Episode 32 - Attachment Styles and Relationship Dynamics Artwork

GenX Adulting Podcast

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GenX Adulting Podcast

Episode 32 - Attachment Styles and Relationship Dynamics

May 13, 2025 • Brian & Nicole • Season 1 • Episode 32

In this episode, Brian and Nicole discuss attachment styles and relationship dynamics. Styles discussed include anxious, dismissive avoidant, fearful avoidant and secure attachment styles. They share their own attachment styles they’ve had throughout their life and relationships. They touch on how various characteristics of avoidant attachment can be highly damaging to a relationship and partner, as well as how anxious attachment can be very triggering and intense. They cover the emotional development of GenX men, women and the generation as a whole, and how it has possibly not only affected marriage and relationships for GenX, but contributed to the rise in divorce for them as well. Nicole once again raises the topic of perimenopause and menopause, and shares the importance of having a partner that will evolve with a woman through this phase of her life. We reflect on the fate of GenX and how recognizing your own attachment style as well as your partner’s can play a vital role. We really enjoyed delving into these topics and may revisit them in a future episode!

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[Music]Welcome to GenX Adulting and today we aretalking about attachment styles.There are four attachment styles.There's anxious attachment.There is avoidant, whichsometimes is called dismissive.There is fearful avoidant, which issometimes called disorganized.And there is secure attachment.And your attachment style starts offbased on it's rooted inyour childhood and yourexperiences with your caregivers.And it's not necessarily anything yourcaregivers did intentionally.It can be, obviously, if there is abuseinvolved or neglect.But it also definitely can result fromthings that yourcaregivers did not do on purposeor with intent.So you kind of start off with a certainattachment style, but thatattachment style can changebased on differentexperiences through your life.So you could be shifted to a totallydifferent attachment stylebased on if a trauma happensin your life or ifhealing happens in your life.If you go on a healing journey, you cancompletely adjust and pivot yourattachment style dependingon what happens in your life.So I think we're going to do a briefoverview of the four attachment styles.Just to be clear, we are not experts.We are not doctors.We are not therapists.This is just us having a generaldiscussion about it.And then we are going to share ourpersonal thoughts on ourown attachment styles andpossibly even delve into how thoseattachment styles haveaffected our marriage over thelast almost 31 years.While we're discussing the generaloverview, we may put upsome graphics on the screenfor those watching on YouTube.You'll be able to see those.But should we startwith anxious attachment?Yeah, we could.There's a really cool resource out therecalled the attachmentproject.com.Worth checking out.It's very interesting.Yeah.Those would probably be some of thegraphics we put up just to...It's all about going from childhood allthe way through adulthoodand in a very interestinghistory on the guy who started that.Right.Go ahead.So for anxious attachment, anxiousattached people crave closeness.They crave intimacy.They have a strong fear of abandonment.They think...This is all in general, but they thinkless of themselves andmore highly of others.So their self-worth is lower than howthey see other people.They're always afraid that their partnermay leave therelationship or that their partner'sfeelings are not as strong as theirs.I think that they have issues withtrusting and that apartner is going to stay.And that ties back tothat fear of abandonment.Yeah.And then just the negative self-view.These seem to be anexternal locus of control as well.What I was reading is that they tend tobe the pursuers of relationships.Okay.So they're anxiousabout the relationship.They're pursuing making sure everything'sgood, possiblyovercompensating those kindsof things.Yeah.I think that they're highly codependentin a relationship andthey are hyper aware oftheir partner's feelings and how theirpartner feels to thedetriment of their own feelingsand their own experience.One of the bullet points here is theyelevate their partner above themselves.Right.Yeah.I mean, you could almost say, I'm surethere's times with anxious,attached people that they'remartyrs.Potentially. You know, and maybe they, I don't know,but maybe they think thatthey will find and securesomeone if they just constantly put thatperson up on a pedestal,that person will want tostay with them and never leave them.And as long as they don't do anythingwrong, like, and theymay view demanding and notdemanding, but setting a standard forthemselves that they requirea certain level of respect.They may view that as if I demand thatfrom my partner,they're going to leave me.So I'm going to make things as easy formy partner as possibleso that I'm going to putno demands on my partner because I don'twant them to leave me.Because I think with anxious attachment,it really always isrooted in fear of abandonment.Yeah, probably.So is that kind of whatyou found in your research?Is that is that line up?I guess.Yeah.Worries about beingdisappointed or abandoned.Yeah.Yeah.They're the one pursuingmaking sure everything's okay.You know, you're losing the relationship.Yeah, they're probably, I would thinkpeople pleasers big time.So so then if we switch to avoidant ordismissive attachment, sothey have have very littleinterest in intimacy or closeness.They view themselves higher than others.So they're the opposite of an anxious.Their self worth is higherthan how they see other people.They, they're uncomfortable with, withcloseness and intimacy.They do not like conflict.And when conflictarises, they tend to shut down.Hence avoid the situation or anything.It's a deep emotional situation, whichobviously conflict is they hate conflict.They have difficulty.They prefer independence and havedifficulty with trust.And I think that ties into the intimacyand closeness becauseyou have to have trust inorder to be close with someone.So this is an interesting one.One of the bullet points here is viewsdependence as a sign ofweakness, not the skip aheador get, but we've seen some of that insome of the commentaryfrom the men that get thatlight up some of the things,you know, yeah, absolutely.They're super independent,especially on an emotional level.Like they, they, they're ahard nut to crack emotionally.Yeah.They do not share their emotions easily.Yeah.They do not want to depend on others.And they also don't wantothers to depend on them.So they don't do well in acodependent relationship.They also do not look to outside sourcesfor approval or support.And that ties back to they have a highself worth, but thatcould be a detriment too,because you, if you don't really havedecent self-awarenessand if your ego is so, so,so high that you're with a, with anavoidant and their self worth is so high.And then we get into narcissism.That's a totally different topic.You could be living in a completelydisconnected relationship,a disconnected life becauseyou're totallyself-sufficient in everything.So you're never reallyconnecting to anyone.Yeah.Like they avoid connection.Yeah.If that makes sense.Yeah.And I think that's everything.And then, um, well, there's one otherbullet point on thisthing I'm looking at is theychallenge diverse perspectives.Okay.Which is kind of interesting.They don't necessarilywant input from others.Okay.In this, you know, the,the psycho analysis of it.So they don't, um, they, it's like theirway and they don'twant to hear it criticism.Potentially.Or any input.But that could be go along with they wantto avoid conflict ordebate or having to openthemselves up.It's almost like, I don't really carewhat other perspectives are.I've got this figured out.I've got my ball, my box andwalls around me type of thing.But that's kind of avoided.Yeah.So it's like, I wonder howavoidance, um, are at work.Like if they're in charge of people or ifthey're not in chargeof people and need tobe trained or guided howthey handle that input.Well, I, you know, we're kind of skippingahead because I thinkall these things operateon a spectrum.Yeah.But I have a feeling in the technicalworld, uh, avoidanceprobably are the predominantscrew.Yeah.So we'll, we'll touch on that as we're,cause right now, again,we're doing the generaloverview.Yeah.So then there's the fearful avoidant.Uh, they can also be called thedisorganized avoidment avoidant.They're a mix of the two.I feel, I think thefearful of wean it is chaotic.Well, actually the first two bulletpoints here arenegative, insecure view of self,negative, insecure view of others.Right.What's yeah.They have it.They do have a history of trauma or.And avoids closeness.Yes.Longs for love and rejects intimacy.Right.Yeah.Okay.So, and that could be that push-pulltendency people do in relationships.That disorganized.That disorganized.The disorganized or fearful avoidantThe disorganized or fearful avoidantcould definitely do thepush, push pull in a relationshippush-pull in a relationship where theywhere they give you a bunch of love orthey love bomb you a bit.bomb you a bit, but then when you reactBut then when you react to that, whentheir partner reacts tothat, they pull away andthey become distant.And so it's a game of, I'm going to pushAnd so it's a game of, I'm going to pushyou away and I'm going to pull you back.And I wonder if the fearful avoidant, ifthat's their style,because they want the love, butlove, but then when they, their partnerthen when they, their partner comestowards them for more intimacy, theyreject that intimacy.So being in a relationship with a fearfulavoidant or adisorganized avoidant has gotto be completely chaotic.got to be completely chaotic and, um, youAnd you never, you, there's no trust.You could never trust wherethat person is coming from.Depending on each day, you could be withDepending on each day, you could be within a different situationwith your relationship.relationship.Cause how could you trust what, what, howthey're going to act each day?Yeah.You know, and that can just be, and thatcan go on and on and on and draw out.Yeah.You know, I'm looking into it.This could be, I have these tenants, someof these tendencies.Oh, well, we're going to get to that.I hadn't thought of it that way, but I'mlooking at this and I flipped to thisother info graphic I have.And I'm like, whoa.Yeah.Yeah.No, we're going to get to our personalattachment styles in a minute.Um, they have difficulty forming stableattachments and this is the fearfuldisorganized avoidant.Um, and again, they may have