I write what I know.I was like, OK, well, what do I know?Well, I love music.My husband and I, when we started dating,started going to all theseconcerts, punk rock concerts.And we still to this daygo to concerts all the time.And we are really welove the music of the 90s.I'm like, OK, I know that Iwas a lifeguard in the 90s.And one, you know, some of my favoritemovies were like Taddie Shack and like Iloved 90210 and I lovedlike Dawson's Creek and I loved Clueless.And so I was like, OK, I can do this.I could write a story aboutlike a teenage girl in the 90sbecause I'm surrounded by teenage girlsalso with two teenagers at the time.I have teenage girls all around me.I could write about a teenage girl in the90s and it could be like Baywatch meetsClueless at the community pool.And so I just gave me like all these ideasthey just started generating.And so I just I started makinglike a scrapbook of ideas, like pullingpictures off the Internetof who, you know, who would look like whichcharacters would look like what?Who did they want to be when they grew up?What kind of cars did they drive?You know, what kinds of food did they like?What did they, you know,fight about all these things?And it just it generated so many ideas.And I really was drawn tothe idea of of telling a storythat touched on the topics that arepertinent to teenagers now.But we're very much apart of our life back then.And some things I said it in 1996, whichwas really important because that wasactually when the Olympics happened inAtlanta and there was the bombing at theOlympics, so that was a big moment.There was that was the year thatIndependence Day, the huge blockbustermovie came out, right?We would like line up around the theater toget our tickets and get our seatsbecause you couldn't use to, you know, buya ticket over the phone or something.You couldn't reserve a seat.You had to go sitthere and line up for that.And Planned Parenthoods were being bombedin that middle 90s time.There was a huge debate happening overwomen's right to say no and to have achoice about their body and about theirbirth control and about abortions.And all of those things we have not evolvedthat much as a society becausewe're still dealing with thiskind of stuff happening right now.Right. Yeah.So I wanted I really wanted to talk in astory that's like a coming of agestory of a teenage girl, I wanted to talkto both the Gen X and older millennialmoms now and their teenage daughters andsay, like, you actually understand eachother better than you realize, because whatyou are going through is what we weregoing through. Maybe wedidn't have a cell phone.Maybe we didn't have Internet.But we had Nikki Taylor and Cindy Crawfordthat we were comparing our bodies to.We were told that the only way that youwould ever be desirable is to wear aWonder Bra and to take FinFen to like lose all the weight.Like we had the same kinds of pressures onour bodies and we had the same kind ofpressures to the feministrevolution has come a long way.But we were at that stage being told womencan do it all and should do it all.And girls are learning thatexact same lesson right now.And the pressure is huge on them.So I really wanted to write a story thatwould show that would bridge that gap andshow moms how they could be morecompassionate to their daughters becausethey really do understandwhat they're going through.But it would draw them in through the popculture and through going back in timewhen cell phones didn't exist and that thesame story could tell those teenagedaughters, you can talk to your momsbecause they really do get it because theyreally were there. And and so far, likeI've gone to all thesebook clubs of and even like boy moms havesaid, I'm so glad you wrote this bookbecause there are scenes that took me backto that nuance of being in the carand being afraid to say no, because, youknow, you're so insecure and this is yourbig crush and you don'twant him to like hate you.And and so is itconsent or is it not consent?Is not saying no.The same is saying yes.Well, obviously it's not.And so these moms now of teenage boys arelike, I know how to have thatconversation now because I was right backthere where Stacy in your book is whereshe's so scared and she has natural desiresin her to want to be with this guy.But she's not ready.And like this this constant tug and pull ofhow to do the right thing and say theright thing and look the right way.And it all feels likenone of it makes sense.And she's just trying to figure her waythrough it and making somany mistakes along the way.So that's awesome.Anyway, yeah.And, you know, and you're right.Everything you just said, it's parallel.We went through it just in a different timeand it's nuanced, but it's the sameshit. It's the same.I mean, I will say that.I don't know if it's with social media orwhat, but at least with the Gen Zgeneration,I think that the the consent,at least it's talked about more.Where with us, it wasn'tit wasn't even a thing.It wasn't eventhat word wasn't in our vocabulary.No, at least it's there.Do you know what I mean?It's a subject that is discussed.It's not a new concept.Yeah, I am.I agree with you.I'm also a little concerned because I'm asI'm understanding it, Gen Z is likeactually having the leastsexual experiences of any generation, likethey're really just notnot blossoming sexually the way that mostteenagers did in all the generationsbefore and really coming into their own.They seem to be like putting the brakes onbefore they even get there.Really?I'm finding that a lot.I'm amazed and I've actually looked intosome research on it and it's it'sincredible to me. There are definitelystill kids being teenagers andmaking those choices, but it issignificantly lower than it was.So are you talking aboutbecause Gen Z is 15 to 28.You're probably not talkingabout the ones in their 20s.You're more talking about the teenagers.I yeah, I mean, I but I think the studiesare even on the ones in their 20s thatthey just are in general having a lot lesssex than their counterparts of thesame age 20 years ago, 40 years ago.They just in generalare having a lot less sex.It's a lot more online connecting and notphysical connecting with other individuals.They're just not crossing over into thephysical realm with a lot of people.That makes sense.Well, and the datingapps are such a nightmare.So there's a lot of games going on there.A lot of where people are like, yeah, let'smeet up and then they block them.They ghost them, whatever.So that's a whole thing.But yeah, the building the relationshiptexting, texting, texting and having likea three month what would have been threemonths for us dating face to face,they can accomplish it all within a week.It's a constant talking.It's condensed down.You know,but so other than the online.Could it is it at all that young women are?I'm not going to say I'm not going to sayI'm having more self-respect.That's not what I mean.But are they being more intentional withwho they have sex with?Is that generation?You know what I'm trying to say?I do. I do think Iunderstand what you're saying.And I hope that that's the case.I think for a lot of Gen Z, they're stillon the younger side to maybe evenarticulate that that'sexactly what's happening.I do think that there's also these arethese are teenagers and young 20s,somethings who