bothavoidant and anxious tendencies.Um, so the partner and relationship areboth, okay, this is interesting of thefearful disorganized and avoidant.Their partner and the relationshiprepresents both theirdesire and their fear.Yeah.So coming from the disorganized fearfulavoidant, it's being with someone is thatperson is theirdesire, but also their fear.So you're never, you'renever committing to anything.You're just constantly in,in fluid motion with this.It's there's never any stability.There's no stability.It's completely unstable.So yeah, it is.Um, they want closeness and intimacy, butthey have trust issues.So that one sounds fun.I don't, I mean,yeah, this is interesting.Yeah.Some of these things definitely I canrelate to or identify with, but othersdefinitely not any inthat particular box.Yeah.Okay.But we're not getting to that yet.Okay.Um, cause we'll get tonarcissism another time.Okay.So then there's secure attachment andthey are just doing awesome.They are comfortable with intimacy.They don't have trust issues.Um, they have no problem with conflict.They have no problem withemotions, um, with commitments.They're, they're just great.You know, they're, they canmanage their own emotions.Um, you know, they can depend on theirpartners and have no problem with theirpartners depending on them.And, um, they can either, they can thrivein a relationship orthey can thrive alone.So they don't need a relationship or, butthen when they have one, they do great.Yeah.So they're just secure attached people.They have a positive view of themselvesand they have a positive view of others.So they just are doing great in life andin their relationships.And, um, they, like I said, they canregulate their emotions and, and they canhelp their partnerregulate their emotions.So they can regulate their own emotionsand they can help theirpartner regulate their emotions.So I think, and they, and from what Iresearched, that's the smallestpercentage of people securely attached.And that makes sensebecause you think about it, right?You're looking at Gen X and millennials,which were raised by boomers.Um, so I don't know how Gen Z's come in.Gen Z's raised by Gen X.I would be curious how many Gen Z's ifthey're going to raise the percentage ofsecure attachment statistics.Because Gen X in general, in general hasput so much time and effort into.Parenting their children, being present,giving them the childhood that theyalways wanted, being, being the personthat they needed when they were children.Kind of being helicopter parents or fullybeing helicopter parents.But because of the way Gen X raised GenZ, I will be really curious to see if GenZ comes out as more securely attached intheir relationships.I don't know, but it makes sense thatthey're the lowest percentage right nowin what's been studied because they'reprobably studying Gen X and millennialpeople more than theyoung group, you know?So, and if you think about where we camefrom and how it all starts in yourchildhood, that makes sense.So, so that's the general overview.And like you said, it's a spectrum.Yeah.Um, and it ebbs and flows depending onwhat's going on in your life.So now we'll get personal.And I'll start with myself.Um, I think I 100%, 100% spent at leastthe first 30 years of my life as ananxiously attached person.I think that when I, um, I had a hugefear of abandonment, I feel like I did.And I'm, I'm going to get in trouble for,um, cutting you off, but I don't thinkwhen you look at this, these, these, youknow, infographics, I don't think youfall into that category as a parent.No, no, no.This is the interesting, but 30 yearsyou've been a parent forlonger than, well, right.Yeah.We had kids before 30 years.I was 26.Yeah.And I don't, I don't think, and if youthink about your own background, right?You can, and I want to take it in adifferent direction,but you probably healed.You've talked about it.You healed once you had your heart,Nathan, our first, right?Isn't that probably cured some of thatanxious attachment you felt you had?Because one of the signs of an anxiouslyattached parent style would be parentstend to over-involved the child in theirown feelings and emotional needs.These parents usually worry about theircaregiving performance,which may be lead to frustration.Um, and high expectations can causeconflict with the child.That's not happening.No, not at all, but the secure parentingcapable of regulating their emotions.They create compassionate environment fortheir child and they view their child asa separate person, but they alsoempathize and withhis or her experiences.That sums up yourparenting style extremely well.Yeah.Okay.So that makes sense.Yeah.So, you know, I wonder if you can besecure, if you can ebb into like how Isaid it changes throughout your life.So I transitioned into, I do, I was goingto say then I believe I transitioned intosecurely attached, but that was based onlife experience, notchildhood, obviously.So yeah, I had Nathan at 26 because I wasstill anxiously attachedwhen we got married at 23.I was still struggling.I was struggling with trusting that themarriage was going to last.I still thought at anypoint you could leave.Yep.Um, and I honestly, and I've said thisbefore, so that's why I said till 30, Iprobably didn't fully trust that youweren't going to leave for the first,till we hit our 10 year mark.I think it took me 10 years of ourmarriage before I truly in my bones waslike, okay, so we're doing this.Yeah.Right.Well, I think you're not leaving.You know, it's funny to say that that'ssort of the genesis of our name.Gen X adulting is all of asudden we're fucking adults.Yeah.Right.So it's like life's happening whileyou're busy making other plans.And to your point, it'slike, right there goes 10 years.It might've been longer.Might've been less.No, I, I, no, I kind of remember when ithappened, you know, I was like, I just,it was around the time my dad died.Um, so, and that it wasn't connected.I just remember around that time is whenI'm shortly at probably within a yearafter that is when I realized, okay, soyou aren't going anywhere.Like you're in this type of thing.So, um, and, and not that marriage iseasy, not that ourmarriage has always been easy.We've gone through ups and downstogether, but I think it took those 10years because I was coming from suchtrauma, such an unstablebackground, such abandonment issues.Like every boyfriend I had, I didn't havea lot of boyfriends.I had long-term boyfriends.So I had my high school boyfriend, I hadmy college boyfriend.And so, but I had huge abandonment issuesin those relationships.You know, I feel bad for those guys.Even though, you know, I love them verymuch and we had a lot of fun together,but they also had to dealwith my abandonment issues.And so as a teenagerand then you did right.And so, um, but what's interesting, so Ithink as I ebbed into secure attachmentas a parent, so I became a securelyattached person when I became a motherbecause that's who my children needed.And I was not going toproject my issues onto my children.I was determined not to do that.And I think that's very Gen X.I think that's very Gen X.We're very conscious and self-aware.Try to stop the cycle.Yeah.Try to break that cycle.Yeah.So I think I became securely attached asa parent, but I think it took me longerin our marriage and our relationship forme to transition to asecurely attached partner.If that makes sense.I was almost writing two differentattachment styles through my twenties andto my early thirties.And then I think they blended into, they,they solidified into secureattachment in my thirties.I don't know if that makes sense.No, it does.And that's where, you know, when I saythis is on a spectrum, when I'm readingthrough some of this stuff and I've, andI've read through it for the couple ofdays now and we've been going to, we'regoing to talk about this.I've looked into this andit's been thinking about it.The spectrum is not only over time fromwhen you're a child to when you're say inyour teens, your early adulthood, yourearly midlife thirties, whatever.It changes over time.Yeah.But what's fascinating, and I'm curiousif you can relate to this, is it changestoo by the relationship.So you're absolutelysecurely attached to your kids.I would say you're probably securelyattached to be at this point.Yes.You're probably securelyattached to your mom at this point.But then if you think about otherrelationships, they fall, I bet some ofthem fall on different slides here asdifferent parts of the spectrum.Yes.Right.So that's the fascinating thing that I'mfinding here is that, because I wasthinking going in, I'm an avoidant, but Icame from a securelyattached environment.So it's got me thinking, okay, when did Iget kind of screwed up here?Because I was secure.Now I'm tend to be avoidant.Okay.So, yeah, going into you.I'm not taking it to me quite yet, butI'm giving you an example to maybereflect back on, because with our kids,I'm definitely in the secure space.But there's also some avoidant where Idon't totally honor all oftheir emotions and feelings.Right.But at the same time I do, but I'm not asquick to do it as you.So it's fascinating to me that this is a,this is, and this is psychology, right?Yes.That's where this stuff comes from.Psychologists wrote up these differentbuckets to describe behavior and it'snever a perfect science, right?It's a social science and it's not awhack or criticism of psychology.It's you're dealing with the mind andemotions and behaviors.But I give you, I'mgoing to turn it back to you.I was just kind of giving you thatframework that I've been mulling on asfar as how you, itapplies to different things.It applies todifferent areas of your life.It applies to different relationships.Yeah.It can apply to, absolutely.I would say that at least coming fromsomeone who was anxiously attachedbecause of childhood, probably the peoplethat were in mychildhood, I only am secure.I'm not really attached with the onesthat I, um, unpack trauma with.So like my mom and I have gone through alot of work together.My mom has been incredibly gracious inallowing me to heal my childhood traumathat she was involved insome of it, not intentionally.My mom's entire desire was just to try togive me a normal childhood.All right.Yep.But, um, so she, I know it's pain waspainful for her to rehash things and tohave to hear things that happened to meor how I felt about things at the time.Very painful.And especially I'm a mother, I can onlyimagine, but she gave me that space.She gave me the space to listen to what Ineeded to unpack so that I could heal asmuch as it probably hurt her at the timeto have to go through it again or to evenlearn certain thingsshe didn't know happened.But as a result of her giving me thatspace, I was able to then be completelyhealed and securelyattached to one of the main care.Like the main caregiver of my childhood,not that I wasn't securely attached toher, my childhood, I never doubted mymom's love or commitment, but it wasmore, I guess more of an authentic secureattachment, an authentic secureattachment, not a secure attachmentbecause, oh my God, Ihave to hold on to you.You're the only stable thing in mychildhood, but just coming from a verypositive secure attachment, the secureattachment changed from survival to anauthentic positive secure attachment.And as a result, we have areally great relationship.She lives with us.The only way that could happen is if wehad gone through, if I was able to gothrough this where it's an enjoyableliving experience, right?Cause there's a lot of, there's a lot ofGen Xers who are now faced with having tocare for their elderly parents and theyhave not impact their trauma from thoseparents or from their childhood.And some of those parents were eitherneglectful or abusive, mentally,emotionally, physically, whatever, orunintentionally caused trauma.And these people, these Gen Xers have nothad a chance to resolve any of that andare now being forced to care for thesepeople and their parents.And so a lot of times it rehashes allthis trauma for them, but they can't doanything with it because the parentsaren't at the pointanymore where it can be resolved.Or the parents wouldn't, won't createthat space for them.So that's a tough one because a lot ofGen Xers are going through wanting toresolve past trauma, but at the same timeare being forced to care for the, theirabusers or the people thatunintentionally caused that trauma.Yeah.Does that make sense?Yeah.No, what I was thinking about for your,even for your own self, you look at myupbringing and yourupbringing, and we've talked about that.I was stable, two parents, two and a halfdogs, whatever, you know, allthat you're all you're moving.You've got your lifewas quote unquote crazy.I have to all blank this.I was kind of fucked upcompared to mine, right?Yeah.But your mom was the one consistent.Yes.And she always provided you with love andalways you, you may, you know, youprobably doubted some of her decisionmaking and actions she took, but at theend of the day, you knew she loved you.And that's evolved into your adulthood.I do think that's probably why you'reable to be a securely attached mom thatprobably maybe, maybe not.I don't know.Yeah, but it's probably, you know, it'shelped you at least do better, right?You want to be better, right?And you're smart enough and you've doneenough self introspection to say, I wantto be better, but I, I'm,I don't want to go too far.I want to make my entire, my, I'm not, mykids are not my healing vessel.Right.Right.So, so I think that's good.I, but I think your mom provided a crazyupbringing, but it over time, it becamesecure, like you described, but alsopartly because you guyswere able to talk through it.She was on the podcast.We had some sensitive topics that wereprobably, you know, rehashing some oldwounds for both of you guys.Um, but what I find interesting aboutthis is, and this is what I mean aboutthe spectrum of fluidity of all of this.Every, with everything I just said, thereare still times where she triggers youand you go back to some, oneof these other boxes, right?You're leaving that secure box and you'regoing into the something.Yes.I don't know whether it's disorganized orwhatever it might be.Yeah.It's just a, that's whyI find this fascinating.This, this topic fascinating.And it doesn't happen a lot and it'scompletely unintentional on her part.Um, yeah.And when I'm sure when I'm startling foryou, when I'm triggered, um, it'scompletely unintentional on, on, on herpart, but it's, yeah, it's, it's almostlike you're humming along and thensomething happens and it brings you rightback to that emotion.You were feeling at that time, thatchaos, like the gut punch.Yeah.And you're like, now I actually,thankfully in general, Ifind humor in a lot of that now.I am able to laugh about it, but thereare times where I'm like, oh my God, youknow, and I have to have my moment, butit's still, it's really my moment.It doesn't really evenhave anything to do with her.It's just a, she, heraction triggered it.But again, it's just a trigger.It's a trigger, right?But it's really still, it's justbringing, it triggers thatunreason and it's resolved.That's the thing, but even resolved crapcan still show itself.Oh yeah.And that's what catches you off guard.If you're someone that comes fromchildhood trauma or abuse and, um, whichI guess that's redundant, but allchildhood trauma doesnot mean abuse is present.Um, and you've unpacked and you'veresolved and you found closure withwhoever you need to find closure with.Um, and then something happens thattriggers you and brings you right back.It's startling because you really arefunctioning as a securely attachedperson, as a healed person, um, as a highfunctioning, you know,person you're doing well.And then it brings you back so hard thatit reminds you how you stood on no groundand how chaotic you were inside the chaosthat was inside of you.And, um, how reactionary you were tothings and how much pain you were in.It brings you back like a light switchand that can be startling to your nervoussystem when you've beenliving in a healthy way.Um, and you got yourself out of fight orflight and then thattrigger triggers you right.You're nervous system right back in andyou're like, Oh my God.There's one time when that has happenedto me and it's, it's,it's not just like, okay.So we did mention my, my mom, like therewas like maybe at different times that'shappened, but, um, there's other peoplein my life that also do that.And when that happens, it's like, you'reit's, it's, it's a shock to the systemand it makes you realize though, thepositive of that is it really makes yourealize how far you'vecome and how healed you are.And, um, you're noteven that person anymore.And it actually, I alwaysfeel bad for that person.I always kind of, I immediately have someempathy and I'm like, wow.That's how that person felt.That part of that person, I was felt likethat 24 hours a day, seven days a weekwith no break and howmuch pain I was sustaining.It just, but this allhappens in like 30 seconds.Yeah.It can all, all that stuff, everything Ijust said, you couldfeel it all in 30 seconds.Yeah.Like a flash in the pain.Yeah.It's a shock to the system.So, but, um, to goback to securely touch.So yeah, like with my mom, I'm completelysecurely attachedwith you, with the kids.Um, but there's relatives from mychildhood that I have, there, there arethings not resolved.And so I, I'm definitely notanxiously attached to them.I might be avoidant.I'm not attached to them at all.I'm gonna, uh, I'll open back up my thinghere because there's, there's.Got to be an ambivalence.Where does ambivalence fall into this?I see it because itwould seem like avoidant.Yeah.It would seem like avoidant.I probably go into avoidant when it comesto certain people in my life.Um, I don't know.I don't know if it'seven an attachment style.If it's just, I didn't see it jump up.That's why I'm going back real quick.These are great bullet points.I do.I don't see a, anambivalence section here.I feel like avoidant is kind of a synonymto that a little bit.Somewhat.Yeah.I will say this, there are some peoplestill in my life that have at timestriggered my anxious attachment.And I'm going to be honest, it's reallybeen until this year where I have madethe conscious decision where I reallyrealized, wow, I'm being anxiouslyattached about this and I made theconscious decision to stop.I'm like, these people don'tdeserve my anxious attachment.What am I doing?And it's, it's almost like they trigger,um, feelings that people, mychildhood triggered in me.And when you're an anxiously attachedchild, you're constantly trying to getapproval from the people in your lifethat won't give you the approval there.Because that's what's causing the traumain the childhood, right?So you're just constantlytrying to please love me.Please accept me.Please choose me.Please make me a priority.Um, please approve.And so I realized this year, there's somepeople in my life that have triggeredthat and I've, I've spent a lot of mylife trying to be an anxiously attached,trying to, you know, allthose things, please accept me.Please love me.Please, uh, you know, choose me.Please make me a priority.And this year I was like, I don't know,just slap me in the face.Like what?So even if you unpack, even if you haveself-awareness and I'm not, you'realways, it's always work, you're always awork, especially if you come from abackground like mine,you're always working.But even if you were, if you really areon top of the world and you're like,you know, I'm, I'm doing great.Like you don't even think about itbecause you're functioning so well, butthere you'll still findthose skeletons in your closet.You still have to acknowledge them.I'm still unpacking trauma because I'm,when I say recently, it's probablyin the last six months, I was like, Oh myGod, I'm anxiously attached about this.Stop that.Yeah.Stop that.Even if I have to go toavoidant about these people.Yeah.What do you, what do you think is, um,that's the level of consciousness thatallows you to recognize that, right?Acknowledge, recognize that I've got thisunhealthy behavior with this thing.Thing it can be, it can be a, probably athing, a person, whatever.Right.What do you think what's happened there?Because there's been things done or saidthat triggered me into feelingexactly the same way I did when I was achild and I finally correlated it.But that's what I mean.How, what, how does youcome to that correlation?Would you say, or that understanding isit just, we're getting old and maturingand there's some geneticthing happening with us or.I just kept questioning myself.Why, what is this?Why do you care?And I kept trying toget to the root of it.Why do you care?Cause these people have no, they shouldhave no, this, not this much controlover how you're feeling.Why do you care?And then I just, I just thought about itand thought about it.And I finally was like, Oh my God, thisis how I always felt with these otherpeople that were in my childhood.It's the same thing.And there's the people in my childhoodthat made me feel this way have verysimilar characteristics to the peoplethat are currently in my life.They're making me feel this way.Or you could reverse that.The people that are currently in my lifethat made me feel this way are very,have some very similar characteristics tothe people in my childhoodthat made me feel that way.I recognize the connection.Yeah.Yeah.I just, I just did.I just recognize the connection.There's some maturity thing.Yeah.And then I was like, okay.Now that I see it, once you see it,you're like, Oh, and ittakes away all the power.Yeah.Like they don't have power anymore.Yeah.So now I'm like, and it's amazing.Cause then you don't realize how