grew up in the me togeneration and they grew up being afraidof what happens to women and hearing thatyou can get in an Uber and thenthat person could attack you, that youcould meet somebody who said that theyjust wanted to get to know you through adating app and that person might attackyou. And I genuinely think that a lot ofyoung women are afraid of meeting someoneand they are not meeting them face to face.They're meeting them online and they knowthat that online persona could becompletely false. And sothey're just very hesitant.They're just really likeyou've got to go a lot further in exposingwho you are as an individual and beingreally open and honest with them beforethey'll even come close to considering asexual relationship.What are you talking?Would you say what?I mean, I have so I have nieces that areturning 30 and then my my daughter,the youngest is 16 and I've seen it throughthat whole 14 year gap.I've seen it with all of them that theyjust when they meet someone and theystart dating, they're a lot slower thanthan we were to even get into a positionwhere they might have sex. Likethey just don't even like, no,you don't come to myhouse. I don't go to your house.Yeah, I'll meet you there.I won't go in the car with you there.Let's just hang out asfriends for a long time.We'll snap each other for six months.You know, all these things,they just are much more hesitant.They're much more cautious because they Ireally do believe they've grown up in aworld that they should they believe they'vebeen taught that they should beafraid that they can be attacked at anypoint because that's what they've seenin so many of these stories.I wonder, do you think that's an eastversus west coast thing?I don't know because I don't know if that'shappening here as much.And I mean, because our daughter is 24,almost 25 and our son's 28and I don't I feel like we'veseen more of a hookup culture.I don't know if it's still happening withthe youngest one, right?He's just on the other two and all theirfriends and all the kids there.I don't want to say all their friends.Let me rephrase the kids their age.Yeah, it felt like.That they are maybewere older than the me too.So they've kind of got their wings belowthem in a sense or they're I don't know.They were because that was that was whenthey were in high school.That was what wasn't that like 2012, 2014,15, like somewhere around 15.I think the marches were happening around2015, 2016, something like that.Yeah, it weren't happening here.I think I think Florida.Yeah, I think maybeFlorida versus California thing.I don't know.But also my niece is in Minnesota.Very similar.Yeah.But what she's talking about as far as it'salmost like because I've seen it.I know what you're talking about.It's almost like there's so muchinformation and there's so much like everyworry that a mother has is now on socialmedia, on the Internet.Be care like how we just say to them,be careful we have ourtalks and they go out the door.Now it's every other tick tock short istalking about now I just have to tell youa story I was at Publix and there wassomething on my car and I had someonewalk that stuff, but I mean it's constant.It's constant.So spontaneity and thejust taking those just having those likeexciting moments where you just let it allgo. They're not able to let it all gobecause they have so much anxiety aboutwhat could happen.Well, that's everything's beingfilmed so they could bedestroyed in a second.And fentanyl is a real thing.You know, we might have gone to a party andlike somebody hands you a joint andyou just whatever or you just take theright to have these kids are so aware ofgetting roofied of getting handed somethingthat the first time they tryanything I could kill them that moment.And so they are very afraid of that.So I just think in general, when we wereteenagers and connecting with people inreal time and hormones were strong in bothsides of that connection and thingshappened, that's just not what I'm seeinghappening because they aren't smelling eachother's pheromones when they are onsnap. They aren't, youknow, getting inebriatedbecause they're afraid ofwhat might be handed to them.I'm not saying no one is.Certainly there are kids.There are certainly inour community, though.Growing up, I would say probably about 50percent of the kids I knew were going toparties and hooking up with people and kindof, you know, experimenting with drugsand sex and alcohol in my kids school, Iwould say it's probably ten percent of thekids are doing that, not 50, not evenremotely close to 50, which these kids are.Us. Yeah. Yeah.They're they're they'rereally shut down and they are.They're studying or they're playing theirsports or they're like so overcommittedthat they just don't even have the time.They're much more responsible.Yeah, they are.In a lot of ways.Yeah. Yeah.Because that's because when we were growingup, it was like you went.We had keggers and we would justgo out and party every weekend.And but to your point, we were neverworried about fentanyl.I mean, the most chemicalthing we had was acid and coke.But no one was hosting me with that.No, there wasn't anyof that to worry about.And that does that does happen in Floridabecause there's I know of a kid that thatit's happened to. But so and that'shappening everywhere.But so you're right. You have that.So you don't have just the inhibition withdrugs and alcohol that we we did.And the roofie. Yeah.My daughter and all her friends constantlyare aware of their drinks all throughcollege in high school, they were alwayswith their friend groups, guys and girls.But so there wasn't that worry.But once they got to college and then atthe bars now, that is that's an automaticthing. They don't even think about it.They just exactly withwatching their drinks.They are trained to be cautious.And kind of stick together.Have you noticed that with your daughter?Yes, they operate as a better unit thanwhen you guys were younger or age.You guys fought or were caddy, right?You would run the bosscompete with my part of Gen X.I don't know about your part, but thegirlhood in Gen Z is amazing.They're very in general, very supportive.They hype each other up.They're like, oh, myGod, I love your dress.We have great emotional intelligence towhen they do have those caddy moments,which they do girlshave those caddy moments.Yeah, yeah, yeah.They actually work through it and figure itout for the most part.It's incredible. I believe it is.Thank God.You guys have great emotional intelligenceto address these issues with women.Of course, friendsfall through it, fall out.Of course, there's keggers with some kids.Of course, there's kidsgetting knocked up in high school.I don't think that'sever going to 100% go away.Right. I'm just saying that the differencebetween what it was like inthe 90s and what it's like now,these kids are raised ina world of being cautious.Also, I am leaning more towards the youngerones because like my my onewho's a junior in high school, she wasentering middle school when Covid hit.Her sixth grade year was entirely online.These kids learned to be afraid at the timethat they should have been feeling moreindependence and more excitementabout the world. And instead, they werelike, everybody only sees me online.So I better not screw uponline because that's the only likeit all needs to be perfect.And when I do get face to face with them,we have to keep ourdistance and we have to be careful.And then as they even came together in highschool, they're all just realcautious around each other.That was that generation of those thatyoung like those 16,17 year olds right now.It is amazing to watch justhow they court one another onlinefor a year and then end up no, we're notgoing to actually have a relationship.Like they just don't even go there.Like they spent somuch time being cautious.They shot their shot online.And then it's like you've gonethrough the whole arc online.And then it's kind of like we did it, butyou didn't really do anything.Well, my older son, he hates social media.But one of the things he always says isit's so fake because you have all thistime to come up with the perfect response.So that organic back and forth, that faceto face, that instant of I'm getting thereal you because it'shappening in real time doesn't exist.So he's like, it's great for guys becauseshe'll say something.And I've got however long I want to come upwith just the perfect response.And he goes, and then you watch guys goout on a date and they're tongue tiedbecause they have to they can't the skillof doing this. And he didattribute some of that to Covid.He did. He said that when heviewed it as being sociallysomething, because he was getting out ofcollege at that time in 2020, 2019.He graduated.So all those kids that got out of collegethat normally would go into the barscene like after work, they get their jobs,their meeting singles and going on theweekends and stuff thatdidn't happen for them.So that was that was all online.So that social stunting and then combinethat with being afraid of everything andthe anxiety. So then there's no inhibition.There's no fun free.So I never attributed it tostunting their sexual, theirnormal teenage sexual experiences.But it did.I did. I thought about that.I think there's going to be an interestingpendulum always swings.It swings really far one way and then itswings really far the other way.And I think, you know, a lot of thesethings are very naturalanimal instincts that willeventually kick in in certain ways.And it's going to be interesting to seewhat happens as they get older and howthis evolves and changes. But I think justtheir whole approach to the worldis very, very different and relationships.And like you were saying about the texting,like the girls side of that isthey're like curating the perfect responseamongst all their girlfriends.They're like, OK, so if I say it this way,how would he take it?What if I say it this way?Oh, let's check in with thatguy and see what he would think.He's our friend.So he'll give us feedback onwhat he would think if I did this.Right. They're curating it all.And then, yeah, you get them face to faceand they're so afraid of like,what if I say or do the wrong thing? Yeah.Yeah.It's funny you say thatthe pendulum is swinging.This is almost likegoing back to the 40s or 50s.I'm going to go through this period of ofconservatism or purity type of thing.And they'll come outreally well on the other side.But it's not even like it's been that way.But yeah, yeah, yeah.When they all figure maybe when they all goto college and they have to see eachother, although I'm hearing that's more andmore online and you don't know.There's so many fewer boys in the in-personcollege experience toothan there ever were before.So that's like that's an interesting partof my older daughter being at this school.She's like, there arealmost no straight men here.How is this? Like she's like, I don't Idon't even I don't think I could meet a guyto date right now because they're all theguys I'm meeting are like gay or they are,you know, they're a little tooaggressive with her in person.And so she's really afraid.And she's like, what are you doing?Like back up.So are the straight guys like are they justtaking online courses or something?Are they just as I understand it again,like these studies are being done.There's just fewer and fewer and fewer guysgoing to college at this point thanmore before in New York.Yeah. OK.Yeah. And she's at a very liberal school.It's about four thousand students.But it is like I think her school is like70 percent female at this point.Yeah. New York's changed for sure.What a trip.Yeah, I never had correlated and I have toknow I have to really likea villain. I could do 15.I mean, he's on his phone a lot, but he hehe has like he hangs out with the girl.He does all those normal things.So, yeah.And they do get together.But I don't know.It's like in large groups.Yeah. That's how my 16 year old it's alwayshis friends in large groups.Yeah. They hang out.And yeah. So but now I'm going to have tolike really watch and really observe this.But I didn't ever think about, again, howit affects just that normal.Because, yeah, we were all just kind ofjust do whatever I generate because wewere the 80s. We were right.Yeah, we were crazy.But I think the 90s was very similar when Italked to people who went throughhigh school and college in the 90s becausewe graduated college on three.I think you guys were verysimilar to what we did in the 80s.Yeah. I think it's the same.So party in a field.Yeah. Probably shouldn't havegotten in your car and driven.But you probably did.We all did that.I wonder, though, did the didI think Hollywood wasprobably rocked by me too.Right.With the breath.There's Holly weird in some ways.So the lot of the that I.So is that in your news cycle there?If you're watching local news like that,you know, because it's miles away for us.It's multiple states, 3000miles away type of thing.Is that just like front and center there?I mean, like the Harvey Weinstein thing.Yeah, yeah. Like that that affected a hugepopulation in this area.And so, yeah, those the ripple effect ofthat into all of the different.We have so many industriesthat touch the Hollywood.And like it had a really widespread effect.Most of the lawyers that were dealing withthe Weinstein stuff were hereand their clients were here and like, so itwas all very loud and vocal herefor sure and still to this day is and yeah,women women have very littlehesitation about standing up for like, youcan't talk to me that way.You can't you do a crossingline with me right here and.What's her name, BlakeLively and that other guy there?Right, just in Baldoni.Doni. Yeah. Yeah.I'm sure that's local news, right?For us, that's national news type of thing.But actually, they'reall the way in New York.Those all those people are in New York, butit's very front and center here.Yeah, we get all of it.Yeah. In the industry.That's interesting that what you said aboutthat the Me Too is so very like front andcenter there because like out here,it's it's like exists and what you'retalking about exists and everyone knowsthat happened and theresults of it exists here.But it's not like a topical thing.It's not just an act up anddown the whole East Coast.Yeah, like we've done a lot oftraveling over the, you know,our someplace travel across the we're upand down the all the way up to likeBoston or, you know, it's not as I don'tthink it's as topical.I know one talks about it, but do peoplestill talk about it out there?Yeah, I mean, in fact, my husband, I juststarted watching a show that wasFriends and Neighbors.Have