muchenergy, how muchthought and emotion you'vebeen putting into certain people untilyou finally see reality.And then you get that time and energyback and you're like, Oh my God.Wow.I was, you didn't realize how much youwere, you were energy.You were putting into it.Yeah. So yeah, but I would sayoverall, um, securely attached.I don't think I have anymore anxious attachment.I think that was the lastof my anxious attachment.And it's probably because again, thosepeople triggered the same stuff that wastriggered in my childhood and I didn't, Ididn't realize it was going on.And that's, that also is interesting tome is how did I not see that?But I think it was just, again, so busyliving my life, raising my children, youknow, and finally it got to the pointwhere I had to face it and I was like,what is this, what is going on?Cause it was just so unusual.So I was, I led to and have settled intosecure attachment, you know, and I couldsay, I feel like I finallyam there even with friends.I'm very choosy about thefriends I give my time to.Um, and there's no, it'stotally secure attachment.Yeah.There's, I've never been anxiouslyattached to friends actually, even when Iwas a kid, I was never a big anxious.It's so weird with boys.I was, but with my, well, no, in middleschool, elementary school, middle school,I was anxiouslyattached about girlfriends.And then in high school is when I wasstarted getting securely attached to mygirlfriends in mylife and then in college.So middle elementary school, middleschool, highlyanxiously attached, try andtry and try and try and try and try.And then I just, I think I just met theright people, the right girls in myschool and, and college, you know, I alsohad a boyfriend, you know, so, and he gota lot of my energy and time there's, if Icould go back, I would be single, single,single, but I was trying tofulfill those abandonment issues.So you can't, yeah, I understand why Ihad the boyfriend, but, um, I, I, Iremember always wondering how my friendscould be single and not want to not havea boyfriend and be just fine.It just, it didn't make any sense to me,but that goes back to that abandonment.So anyways, that's where I'm at now, butwith you, I find it very interestingbecause as you said, you came from avery, well, I mean, weshouldn't say typical.Um, childhood, cause there's a lot ofpeople who had trauma in typical homes.So just cause you have two parents andyou live in what seemslike a normal childhood,there's a lot of abuse thatgoes on in those homes too.It doesn't mean that everything's great,but in yoursituation, that's not the case.Yeah.Right.So, but yeah, I, I don't want to saylike, oh, if you havedivorced parents, youautomatically have trauma and if you havemarried parents, you automatically don't.Absolutely not the case.You know, but you started out, I'd saysecure attached, right?Yeah.I think I did.And I, I've even thought about it causeI'm not going to go too into it, but youknow, as a kid, I was brought to myaunt's house and, and,uh, and left with relatives.I had my, um, spent a lot of time underthe care of other relatives.And, but I have no, I was thinking, I'mlike, there's gotta be something bad.There's gotta be, right?Everybody has some weird shit and it'slike, I didn't really have any badexperiences with any of those peopletaking care of me and stuff.Right.Right.So I think that you had any though issueswith the fact that your parents weren'tthere because you were having to spendtime with these other relatives and yourparents weren't able to be there duringthose years, I'm not saying in yourwhole childhood during those years whereyour parents had to give theirattention to your sibling.Um, and so as a result, you spent your, alot of formativeyears with your differentaunts and uncles andcousins, which was all positive.But if you look at it from the outside,um, do you think that during thoseformative years that had any effect onyour attachment that your parents weren'tthere during that time or no?I don't think so.And I've, I would love to find thenugget, but I've notbeen able to find onebecause I can't think of it becauseeverybody made it okay.Yeah.Everyone made it okay.And, and, you know, which is great.No, it is.It means that there wasa strong village there.Yeah.Yeah.Yeah.So it was all, even in that situation, itwas, you were able tostill have a healthyenvironment and have a secure attachment.Yeah.To the, cause it says tothe caregivers, it's related.The attachment style is related to thecare experiences with thecaregivers in your life.It doesn't say parents.So during those years, cause what agewould you say we'retalking for those years of you?Gosh, I don't even know.It's my earliest memories.Okay.So let's say three, four,like probably like little.Yeah.Yeah.I would assume so.10, 12, like 10 years of your life.Yeah.Maybe, maybe, maybe I honestly don't knowbecause it's, and Idon't think I'm blockingit out per se.I almost had to go back because, youknow, going fromlittle kid, then I became, Iplayed sports and that became my focusand it was in school and there was no.Okay.So when you think back on your childhood,your childhood is the spendingtime with your aunts anduncles and that's a block.And then the next block is sports.No, I don't know if I'd go there.I mean, I'm not, no, no.I mean, we lived in onehouse and moved to another house.We were a family unit.We'd get in the car, the four of us andgo drive to relatives in the next townover or the same town, there were familyparties we'd all go to.We'd ride home together in the car.There were, we wouldmake trips to West Virginia.I would spend time there with family.Yeah.So no, no.I mean, that's all a big continuum.Right.So then this part where you're talkingabout where you spent most of your timewith your aunts and uncles, were thoseexperiences you just talked aboutintermixed with that time?Yeah.Yeah.A hundred percent.Okay.Yeah.Yeah.Okay.Yeah.So, so it was like, there were times whenyou were only with your aunts anduncles, and then therewas normal family time.A hundred percent.Yeah.That's what I mean.Yeah.Yeah.Okay.And to your point, that'sthe caregiver part of it.Yes.When I was with my nuclear family, thefour of us and our dog, right?Everything's fine.When my parents needed to tend to mysister really, and, um, I would be at oneof my aunt's house andeverything there was fine.Right.Truly was to find something becausewell, no, it seems uncanny that there arepeople that are securely attached.Yeah.That did not havetrauma in their childhood.Yeah.Um, but what would you say?Like, cause you're a Gen X man, right?And we touched on thisbriefly in an episode.Um, and it's funny cause we had some GenX women come in and say they, theywere treated the same way.But would you say that your emotionalmaturity in general was, um, given theattention it should have during yourformative years so that you would be ableto see that your emotional intelligencecould grow and evolve to where it shouldbe by the time you were an adult?I would probably say no, but I don't, Ithink that feels more generational to me.That's what I'm talking about.That's what I'm asking you this not toput the blame on anyone.Yeah.Yeah.I'm not defending anyone.Okay.Okay.I'm just saying generationally as a, as aGen X guy, would you say that that,that, that part of your personality was,um, what's the right word?Shush.I feel like that's a generational thing.Probably.Yeah.Right.Right.What we talked about this where wecouldn't, it wasn'tcool to cry per se, butit was fine to be angry or it was fine toprobably get in the fight.Oh boys will be boys.They'll fight.Right.Right.So sure.I don't, you know, yeah, I wouldn't saythat my generation was, it was notfacilitated to, you know, to explore youremotional side, nor your emotionalintelligence, if that'swhat you're asking me.No, I don't think so.So as a result of this generate, noteveryone, I'm sure there are many healthymen, Gen X men whose parents were of adifferent sort and actually like werein touch with their son's emotions andhelp them understand their emotions andidentify their emotions and express theiremotions and all that, but in general.And again, this could happen to Gen Xwomen too, but we're talking, I'mtalking about Gen X men.Would, would you say that as a result ofthat, a lot of Gen X men maybe ended uplooking to ourselves as opposed, embarrassed girls orthinking, okay, I really wasa securely attached person.Truly was.But as I've gone throughout life,I've definitely have levels of mistrust.Mistrust across thebroad spectrum of things.I don't trust public institutions.I don't trust groups of people.I don't trust groupthink.I don't trust certain people, right?So I have mistrust.But I think that's allnatural and it could be explained.I definitely avoid certain situations.I don't like to get into conflict,but I'm not afraid ofit, as you know, right?I'm fine with conflict,depending on what the conflict's forand what it's all about, right?The lady speeding yesterday at me saying,"Slow down, that's conflict."I'm not afraid of that.You get into, you have two,I have two sons and a daughter, right?And boy, I've learned a lot,learned a lot just byhaving to be their parent,be their dad, right, their caregiver.So they've certainly brought outa more emotional, softer side of methan probably what would have beenfacilitated naturallyas my upbringing, ifthat makes sense, right?Especially a daughter.But at the same time, having two boys,there's an age difference there.I've definitely was more of a Gen X dadtowards our older onethan our second one.So I've certainly evolved, right?And that's sort ofthat spectrum of things.Am I answering your question here?You found, youdefinitely gave our younger sonmore grace than our older son.Probably, yeah.So you answered it on the broad spectrumof how things in society affect you.And as a parent, how would you say,not how, how would you say though?I gotta avoid this.You're avoiding, how would you sayyour emotional intelligence developmentaffected your interpersonalrelationships like your marriage?What do you mean?So do you think, see,cause we see that thereseems to be a lot of conflictbetween men and women fromthe feedback we're getting.And a lot of these, the age of the menand women are Gen X.And there's a lot of butting heads.Like they, the womenfeel like they have beenused for labor, used for sex,used for being a motherto these men's children.And the women feel, I mean, the men feelthat the women have used them for moneyand to do thingsaround the house, basically.So neither side feelsappreciated, obviously.And I'm wondering how muchthat ties back to the stuntingof the emotionalintelligence of Gen X menand Gen X women in certain situations.But I'm gonna speak about Gen X menby their emotional intelligence.You know, no one talks about anxiety.No one talks about social anxiety.No one talked about feeling overwhelmed.You're feeling overwhelmed right now.No one helped Gen X menwhen they were childrenidentify what they're feeling.And so it could just, itends up going to anger.Cause if you're feeling anxious,if you're feelingoverwhelmed, if you're feeling sadand it's not being dealtwith or you're not being guidedon how to cope with it, it ends upsettling into anger.So then as you become an adultand you get into arelationship with a womanand you might be having,she may be trying toexpress something like,I need this or could you dothis or I'm feeling this way.They're feeling overwhelmed.They don't feel equipped.They're feeling defensive.I'm failing in some waybecause she's coming to meneeding something.I'm obviously not meeting that need.I don't understandexactly what she needs.I'm defensive because Icannot meet this need.I don't think I'm feeling overwhelmed.I have anxiety.It's going to turn to anger, avoid.It's a breakdown in the marriage, right?And that builds resentment.Then the woman doesn't feel heard.She feels pushed aside thather feelings aren't valid.That what she is bringing to himis not being honored or acknowledgedand doesn't matter to him,but it doesn't necessarily,that's not necessarilywhere he's coming from.He's just not equipped and to handle itbecause nobody taughthim how to recognizewhat emotions he's feeling.So I'm wondering if the stuntingof the emotionalintelligence of Gen X men,and I'm only speaking about Gen X menbecause that's my generation.I'm sure Boomer men alsohave gone through this,but Gen X talks about stuff.So I'm wondering howthat's played into the breakdownof relationships and marriagesand why you're seeing such vitriolwhen it comes to right now,how they're talking about each other.And so that brings me back to my point.Did you think that youremotional intelligencewas fostered in a productive wayto prepare you to being a marriage?I'm going to avoid that direct questionbecause I think you've just said a ton.You really did say a lot.I'm surprised at the vitriol as well.I'm in the camp of if I'm scrollingand I see something that,you don't have to comment on everything.And you certainly, you can refrainfrom attacking other people,especially people you don't know.So I'm shocked at the responseof women sorting things outfor the first time incertain cases and celebrating it.I think that's great.Believe it or not, I'ma huge fan and advocateof women, women's rights and everything.And maybe having a daughter allowed,really pushed me there on anemotional intelligence level.But I'm 100%, I think it's great.I think it's great.Because we've talked a lot about it.The Gen X women are really the onesit feels like that are discovering this.But as we've talkedabout the generation of womenbehind us are probably muchstronger right off the rip.Yeah.Which is great.I think it's great.It's a human evolutionary thing.I think it's wonderful.The one thing that'sinteresting to me though,and we've joked about this,but you kind of summed upmaybe our lives or marriage.Maybe arguments we've had, right?Definitely hits home and I'm not perfect.But the emotional intelligence,I've said this beforein your like whatever,where I say I knoweverything or I feel everything.I feel everything.And I do believe, I don'tknow if I feel everything.I certainly don't know everything.But I feel a lot and sure, it'soverwhelming I think.And I think I probably amrepresentative of my generation.The world's fucking crazyand we're living within it.And we're trying toprovide for our family within it.And we're trying tointeract with people we care withand not be assholes.And so it's a lot.And we probably didn't, but who does?How do you get equipped todeal with all of this stuffunless you talk about it, right?But you don't talk aboutthis in our generation.And I think, yeah,maybe I'm making your point,but it blows me away that like,Nathan and his buddies willtalk about certain things.My buddies and I, wedon't really talk about stuff.You'd be like, "Hey, you okay? I'm good.All right, cool.Let's go get up here."You know, that kind of thing.So maybe I'm making your pointand it's probably notthat you're making a point,it's a question, it's an observation.No, you didn't answer.Do you think that theemotional intelligence,the lack of acknowledging and honoringand supporting youremotional intelligence growthaffected how you approachsome things in marriage?Do you think that ifthings would have been,and again, this is not blaming anyone,this is a generational thing.Do you think that ifyour emotional intelligencewould have been given as much attentionas your athletic performance or youracademic performanceor your expectations as a son, as abrother, as a friend,if your emotionalintelligence would have been acknowledgedas much as those things,then you would have been more equippedin an interpersonalrelationship with a woman?Of course, but that wasn't happening.And it took that to not happenand the world to evolve for usto be able to do that with our kids.Because I absolutely feellike I do that with my kids.But I also, I have a psych degree.And so I kind of havean affinity to this,I kind of got into that stuff.I'm Freud and Jung and Skinner and Pavlovand all these differentbehaviorist and stuff like that.So I learned about that out of interest.But then again, that'sstill an external thing.You can learn about that intellectuallyand even sometimesmaybe apply it to yourself.But when it comes to a relationship,do you think thatyou've been more avoidantand men in general yourage may be more avoidantwhen it comes to conflictwithin their interpersonalrelationship, their marriage,because they're notequipped to handle it?I don't know if they're, it's afascinating question.Just to go back and put a bow on thatlast statement though,the reason I'm ableto do it with our kidsis because of you as well.And you setting a,you're very good at that.And you've educated me on how tocommunicate with themand when to not be anasshole probably, right?Or not to push, but to setstep back and create space.Listen, maybe they're going through this.So you get a ton of credit for that.I'll give myself some credit forfollowing it, I guess.Yes, yeah.But I think when itcomes to, you know, men,it's fascinating becausewe've talked about this.You fall into roles andthe roles get probably deeperand deeper the further you go alongwithout any course correction, right?And so at the end of theday, I think for my generation,we just don't feel likedealing with a fucking argument.You know what I mean?So it's like, I don'twanna fight about this.So I'm just gonna go out in the garageand puffs around or whatever.And that's an avoidant, right?It's 100% avoidant,but it's also tomaintain peace and harmony.There's a strategy behind avoidance.And it's not the worst thing.Okay, so you just brought up an interesting thingbecause it is the worst thing.And because it only brings peace.Temporary peace.Temporary peace is not the worst thing.To the man, I'm not gonnasay to you, to the man it does.Because I'm here to tell you when a manhas that attitude of,I don't wanna havethis argument right now.I don't wanna talk about this right now.I'm gonna go out in thegarage and a man thinkshe's diffusing the situation.All that's happened there,I'm educating men right now.Mark my words.You have lit a match.And she was at levelfive, but you walking awayand saying, you're nottalking about it right now.And I'm speaking,wait, I'm speaking to men.I'm not speaking to you.I'm speaking to men.Because I'm not making this like apersonal thing, right?Now she's level 10because she feels invalidated.She feels that the mandoesn't care about her feelings,about what she brought to him.She feels undermined and belittled.And the resentment thatis the planting the seedsof resentment and everytime, it also creates distrust.Because every time a woman comes to a manwith something that ishurting her or bothering her,she is trusting him with thatvulnerable part of her heart.I'm going to take achance and share with youwhat is hurting me orwhat is bothering me.I trust you enough to bring that to you.And when he's like, I can'ttalk about that right now.I don't want to get in this argument.We're not doing this.She literally feels like hestepped on her heart, right?Like that he's like,I don't care about youand how you feel.I'm not saying that's how it is.I'm saying that's how she feels.And so you do that enough.The seeds of resentmentgrow and build a fricking wall.And also she will stop trusting you.She will stop bringing things to you.And then you get divorced.This is how it happens.No, no, it'sfascinating because honestly,what you just describedto a male of my generation,I will represent as very dramatic.We did not step on your heart.We did not step on your emotions.There's just something going on.And here's where it's problematic.I'll give you this.If that becomes the norm,then that's not okay, right?If this happens 10times, nine out of 10 times,it's like I'm going tothe garage or whatever.That's what I'm saying.90% of the time is not good.If there's some ratio inbetween there that, right?It's got to work for everybody, right?These are dynamic situations.It's a relationship.It's two people.Of course.And so it can't be 90% of thetime you're like, all right,let's talk and how are you?Tell me everything that's going wrong.Let me make it, youknow, let me just listen.Why not?Because it's a lot, it's a lot.Okay, so that though, okay,but that brings me back tothe emotional intelligenceof Gen X men because Ithink it feels like it's a lotbecause Gen X men were not equippedwith how to deal with emotions.And so their first emotionwith that is feeling overwhelmedfeeling ill-equipped,feeling anxious, and it's a lot.I can't handle this.I think that's, I don'tthink they're feeling,I don't love you.I don't think they'refeeling, I want to hurt you.I think that they are like,I don't know how to do this.I'm going to avoid this and hope thatshe'll just like settledown and simmer down.And then life will justkind of get back to normal.And we'll just start being normal again.And what they don't realize is that sure,she seems normal, butdude, no, it's damaging.And it's over and over again.And eventually the relationship isdamaged beyond repair.Let me ask you a question.Do you think the behaviorof Gen X women is similaror comparable to theseyounger generation of women?Meaning we've talkedabout emotional capabilitiesof younger men.It feels like youngerwomen have similarly advanceddevelopment of their ownemotional control, right?You see where I'm going here.Advanced development oftheir emotional control.Compared to a Gen X woman.So here's where I'm going.