you heard of Friends and Neighbors?And it's a pretty recent show.And and like one of the major things thatblows up his life is even though he wasa divorced man, a younger woman in hisoffice came on to him and he loses hiscareer because of it.Like it's so it's still it's even showingup in in still what's being put out therebecause it's still very much a prevalentreality in a lot of the other.I just like I assume that a lot of theresults from it have been implementedinto corporate Americaat the very least, right?So that it's just kind of still there'sstill human beings who are living andworking in the same place and they aresexual beings and then they have arelationship and then itblows up one person like this.This is something that I talk about with myhusband a lot because there's sort ofthe pendulum swing so far the other waythat there's ramifications for one personand not for this other person, even if thisother person maybe, you know, maybeinitiated it, it's seen as an opportunityto get that guy out or something.It's just like a what?It's nice.Yeah, in some ways.I'm not saying it always is.I absolutely am not.But but I think I thinkI think even thoughit's a movement that ended, you know, maybe10 years ago or eight years ago,it still has a very strongprevalence in day to day working life in alot of these big industry jobs likeHollywood jobs, like financial jobs, likelawyers and doctors, because we see allthese doctors, you know, likethe gymnast doctors are start.It's all it's finally coming out.A lot of the people whohave used their power.Yeah, exactly.It's honestly a good thing.It really is.That power dynamic gottoo far out of control.Honestly, I bet it was always there.And this finally caughton, caught the attention.Hey, this isn't okay.So it's a good thing.But, you know, theweaponization of it's not a good thing.That's terrible.Yeah, that's what it is.When you now that the genie is out of thebottle and that power dynamic,the abuse of it, right?So the genie is out of the bottle.You better watch your assand just be a decent person.Or there are results.So does your book go into it?Like obviously it's in the90s, so it doesn't go into it.But do you dive intoconsent during that time?Yes, absolutely.Yeah.So there's basically the premise is thatthe main character is veryinexperienced, very naive, a very peoplepleasing type person.Like, you know, I was drawing on a lot ofmy own experiences for this.And then she ends up working with somebody.She has a crush on and hestarts flirting with her.So she thinks, you know, he likes her.And in this case, he would like wear likethe What Would Jesus Do bracelets?And he was a part of the Christian Clubon campus and he would playworship songs on his guitar.So she thought like he was a good guy andlike somebody safe to date.And then they get alone in the car and hepushes it further and further and further.And she liked him.And she but she's afraid to say no.And then that happens probably about athird of the way into the book or maybea quarter of the way into the book.And the rest of thebook is really unraveling.Like, you know, why did youthink you could do that with me?And like, I didn't even have the wordsbecause I had never been in any situationlike this before. And because she was sonaive, she didn't have any sort of birthcontrol. She wasn't she had neverexperimented with any of this before.And so then she ends up, youknow, finding out she's pregnant.And like then she she's like, my whole lifeis going to be blown up by this.And he's like, well, buteverybody will, you know,they will hate us if they know that youwent to Planned Parenthood.We can't do that.And but but it's not going to affect you.It's going to affect me.It's not. And so it's just a lot of thoseconversations are throughout the book andreally like hit hard on like,you can't do this to people.And so they like she and another girl whoshe works with at the pool both kind ofdealt with this guy the same way.And so they start to tell him like, likecall him things like a hit it and quit itasshole, like he's just in it to get laidand then he dumps you and like treatsgirls like slot machines and like and so alot of that is, you know,her figuring out her own self worth andthat her voice she should have used hervoice and finding out that her voicematters and and sort of getting back in hisface and and he learns from it.She learns from it.They all kind of likelearn from this experience.And so but it's with like that shame thatshe probably yes from it and thatprobably realizing it's not hers to carry.She shouldn't have the shame.And but what's so interesting is duringthat time that you've set the story in, noone was talking about anything that you'rewriting about. No, but that you got tothink about in the 90s,like with the Monica Lewinsky stuff.And so like I'm sort ofbut also like she liketo be a teenager at that time, you saw thatlike if you were the girl that it wasexposed, that you did this,your life will be blown up.You are a slut.You're a horrible evil person.And so she's like, I can't letanybody know that this happened.Yeah, they're all going to call me a slutand they're all going to shame me.Exactly. So or because of the joke.It's like late night comicswere making jokes about her.Yeah, like she made a joke of her.She was completely takingadvantage of let's be real.And it's a horrendous situation.But even in that moment andwe were what in our 20s, right?I didn't even realize how bad it was untilI got older because of the way societytreated it and treated herlike she was treated horrendous.Got off. Well, yeah.Yeah, he was boys being boys.To be honest with you, I'mreally proud of her and how she'shandled it all now as an adult.She's yeah,kudos to her podcast, right? She does.She does. And it'sabout taking back her power.And she attributes a lot ofthat to these younger generations,learning to speak up and to say, you can'tyou can't do this to me and embracing herand saying what was done to you is wrong.And her feeling like she finally has agroup of women who understands and iswilling to support her because all thewomen who are olderthan her all shamed her.Yeah, world shit on her.And she was 18, 19years old or she was young.She was very totally taken advantage of.The younger women are theones that are validating her.Yeah, I love that.That's the Gen Zers, right?She's millennial, I think.Yeah, no, that's awesome.That's why I know she'sshe's older than I am.I think I think she's actually like 48.Yeah, yeah. Because I was a teenager whenshe was an intern at that.I think she was in her in her 20s.OK, early 20s.So, yeah, she might be.Yeah.I was just about to ask if youknow how she matches up to your.I always still think of her as that age.I've received a very young kid.I mean, it's my age.But I love that.OK, maybe like the millennial women and theGen Zers are are validating herbecause she is so do that.But that's what I'm saying, like you'vetaken these modern concepts ofdiscussing this and validatingher experience, yourcharacter's experience.And but that's a modern concept from nowthat you now implemented into the settingof the 90s. Exactly.That was putting that lens on it is is partof building that bridgebetween our generation and this generation.Like it's not that different, even thoughwe didn't have the language for it.Then that's the beauty of fiction.Right. We can we can talk about it now in away that shows that without themhaving they don't really usethe word consent in the book.That's not that's right.They're addressing it.Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool.Now, is this your first book?It is. It was my dream way back when Itransferred collegesand was a writing major.It was my dream to publish a novel.And it just took a longtime to come back to me.It's amazing. And how hardwas it to get it published?You know, itit's an experience.It was not my favorite experience.And I I will say when you are an unknownperson out there with as many known peopleand as many books are gettingpublished, it's really like pulling teethto get anybody to even pay attention toyou. So the fact that it is published andon bookshelves and available through Barnesand Noble and local bookstores andin libraries and everythingis like a huge accomplishment.But as I understand it, I've just got tolike I got to get the next one out and theone after that, because that's when itstarts to really make a difference.You have to write.Yeah. Once you write it, how long?So I wrote those first ten thousand wordsin six weeks and then I I graduated inOctober of twenty twenty two by theby January of twenty twenty three.I had ninety seven thousand words.So I really just poured myself into it.And then I spent the next year untilJanuary of twenty twenty fourreally like going back and revising andhoning in on things and tiny tying upeverything, everything into what it is now.So that was a whole additional year.But that first that firstpass was really four months.Yeah. How long?How many pages is ten thousand words?Well, so a hundred thousandwords is about three hundred andseventy five to fourhundred pages around there.So it's about thirty five pages, I guesswould be ten thousand words.Yeah. That's amazing.Form pages.I mean, not just that you wrote it, butthat you got it published is like you said,that's a whole nother thing.That's a whole nother published author.You're a published author and my kidswatched me do it while they were in highschool and I was on the booster club of thebasketball team and I was helping withall the other thingswith my mom and her estate.They watched it happen in real time andthey saw what it means to prioritize mydreams and make them come true.And that is probably the biggest thingbecause for so long I was like,thank God for Taylor Swift because they cansee that this woman can make herdreams come true and she's a beautiful,smart woman to look up to.And now I'm like, actually, so am I.Like I can make my dreams come true.Yeah.Smart, talented person to look up to, too.Well, what are some things that you'veyou've worked on with your daughters orthings you've tried to say or be anexample so that they do grow up to be theseempowered young women who have avoice who havethat self confidence, that innate selfconfidence, self respect andknow to go after their dreams?Like, how did you approach because I haveone girl and that I mean,I devoted a significant amount of time justto try to make sure she left my housewith that because I didn't have that.So I'm like, I'm going togive you that before you leave.And it's been a beautiful thing to watch ithappen through her 20s that it'shappening, what I was hoping to.I mean, that's double that.So how how did you take that on?Well, we're still early in it at 16 and 18.But I think what I have really done thewhole time is I've I've tried tofind that happy balance where they knowthat they can come to me with anything.We can talk about anything.So I really try to be more curious thanjudgmental and anything they come to mewith so so that they know that I willhelp them by being alistener and giving them guidance.But it's their life tolive and make choices about.So even though I talk about, you know, thatI did all of the applicationprocess myself getting into college, well,so did my older daughter.I equipped her with toolsand I read through the essays,but I was not choosing whichcolleges she was applying to.I was not looking atdates that they were due.If you want to go to college,you've really got to own this.And we will. And so she was the one whodecided the oldest one like that she reallywanted to go to New York.And so she applied to like six colleges inNew York and she wrote the essays and gotthem all in on time and she chose which ofthose she decided she wanted to go to.And I think that's that's my husband'sand my approach with both of them is wewill be your greatest champions,but we will never be ahead of you on thepath that you're going down because it'syour path, your choosingwhich path you're going.And we're just there trying to equip youand help you and support you along the way.So he's a really greatpartner in all of that.I think his you know, his parents did areally good job raising him and everythingbecause he was so muchyounger than his siblings.He kind of was a little bit like an onlychild, but also as a third child,you know what they say, like the first, youknow, you treat with kid gloves.And then the third one, youlet them juggle knives. Right.So he was very much that like,yeah, you'll figure this out.Like, you'll get it.And and so he and I both kind of have thatattitude of like, I was capable.We believe you're capable, too.And that's kind of how wetreat everything with them.Like, if you want it,you'll make it happen.And we'll just be here cheering you on andsupporting you how we can.But we're not doing it for youbecause it's not my life to live.It's yours. Yeah.And that'll that'll that's perfect.It's honestly, Chef's Kiss.And that will work great for you guys asthey go into their 20sbecause that's a whole nother animal.But you'll find that with that attitude,they will still come to you for thatguidance and for that advice that they willbe living their life.But you'll still have that connection andit'll be in a healthy waybecause your role changes.But you guys have you completely have setthem up where not only are they going totake off, but you're still going to havethat connection with them.And it just sounds like youguys have done an amazing job.So especially considering you were doingthat, you did this through chaos.You know, like this started back in thatmove when they were little and theneverything that's been going on up untilnow and still going on.The fact that you were able to maintainthat way of raising them.It's just it's really amazing.20 years from now, they may be in therapyand talking about their trauma goingthrough all of this, but I think I thinkmaybe some of it, you know,it was also survival mode, right?Like, I can't do all of this for you.There's only so much I can do.So you've got to own what you are capableof owning right now becauseI've got too much on my plate.You know, I know him.And so I think some of itwas just out of necessity.But it really has madethem very independent andself-motivated peoplethat were so proud of.Yeah, like same thing when my friends arelike, how do you get your girls to gettheir license? I'm like, they went onlineand did the online classes themselves.And then they scheduled and I just tookthem to the DMV to get their permit.Like and then, you know, they said, mom,get me the driving lessons.OK, I get you the drive.And then they go do that.And then when they're ready, they say, OK,now I'm ready to take the test.You know, I just I just equip them becauseit's what they wanted to do.And so I think it was out of necessity.But it also ended up, thank God, likeworking out the way thathe's setting them up very well for success.I always say like the best thing you can dofor your kids is justshow them that you believe in them byhaving them do I believe in you enoughthat you can do this and when you doeverything for them, you're kind of saying,I don't believe in you thatyou can do this on your own.So I need to help you.So it's hard at first, but you're showingthem, I believe in you.You can do this.And it's kind of forcingthem to do certain things.But it's with that that belief you have inthem and they know it, you know,and they find that it's confidence, teambuilding, 100 percent.So what's what's some advice you would giveto women who are hittingtheir midlife and they have been grindingand they have been putting their dreamsand passions aside for whatever reason,family, marriage, friends, whatever job.And they're getting to this point andthey're looking around and they're saying,oh, my goodness, like they'refacing their mortality and theythey don't know who theyare and where do they start?I think what I've really come to is, youknow, fear, anxiety, stress.All of these experiences really force us todraw inward to protect ourselves.We really start to shut down and close offand just put your head down and justkeep pushing forward, right,because it is a self preservation.And by finding a creative outlet, that it'simpossible to be inward and creativebecause creative is an outward expression.It is it is absolutely meant to be shared.Any sort of creativity is meant to beshared in some sort of outward fashion.And so I for me, watercolor was the ticketto drawing me out of myself and havingmore of those joyful outward expressionsfor some people, maybe it's photographyor dance class or myhusband, I kid you not.He is the most talented spreadsheetdesigner and he can make a spreadsheetthat does anything just to prove me wrong,like he made a spreadsheet that solvesany pseudo puzzle becauseI would do pseudo puzzles.And he's like, well, I cansolve them faster than you.And the way he did it was by making aspreadsheet to do that.Right. And that's avery creative thing to do.So I really encourage anybodywho's feeling that sense of likeoverwhelmed, stressed or those those tidalwaves of grief and anxiety that just keephitting you over and over and over toreally find something creative, some sortof something creative that you can do for15 minutes a day, just 15 minutes.Really say to yourself, like,it has no deliverable toanyone else in the world.Those those firstwatercolors were not for anyone else.And I love the person that I learned from.She says it all over and over again.She's like, it's just a piece of paper.You can throw it away because the theproduct is not the purpose.The process is the purpose.Just sitting down and doing this creativething is the purpose.That's why you do it.So if if that is, you know, making littlerock statues whileyou're on a walk at the beachor something, whatever it is,give yourself 15 minutes a day.And I promise that when you really setthat time of a creative expression in yourday, you start to feed your souland start to pull out of those stress andsay, if I can get 15 minutes where I don'tfeel this way every day, maybe I can get 30minutes where I don't feel this way.Maybe I can get an hourwhere I don't feel this way.And you'll start to reallyput back into your prioritieshow to recenter your life in a way that youfeel that that calm againmore often, how to set those boundaries.I really am a big believer that it startswith that creative experience,whatever it is, whatever it needs to be foreach person, because you can'tyou can't sit there and andlook at a beautiful sunsetthat you're taking, that you're capturingwith a photograph or your painting oryour sketching and also be going, oh, mygosh, the laundry is piling up.Like it just you have to focus on thisthing for 15 minutes and it will help youto say that stuffdoesn't matter quite as much.My piece matters and itneeds to be prioritized.That's amazing advice, because as a result,you it's learning how to honoryourself and find yourself again.But I love that 15 minutes.It's it's such a small step and it's doableand it won't overwhelm someone.Just try that and see where it leads you.That's perfect. Yeah, that's perfect.Thank you. And you'resuch a great example of that.So now before I made all the difference,obviously, before I ask my last question,do you have any other questions?I do.Before I forget, I findthis to be very remarkable.Thank you.Just your insight into whoyou are is super impressive.So kudos to you.It's I'm just blownaway, to be honest with you.On a lighter note,that seemed to touch you.No, I appreciate it.I think we all need to hear more of that.So thank you for that.What's your what's your music?You guys, that was your jam, right?And so what? Yeah, I got my no doubt.I love it.What's my name?Gwen, Gwen Stefani.So we growing up in Southern California,the pop punk of Southern California,the no doubt Blink 182, Green Day, SocialDistortion, all of these bands were justpeppers, chili pepper, alittle bit of the peppers.Absolutely. Yes.And so all of those were big influences.But I did have the older siblings thatliked different kinds.My brother was super into Nirvana.So, of course, I love Nirvana and, youknow, Toad the wet sprocket.And and then, yeah, I had the, you know,the influence of the Prince and MichaelJackson and all of thatthat was a little older for me.But like it was all there.Now my husband and I arewe're House of Blues members.So we go to concerts all the time.We love connecting in our relationship thatway on a regular basis, but also withour kids. So we have, you know, like bucketlist kind of concerts that we liketo go to. So a big one that we did thissummer was we went to Red Rocks and we sawMumford and Sons at Red Rocks, which wasjust the perfect environment for thatmusic. Yeah.We also had been bigOasis fans back in the 90s.And so we just went two weeks ago to seeOasis at the Rose Bowl with our daughterand her best friend. We wewanted to take both of our girls.But our older one had alreadymoved to New York at that point.So, you know, you bought the tickets for afull year ago for tickets and then youfind out, well, sorry, you don't get to go.So, yeah, we we listened to all kinds ofmusic, but we really still he and I stillreally connect over thatpop punk that we loved.And that's why it plays such an importantpart in the book that I wrote is themgoing to shows and listening to that music,the Warped Tour going to the WarpedTour wearing Doc Martens and vans andConverse and rip shorts andhaving, you know, the pompadour hairstylewith the ponytail and just like whenStefani did. Yeah.I mean, all of those things were just a bigpart of our falling in love experiencethat we that's part of howwe keep the spark alive now.And we still are luckyto the in South Florida.Our music scene isn't great.It's like you can go to theHard Rock, which is a stadium.But you've got like the Hollywood Bowlthere, I think, right all over.Oh, there's tons of good somany venues, big