(laughing)What makes you thinkyou girls are not a lot?From a Gen X guy, you'resaying it's the Gen X manis ill-equipped to deal with this.Why do we need to beequipped to deal with it?And again, I'm askingfor the masses, right?No, I understand.Right, yeah, okay.Cause it's not complicated stuff, right?Okay, so when people get, let's saythey're getting married.I'm going to bring marriage into this.I know not everyone gets married,but let's say they get married, right?And so back for Gen Xers, noone ever talked about roles.No one ever talked about a man helpingon the domestic front.That was not talked about.What was talked about isa woman should go to work.A woman should have children.A woman should raise those children.A woman should cookdinner, do the laundry,clean the house, plan everything,all the doctor's appointments, driveeveryone everywhere,basically do everything.The man goes to work.The man takes care ofthe lawn and all the leavesand the gutters andall that stuff, right?So that is how Gen X was sold.Boys and girls were sold that.You boys were sold that andus girls were sold that, right?Now in there, no one acknowledgedemotional intelligenceat all, even in the girls.And then the emotional developmentof both Gen X boys and Gen X girlswas not acknowledgedon either front, right?So we just were kind of like,all those things Gen X went through,but let's just focus onemotional development.That was not acknowledged really ingeneral, in general.So then we grow upand we marry each other.And in our minds, wehave two different ideasof how things are gonna go, right?Us Gen X girls think, ofcourse a woman can do everythingbecause that's what we see on TV.And those are thecommercials and the TV shows.And we see our momsand our aunts working,sometimes our grandmas,single moms, married moms,everyone seems to be fine.So that's what we're gonna do.We're gonna do it all.And then the men are like, yeah,she's gonna do it alland I'm gonna go to workand take care of things around the house.And no emotionaldevelopment happened, right?So then as the women are humming along,doing 90% of the domestic load,in addition to working afull-time job and handling,same stuff that men arehandling at their job.I'm not saying literally thesame, but the same pressures.Why is it different?It's the same shit.So handling the samestuff, 40 hours a week,give or take, whatever.And the second job of thedomestic load and the children,a human being can't handle thatemotionally and mentally.They get burned out,they become disconnected.They go into fight or flight.They go into autopilot because it's agrind that never endsbecause you never get a break.Women were not coming home from work,sitting on a couch,turning on the TV and chillingwhile someone's makingdinner in the kitchen.The men were.The children were not going to the menasking for help on this, help on that.The mothers assault.This is how it ended upfor us as Gen Xers, right?So then she comes to him and she's like,I'm upset about this or I need thisor can we talk about this?And it could be the smallest thing.Like, I can't handle, Ineed the bathrooms cleanedor I need you to take me out on a dateor I need you to helpJimmy with his homework.It could be anything, right?She's asking for help.And she's coming, she'sprobably been grinding so longthat by the time she comes tohim, she's at her wit's end.So there's a chance itcould be coming intentlyand in an intense way.Like, dude, whatever, I need help.Because his emotionaldevelopment wasn't acknowledged,he's feeling completelyoverwhelmed with this reaction.He feels defensive.He feels like she's sayinghe's doing something wrong.He thinks she's acting crazy.Where's this coming from?Everything's been fine.Where's this coming from?Why all of a suddenare you acting like this?We've all been fine.When really she hasn't been fine.She's been falling apart.And then he's like, Ican't deal with this.I'm gonna avoid.I'm going in the garage,I can't deal with this.She feels pushed aside.She feels like he's not gonna help.She feels like she's invalidatedand that happens overand over and over again.And eventually sheeither, the marriage falls apartwhen the children areyoung or she hits menopauseor she hits midlifeand she's like, I'm done.I can't do this anymore.You don't hear me.I've had done this for 30years or 25 years, whatever.I'm gonna go spend therest of my life for myself.And then the men are mad.I think though, I think what you just didis you backed intotaking it off men's platesas a sole source.And what I mean by that is, as you know,I'm very much an evolutionist in thatI think the world continues to evolveand we get better and better.That's the wheel of turns.And the younger generationsare doing better emotionallythan us, right?So I believe that that's evolution.What you just described is new or was newin that thegenerations before us, in the US,I don't know elsewhere,I'll just speak for the US,but I feel like at aglobal, not a global levelbecause we're the richestnation in the world, right?So I'll keep it as a US-based thing.But it was typicallythe guy would go work,mom would stay home and that's not evenaccurate too, right?But for certain parts of the story.In general, yes it is, it is.So then all of a sudden,and that's what we grew up with modeled.That was modeled behavior for us.That's what I saw myuncles and aunts and everybody,that's what they did.That's what you saw.Yeah, that's what I saw.I saw the opposite of that.Yes, but my point is, in general,we grew up with the beavers, right?No, no, in general, we grew upas the first children of divorce.Yes, yes.So it depends on whereyou were, you had both.You had either leave it to beaver life.We were the part of where they melded.Some were leave it to beaver lifeand some were children of divorce.You're kind of making my point.There was a paradigmshift in our generation.Gen X was the paradigm shift from,generally speaking, therewasn't divorce as much as,there wasn't daycare, right?Gen X is on theforefront of divorce, daycare.You can bring home thebacon and make it too,whatever the hell it is, right?So yeah, we didn't havethat model of behavior as men.And now all of a sudden,and you had used the word,I'll go back to you, yousaid women are humming along,working outside the home,taking care of the kids.They weren't humming,because then you cameback to the reality,they were grinding.Grinding.Yes.With slow, whenyou're grinding as hard as,women would be grinding like that.It's slowly, it's not cool.It eats away at you.It eats away at your soul.Yes.Yes, I get it.So, but there was nopreparation for this,for any of us, not men or women.What's finally happened, I think, is,maybe women, they're, they've,I don't know, maybe youcan explain it better,but it feels like they've had enough,because they've had enough.And men, we were,we've had model behaviorthat was different.So you're coming to us now,because you're grinding,you're, it's a lot, right?You need some support.And we're like, what's wrong?Dinner, I'm chilling,I just worked all day,gonna put on the game, youknow, that kind of thing.And you're like, oh.Yeah.Yeah, no, so I get it,but it's, I don't think,we've been oversimplifying it,saying that it's men, anemotional lack of maturity,or lack of emotional development.I think you just hitit on the head though,you guys didn't have thatemotional preparation either.You were thrown into thismedia created environmentthat we all were, right?We all grew up, I grew upin the generation of like,you know, cosmopolitan, playboy,thought we're all marryingmodels that could do it all,right, we all thought wewere marrying that woman.Right, right.So, you know, I thinkthat's more it than,I don't think it'scompletely picking on men,that they couldn't deal with it.But what I do see, and Idon't think this is a bad thing,women your age, yourgeneration, Gen X women are saying,fuck this, we've had enough.And men are not,they're not hearing that,they're not getting ahead of that enoughto prevent the nuclear option,which is the divorce, is the pure hatred.And we see it, right?We've seen plenty ofcomments from men that it's like,guys, just keep moving.You don't need to comein and attack these women,it's unnecessary.Well, but I think also their reaction,I think women are saying we've had enoughand their reaction isindicative or an exampleof the whole thing.So I think women werecoming to the men in their livesrepeatedly saying, please, I need this.Can you hear me about this?I need you tounderstand this, la, la, la, la,over and over again, pushaside, push aside, push aside,avoid, avoid, avoid,the men were avoiding.And so now the women arelike, okay, I'm leavingbecause I can't do this anymore.And then the men now arehaving a reaction to thatbecause they didn'tacknowledge any of these conversationsup to this point.And so they'recompletely taking it personally.That's one thing I'verealized is they're taking itas some sort of like, Idon't even know if it's personalbecause that would mean that they'retaking accountability.It's almost like they'retaking it like the womanis putting herself past her family.That's how it is.They're viewing it asshe's putting her needsand her happiness past herfamily when she's saying,I've just spent the last 30years giving everything I haveto this family and you neverheard me when I needed help.And I'll say it again,I'm absolutely pro woman.Good, good for thewomen to finally put it,their needs above therest of what was going onbecause at your age,your kids are probably,not every case, right?But the kids areprobably in an okay spot.You've hit this point in your lifewhere you probablyare able to spend less,we've talked about this.You're not having to cookfor five people right now.Right. Right?Yes, I've been able tolet go of some of the thingsI was doing. Yeah, there'ssome of the responsibilities.Yeah, yeah, butwhat's unfortunate though,and I agree with you, good.And I think it's amazing and I love it.I love it, I love it, I love it.But what's sad is thatso many times these womenthat are reclaiming their energyand moving on into thenext phase of their life,they're having toleave their marriage behindbecause their marriage was part of whatwas destroying them.And that's what's sad.And that's where I go back to theemotional developmentbecause I feel like someof it ties back to that.If the emotionaldevelopment, the emotional maturity,emotional intelligence,whatever you wanna call it,if it had been dealtwith and acknowledgedfor Gen X in general as children,we probably would havebeen able to communicatewith each other better in marriage.And then you may not be havingso many midlife divorces right now.And I think you brought this up.The millennials havealready evolved in so many wayswhen it comes to communication.In general, the men, the millennial menare way more in tunewith the needs athome, the childcare needs.I don't think as many of them view it as,I'm babysitting mykids, whereas Gen X men,it was more I'mbabysitting while she's gettingher nails done.And again, I think Gen Zwill keep going with that.So it is evolutionary.It's an evolutionary thing.But I think what we'reseeing now is there are a lotof divorces happening right now.And I think if you go backand it brings us backto attachment styles,I think that a lot ofthe Gen X men were avoidantor fearful avoidant.And maybe you have a lot of Gen X womenthat were anxious attachment.And when you put an anxious attachmentand an avoidanttogether, it's not gonna workbecause she's the more she's trying,the more she's trying,the more he's pulling away.Yes, we've done that ourselves.You tried to get my attention.I'm like, ugh.Yes.So I'm not, we are not innocent of it.Oh no, no, no.And I'm a huge component of it.There's two of us.Yes.And, you know.No, no, no, we, I mean,I am here to say that,you've definitely beenan avoidant attachmentor a fearful attachmentat parts of our marriage.And I've been anxiousattachment in parts of our marriage.And a lot of people think you can't havea successfulrelationship with an avoidantor a fearful avoidant,that you almost have to give up yourselfin order to do that.But I'm here to say that's not true.Well, I think you--But I am here to say that it's not easy,and it's not easy to be withan anxious attachment either.And that's why it's importantthat at least withinthe marriage, as you grow,your goal should be tobecome securely attached.I would say 100% agree,but think of it this way,or a way to think about it.You know, I'm a big young yet.And he's very much into the developmentof the individual and individuation.And marriage isn't easy.Relationships aren't easy,especially something that spans decades,and children, and financial cycles,and jobs, and buying homes,or selling, whatever, right?There's the world's fucking crazy.Yeah.I think in thisattachment style conversation,you float in and out of different things.That's what I foundmost fascinating about it,looking at it, there's four boxes,but there's variations of each.The most important thing I think to do,and the way toprevent divorce is probably,you have to continue todevelop as an individual.And you forced me todevelop as an individualby holding me accountable.The kids have forced meto develop as an individualby holding me accountable.There's just certainthings I can't do that,or say that are innate tome being from Gen X, right?That shit that's probably inappropriate,and they'll call me on it.Or that's just weird,whatever, in my sense of humor.So it's like, you've gotta continueto evolve and catch yourself.Yes.And then I think at the end of the day,you have to do what you can to bring thatto the relationship.And the other person has to do the same.So it's not a he or a she thing.What you're describing, I think,what we've tappedinto or discovered here,and shouldn't be rocket science hereto figure this shit out,but these divorces arebecause they've grown apart,or one's individuated, orone's developed individually,and the other hasn't.One's had stunted growth, one hasn't.Yeah, and I think there's resentment.The communication ofresentment and all that.Resemmon has a big, big part of it.So no, I think that another thingthat I don't thinkit's talked about enoughwhen it comes to relationships is thatif a man canfacilitate the woman in his lifeto be in her feminine more,then there's true balance.And I think therelationship works better.So women do a lot, men do a lot,but women do carry theemotional baggage of the family,and so many other littlethings that are always in her mindis constant,constant, constant, constant.And so if a man can relievesome of the stress baggagefrom her and allow her to soften,because the morestress and the more baggage,mental baggage and emotional baggagea woman carries fromcaring for the family,the more harder she's gonnaget because she's so stressed.So try to re-explain that in a way that,because what I heard you,but it almost feels like,I'm not taking it this way,but I could picture someone,especially with some of the juvenilecommentary we've seen.It almost sounds like you just said,take the problems off her plate.And I don't thinkyou're 100% saying that,you're saying more share in that, right?I'm saying-- But you mentionedat the beginning that itwould help her be more feminine.What does that mean? Andlet her be in her feminine.So I think with the wholewomen working too and all that,which by the way, I wanna be clear,I'm totally for women being able to workand having financialfreedom and all that,and growth and chasing their dreams.So I wanna be very clear.But with them having to takeon working outside the homeand their other job,because working in thehome domestically is a job.I also believe that 100%.Stay-at-home moms are working a joband working moms are working a job.Working moms are working both jobs.So it's almost like,men need to work on creating the spaceto give the women in their livesan opportunity to be in their feminine.What does that mean?So I'm gonna explain.It can be very simple.She's grinding.She's doing what she wantsto do, chasing her dreams,working, raisingchildren, cleaning the house,all those things, right?So she's working hard.Balance it.Open her car door.Open the door at the restaurant.Pull out the chair for her.If she's carrying bags, go get the bags.Unload the car, the groceries.Bring her flowers.And I know it sounds simple,but this is what willhelp her feel like a woman.And I'm not even talkingabout as a relationship thing.Let her, it helps her be inher feminine in that moment.And it helps her downshift a bit.It helps her soften.And as a result,those little thingsthat are just for her,as a result, she will be moreopen to the man in her life,if that makes sense.What's interesting is it makes me thinkthat what you're describingis keep reminding the womanfrom a man's perspective,why you got together in the first place.Because at some point it wasn't a grind.It was infatuation that led to love,then the rest of itshistory type of thing, right?True.But it's also, andthis is some people may,this may trigger some people,but it's also being the man in her life.This isn't a competition.A lot of men getcompetitive with their women partners,which it baffles me.This isn't a competition.And this could be for not just,this could be for homosexuals too.I'm not talking about men and women,I'm talking about roles, right?So the masculineperson in a relationship,and I'm gonna speakin a heterosexual way,the man, there'stimes he just needs to bethe man to the woman,because it allows her tonot be all the other things.He's creating space forher to just be a woman.And then she can be in her feminine,because it's almost likewhen she's doing all that stuff,she's in hermasculine, if that makes sense.And so it's like, one ofthe things I think men loveabout women is their femininity.It's the opposite of men.You love thesoftness, you love the curves,I'm just speaking physically,but you love the sensitivity, thenurturing tendencies,the ability to make ahome look beautiful,ability to listen andrelate and be there for youas a friend and watch them,women, raise your childrenand love on your childrenand all the different thingswomen do that are magical.So help her hold onto that part of herand not becomecompletely in her masculine.Because so many women, so many women,that's the firstthing they have to let goin order to grind as hard as they do.And so the men in their life need to,not need to, but should want to say,"I got you, I got you."I'm gonna get you adrink, I'm gonna order for you."It's the smallest things,take away her decision fatigue.You do it.Take away her decisionfatigue or she shouldn't have to,she can carry that bag, butshe shouldn't always have to.Does that make sense?Yeah, no, 100%.And as a result, it balances outthat male masculine feminine in a woman.And I think then it also creates balancein the relationship.Yeah, I'm thinking too though,could you answer it the same way?Could you provide ananswer for what women could dofor men to relieve some of whatever?I can't even think,because I understand you,but I don't totally relate.In general, they do.Because they, in general,they're the ones whodo the grocery shopping,do the cooking, all that stuffthat men don't have to thinkabout, women already do it.But that's not true,because that's not true.There's some men who do it all too.And we've seen it,some of these guys that,some of the commentary youcan tell that they don't,they can't identify with certain aspectsbecause maybe they're doing more.Sure, I'm sure there's situations wherethere's a man that does all the things,and in that situation, I100% think she should step upand start doing some of that stuff.That's a given.Like I don't understand womenwho would just sitaround the house and not,if they're home, you need to bemaintaining that house.That's your job.Like you clean thehouse, you plan the groceries,you cook the meals, you plan the meals,you take care of the job.If you're staying home long,that's what you'redoing, that's your job, right?But if you're a working mom,then he needs to alsobe helping on the state,on the domestic front,and you're working together as partners.But okay, so in that situation,let's say they're both working,and then they're bothworking well as partners,and then he should also bedoing those little thingsto help keep her in her femininity,but then she should also do those thingsto help him feel good about himself too,because men have egos--That's where I'm going, what are,I don't know what those things are.I mean if I had to guess.What, sex orsomething? I think it's sexual.Its sexual.I think it's sexual.Am I wrong?Um, no I think that,But you can be honest.Yeah that's what I'm trying to think of.Maybe that is the main thing.I think for women it's abunch of little things,and I think for men it'sjust kind of one thing.I mean other than you know listening,and whatever they want to talk about,and you know, and in theirinterest, like we do all that,you know, you want to talkabout fishing and it's like,oh, that'sinteresting. Not that, you know,but you should do that for us. Like youdon't really care about certain things,but you're going tolisten. Um, but I think, okay.So the way, the way,I'm not going to say the way that sexmakes men feels how women feel aboutall those little things.That's how it makes us feel. Um,I think men, I think men get validation through sex.In addition to pleasure. Um,I think it's the way menfeel wanted by their partner.And I think the way womenfeel wanted sexually to women,want their partner to be sexuallyattracted to them. Don't get me wrong.But I think these other waysare another way, like showing,oh, doing all those little things I wastalking about a women,a woman also feels, um, that the man in her life wants her andvalues her with those actions.Right. Does that make sense? All thoselittle things I said,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.That, but that doing allthose