and small.All of them. Yeah.That's very lucky.You're in the almost any day of the weekhere around, you could see live music.And in fact, we do leave in that's even ifwe're just going to a restaurant,we almost always choose to go to arestaurant where somebody is playing livemusic that we can listen to. And it'scovers of our favorite songs.You know, Van Morrison or TomPetty or whatever, you know.Yeah. Yeah.So we just we have we are very, very luckywhere we are located that we can do thatall the time. It'srelatable because we're dead heads.So we in college, wealways went to dead shows.But live music was a huge part of our life.We were friends in college.We weren't dating then.But we've continued to have live music.I call it our outlet.And it's our reconnection.When we're when we go to see live musictogether and our children, we involve them.They sometimes theycome, sometimes they don't.But we're a music family.If we're going to aconcert, we're buying five tickets.It's too damn expensive.That's like twenty four dollars.I know.It's like smaller venues are good.And now it's like, but but we have that.When because when you're there like that,you're right back to when you were young.Exactly.Time hasn't passed and, youknow, him and I could walk arounda concert now together and it's like we'retwenty two doing it again.And it's a great way to hold on to that.Like you said, that connection, that spark.But what's funny, it's also is a great wayfor our kids as they went through theirteen years to stay connected,say went to music festivals.So now our older two, they bonded asteenagers with music.So then they continue to go seelive music festivals together.And now they're going tobring in the younger one.So music also, my point is, is a hugeintegral part of our home and our family.And I think it's live music, especially.It's such a great way for people to stayconnected with their relationships,but also as a family withtheir children, you know.And it's like it is a creative experience,even if you're not the one creating themusic being there, itresonates through your whole body.It releases different kinds of happyendorphins to be present,to feel the ground literally moving underyour feet because of the bass and and tosee people around youfilled with joy dancing.I have a lot of friendswho are dead heads also,but it doesn't matter whatthe music is that moves you.When you're in a concertenvironment, you are a part of it.And you're a part of this whole communityof people that is a part of that music aswell. And it's it's a very communalexperience that I think is an outwardexpression of joy also.So it's just another way that we getcreative in our family.And it connects us again tothose things that really matter.That's a great point becauseyou do feel the vibe of it.You're all beating off everyone.And I dance my ass up and I alwaysfeel like I just went through what's itcalled somatic healing kind of afterbecause I've been so much like I feel likeit's like somatic healing.For me, it's my church, likethe Grateful Dead with my church.I'm not a religious guy.Now I'm on the Billy Strings.He comes to SoCal every now and then.But yeah, we're checking out.We're going to go see him at Huntsville.He got me into Billy Strings.He's like a bluegrass jam band.Oh, yeah.Yeah.He's the kid. He's whatin his early 30s, mid 30s.He just won bluegrass musician of the year.He's a performer of the year or something.Oh, wow.Bluegrass, though, in mymind, it's he does cover tunes.He'll do like Floyd, Bob Dylan.It's bluegrass.So in a couple of weeks, we're going toAlabama for three nightsso we're still making we're road trippers.We're big road trippers.We're still making ourtrips to go see shows.So it's awesome.Like my point is that I completely relateto what you're saying because I thinkit's just so important.It's cool that you guys do that.Actually, Oasis is the band.It's the British band that took time off.And so my buddy is a big Oasis fan.Him and his high school friends, they allflew over to, I think it wasScotland or the UK, maybe wherever theirfirst tour of the first night.Glastonbury, I think was the first one.Yeah.Yeah.They so their brothers, the Gallagher's,Lee Gallagher, and they have a verycontentious relationship.And so they they actually fell out ofcontact with the other.And when they broke upbecause they fought all the time.And when they wanted to do this tour,whoever they worked with to set upthe tour was really, really smart becausethey had broken up so many times andsometimes right on stage.In fact, one concert that my husband and Iwent to 20 more years ago,they were supposed to be one of theheadline bands and they broke up that dayand didn't play because they so they usedto break up all the time.So whoever set up this tour was reallysmart because they said the only way youmake a penny off of this tour is if youfinish the entire tour, youhave to finish the whole thing.And so they can't breakup until this tour is done.So it's like I think they I'm not sure.Something like 14 or 20shows is what they agreed to.And that's all anybody really expects themto do because they probably will break up.They really have thatcontentious of a relationship.Wow.But it's been so huge.Everybody.I don't personallylove those kinds of shows.The Rose Bowl had over 80,000 people at it.And that is just wow.That is like a veryoverwhelming experience for me to be.But that kind of energy with the numberof people who wanted to see them, who lovedthem back in the day, it was like,we need to be right back there with you.That was amazing.And I'm glad we went.It's a bucket list, like I said.But I don't know.I definitely prefer like the Lumineers atthe Hollywood Bowlwhere it's like, you know,25,000 people outside with the stars above.And it's just a different kind of thing.Have we ever seenanyone with 80,000 people?I mean, I was the Dead shows at GiantStadium were pretty big.Bruce Springsteen when we saw him.Yeah, I see him holds 80,000.And that was that was a lot.That was our son's first concert.He was fine.Even the Chili Peppersin Miami was not 80,000.But it was.Yeah.Stadium shows.80,000. No, that is that's a lot of energy.Well, the Rose Bowl is more.It's a bowl, but it's a long gated bowl.So it's yes.You're pretty if you're at the other endof the stage, you'repretty far away, I would assume.Yeah.So we my husband got us pretty good seats.So we had we had a really good view.He had he got the tickets and he tookthe girls to see Taylor Swiftduring the Airs Tour at SoFi.And SoFi is another likehundred thousand stadium.And I was like, I just really do not wantto be around that many people.Like I just I would really rather avoid it.So I didn't go to that one actually,because you didn't go.Oh, you could have gone, but you didn't go.Oh, I was like, let thisbe a father daughter thing.There were so many fatherdaughter groups that went though.And I loved that they had that, you know,that's a memory that they will always havethat their dad and he loves Taylor Swift.He actually does.He said, I saw a lotof that on social media.It was adorable.And I think some of theAirs Tour was filmed at SoFi.Right. I was.I think almost all of it.I think most of it.There was a girl that went to our highschool who is in the in the no way.Oh, my God. That's so cool.That is so cool.I always thought that I would want to go toa show at Madison Square Garden.And it would take a very special band forme to do something like that again.Oasis was worth it experience.But, yeah, anything more than 20,000.And if I have a choice, I will go 2000 orless venue like the House of Blues showsare smaller shows, much smaller shows.And we have seats.I get to your mid 40s.You want to see.And you don't want to be.Garden.Well, yeah, no, we've seen the dead at thegarden, but we didn't know.But now I'm all about seats.I don't go anywhere unless I have a seat.But I'm not a thing.Christian is not my thing.So, OK, do you have any more questions?Are you good?And I think you're Ithink you're remarkable.Congratulations on figuring shit out.Yeah, yeah.It's a great way to start.I'll be in the best weekend.No, I love the fact you've reclaimedyourself and set up boundaries.And, you know, it's it's awesome.The timing is great because you're going toapproach a twilight and,you know, you kind of got tofigure out how to the game.So, you know, because a lot of us are thisis worth discovering this.We turn 50.So you're a little your head.So it's it's awesome.What was weirding me out?I'm good now.But is your Gen X but you you're.Eight years younger thanus, I think that's weird.That's like I don't know.It's just weird.It's like you have theseexperiences, your Gen Xand but you're on that tail end.So, you know, the fact that you hadEthernet in college,that wasn't a thing for us.Yeah, we're still in that same generation.Such a wide range.And that's what I mean.It's wild during those years that we,those of us that are in different pocketsof it do have such differentdifferences, even thoughwe're all the same generation.Yeah, it's cool.It's very I love it.Okay.So my last question is always, where do yousee yourself in five years?I hope in five years I'm doing a lot moretraveling because I will have bothkids out of the house and there will bemore time for that less day to daycommitment. I definitely hope I will have Iwould like to have written at least onemore, if not two more books by then.I'm starting my next one inspired in partby my mom's romance scammer.And like, so just kind of like, but I thinkit might it might have a dualtimeline sort of thinghappening a little bit.But and I, yeah, I really I would like tosay that I'm even further down the road ofsetting those boundaries as my kids areadults and and living their adults life.My youngest will be close to the end ofcollege at that point and just reallylike enjoying the, you know, the blessingof having adult children that hopefullywill have spread their wings wide and I cantouch base with them on a regularbasis, but have my own life going with withwriting and traveling.And yeah, that's that's what I have.Yeah, absolutely lovely.Absolutely lovely.And I think you and your husband canalready see it are going to have such anamazing transition intoparenting adult children.And I think you're going to love that.I can tell you it's awesome.We love it. It's cool.It's so cool.And you can't describe it tosomeone until you go through it.But just the way you've tackled raisingthem, you guys, when they say you get toreap your rewards or whatever, the time youput in, you're going to really be like,OK, now this is awesome.This is when we reallyget to enjoy all that.Everything we put in,you finally are reallygetting it all back whenthey're adult children.And so I'm excited for you guys becausethat's like a wholeother aspect of your future.So, you know, so it's going to be awesome.And I can't wait towatch out for more books.No, but these aren't sequels, right?It's going to be now.As of right now, I'm not planning a sequel.I have had people ask it.I think it would be fun to follow along.That's the next couple of years in the 90sand her college experience or whatever.But right now, that's not where myinspiration is taking me.I'm really I'm more reallydiving into the psyche of somebodywho would choose to be a scammer,basically, to make money off of that.And also the psyche of somebody who's sobroken that they're so susceptible towhat the rest of the world sees isobviously a scam, you know,and to really dive intothose personalities andkind of play in that world a little bitlike that predator victim type of duality.So what I do have one.Well, no, no, this is more more business.OK, how do people buy your book?So Barnes and Noble, I assume Amazon.Yeah, it's it's in all the places you canbuy books or get books on Libby andKobo, Kobo and all those things.I'm a big advocate for every main street inAmerica, having a libraryand a privately owned businessbookstore like a local store.So you can absolutely just go and requestit at your library or request it at yourlocal bookstore and they will order it foryou if it's not there.And that supports them and supports me.So I encourage people.It does touch on some tricky subjects.And I know that a lot of states in ourcountry are kind of pushingsome censorship with books.And I say, please goget it at your library.Go get it because we need more of thesebooks out there that cover these topicsbecause they're really important.And too many of them aregetting pulled off of shelves.So let's just keep puttingmore of them on the shelves.Let's let people really understand theworld that they live in and the experiencesthat people around them are having. Yeah.Or you can always just go to my website.It's also on my website,Jamie Townsend dot com.And if you if you happen to order it there,you can get a signed copy sent to you.I don't know.And every any any way you can get in touchwith Jamie is going to be in the notes ofthe description. So every link, anything.And listeners, if you have any questionsthat you have for Jamie,please leave them.We will make sure that she sees them.And again, any way to get intouch with her to buy her book.What about the watercolors?Is that on my website?Well, if you want to look atit, check out her watercolors.Again, we can't thank you enough forsharing, honestly, your journey,your story, your wisdom and yourinspiration, your creative inspiration,which I think is something peopledesperately need now more than ever.And especially as you suggested as a guideto lead them on their newpath, their new journey.It's such a great tool that's overlooked.So thank you for sharing that.I know there's going to be a lot oflisteners that will be able to relate tothat or never have even thought of usingthat as a tool before.And it could change thewhole trajectory of their life.So we really appreciate you sharing yourinsight into that and for coming on.And we hope to maybe have you back whenyour next book is published.If you would like to come back and talkabout your next book.I would love that.Thank you so much toboth of you for having me.I've loved our conversation.I really appreciate whatyou're doing with this show.And it's just been apleasure to to share this.And I do hope that, yes, to have anotherconversation and a short time when thenext book is coming out. Absolutely.The doors you have arecurring guest spot here.Whenever you want to come on and talk aboutyour next project, you're welcome.You just let us know.And again, any listeners,please leave any questions, comments.And we will make sure that Jamie sees them.Or if you have them forBrian and I, we will get.