things, when I say habit,then that helps her being her femininity.That leads to usually leads to sex.See a woman needs things like that.And then she's like, see a woman needs things like that inorder to want to be intimate withsomeone. Yeah. And I think that's adisconnect with men and women.Men honestly can just be intimate withsomeone and there's nothing wrong withthat, but they can. Women for them tofully want to be intimate with,I'm talking about their partner. There'snot a one night stand. You,there has to be something there. Um,a feeling like that you're cared for,you're valued sometenderness to lead you to that space.I do think there's more than sex though.I'm really pondering it while you've saidit and there definitely is more thansex, but you know, it's,it's funny cause as creatures,probably sex is definitely number one,right? For all men. Yes. Um,so that's no shocker,but I do think there's,I'm trying to think of other things likeI, for us, I'll make it about us. Okay.Our walks are when we walk in the morningand we're talking and shooting theshit and stuff like that. Ithink that's good and healthy.Yes. There's gotta be other thingsthough. Oh, well,doing things together. I,I mean travel, peopletravel together. Yeah.People like to go out to eat together.Um, maybe like howpeople play pickleball,you know, all those different hobbies,common interest in hobbies.And I think doing those things togetherdoes continue to bond the relationship.Yeah. Yeah. And, um,and we'll as a result makethe sex life healthy too.Cause the sex life, but see,here's the other thing when women go intomenopause perimenopause affects awomen's libido. And so there could be aperiod where a woman is not as into sex.And she doesn't even know why. Cause,cause for gen X women,we didn't know what was going on. Sowe're all learning this now, right?So when they hit like 45 or 43 and all ofa sudden they're not wanting to havesex as much and they maythink, Oh, it's cause I'm tired.It's because we have so much going on,even though there was still stuff goingon in your thirties and twenties and youwanted to have sex more, but for somereason, you're just like, Oh,I'm just getting older.Yeah. And then you learn, Oh,it was my hormones. And maybe if peoplewould have talked about it,I could have gone on hormone replacementtherapy and my libido would have stayednormal. So then you're playing catch up.A lot of these women are playing catchup, trying to get their libido back. Um,and so that that canaffect the relationship.Cause if you were having a regular sexlife and then all of a sudden you're not,and then he takes that personally and hedoesn't know why, but neither does she.So there's a breakdown there.Honestly, I mean,I feel like we covered some ground herebecause started off with theseattachment styles,but I really think we got into somedynamics around relationships and I feelbetter for the men becausewe're not the evil, you know,ogres of emotionaldevelopment. I think we certainly are,but I do think women areculpable at this as well. Also,you just touched on a huge point.There's biological events happening atthe female level at the male level too.Yeah.The female level that you guys didn'ttalk about it because you were raised bysilent generation or boomersor whatever. Yeah. And so it's,it's new to everybody. And again, I goback to the evolutionary tale.We're talking about it. There was nopodcast 20 years ago talking about that.Right. So now the peoplebelow us, the kids below us can,there's just more information.Well, it's one of thereasons we're doing this, right?And it's one of the reasons I continue towant to talk about some of this stuffbecause I want there to be resources formillennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha,whatever, you know, aslong as these podcasts are up,some of this stuff Iwant it to be talked about.So if somebody goes to search about this,cause they don't knowwhat's going on in their life.There's at least somebody, a couple heretalking about it, saying,this is normal. Yeah. Um, yeah. Honestly,there's just so many things,again, that Gen X was ignored about. Andso I, but like, we'll talk about it.We're not scared. That's one thing. We'renot scared because I know the boomer,the boomer women, it wasn't talked about.And some boomer women are proud of that.They're like, I just got through it. Ididn't talk like that's being stoic aboutit. Or I just worked and took care of myman. And that's, it's like, that's not,I'm sorry, that's not heroic for women.Like women deserve more than that.And women deserve to have a voice. Andso, um, but you're right.It's not all on theemotional development of men.I think it was an emotional lack ofemotional development on a generation.And then we got married andyou said it, we got married.And it was the first time where there wasa paradigm shift in that both parentswere working and nothing, and thennothing changed in the domestic front.We were really sold sucha bag of crap. And, um,it was almost like destined for failure.I mean, and I know there, there was,I know there are, you know,statistically, I don't know this.I don't think you know this,but what is the divorce rate of Gen Xersversus boomers versus whatever, right?I don't know. I'm curious.Yeah. Maybe if we find a graphic,we'll put it up on the screen for you to,um, but I don't know,but I do know there's a lot of midlife,uh, divorce is happening right now.And there's a lot of graydivorces and that's the boomers.There's a lot of gray divorces too. Um,and I think most of them statisticallynow, like it used to be the men wouldwant to get divorced because they found ayounger version, right?They go through their midlife crisis. Itseems like now it's the women that areleaving. So it's very interesting, butthat's something to look into more,yeah. You know, but I think that, um,it was destined for failure in some ways,but I think that there were definitelycouples that did have good communicationthat I think therewere men that stepped up.There were people that have saved Mary.There were people that had greatmarriages and the dadhelped and things wentwell. So we're notsaying like all Gen X, uh,parents ended up in the all Gen X kidsended up in these nightmare marriages.That's not what we'resaying, but we probably hada highest,a higher percentage of differentvariables than othergenerations. Because again,it was the shift of the culture of womenare leaving the home and working.It's really the first time that'shappened on that level.I'm not talking about a war time. I knowwomen did that at war time.And I know there werewomen who always worked.I'm talking about a cultural shift.The, and the cultural shift was leavingthe house to get a job,to continue this concept of an Americandream where you would have acar, two cars, dogs,house, be able to eat, right?Have healthcare. And it's nowvery much a two income society.Oh, well that's the other thing iscapitalism. How doesthat play into it? Um,that to be able to afford to do that, didyou need two people?I mean, a lot of people,there's conspiracy theories on this thatthe government wanted more tax money.So they, they set it up sowomen would go to work. Um,wanted to break up the home to have morecontrol over the people. You know,there's a lot of that that goes into itand you can, you can research that.But, um, do I think,I think women going back to work was sucha wonderful thing for women to beable to do as an option.But I think it's really crappy that itended up where women had to go back towork to afford this lifestyle. I think itshould have stayed an option.And I think it should have,I think women it should have also bewhere women have the potential to make asmuch as men. So if, if they want the manto stay home, you know,if you're going to do that,then you make sure the men,the women make as much asthe men. And then as a couple,they can decide who stays home.There's a lot of thingsthat should have happened here.You should have had women,if they're going to work,you should have been paying them the sameas you were paying men so that thatcouple, I know, but I'm just saying therewas a whole bunch of stuff.I'm going to get shit on.I think so. So, but anyways, but as faras attachment styles,um, I do think Gen X men in general,a lot of them are avoidance or fearfulavoidance and a lot of the women,a lot of the women though could have beentoo and anxious attachment.And I feel like myperspective is, but I could be skewed.I feel like myexperience a hundred percent,my perspective experiencethat I'm in, it's not gospel,but I feel like women definitely weremore the anxious attachment a hundredpercent. And I do think it's partlybecause of a higher divorce rate.I do think it's because of mom's workingas well, right? The whole,the nuclear home shiftedfrom dad's work. Mom stays home.Mom raises the kids. Nowdad's working. Mom's working.Probably a little tension there.And dad's approval of youngwomen is harder to come by.Maybe they're out on sales guys drop jobsand they're gone five days a week.They're traveling a lot. And so there's,there's a lot there.There's a lot there.Also we, um,we're the generation where we were toldwe have to have a man and we were the,we're the generation thatwe were told we compete.We were taught to competewith each other for a man.So we had anxiety about that, that youneed to get a man and all that,where, you know,the younger generations are reallyenjoying their singletime and honoring thatand don't have, not saying they don'thave anxiety about finding their person,but it's just, I feel it's different. Itseems different. I could be wrong,but we, we came outof college, most of us,I'm not saying all of us,but like we need, you know,finding our person and as,and need to find a man. So,I don't know. I think the attachmentstyles are interesting. Um,and I'll be curious to see how our kidsattachment styles are. Um,because if it's rooted in yourexperiences with your caregivers,and then did we mess them up in some way?Well, you know, it'sinteresting. I never thought about it,but I I'd be willing to bet each one willhave a different style.Probably.And it's just becausethey're unique creatures.Well, yeah, but it also goes back to yourexperiences with your caregiver.And yet you have to remember,like they each had different quoteunquote childhoodsbecause of what age theywere. So different things were going onin our lives at different times.So they moved and wemoved. So there was different,and that could create differentattachment styles. SoI'll be curious to see,hopefully they're all fineand okay. And we'll be good.Be the first to know.I do think that Gen X works so hard thatI think a lot of their are Gen Z kidsare, are going to be overall be fine whenit comes to their attachment styles.But I don't know. I don't know.Cause I know there's a lot of anxiety inthat generation. So I don't know.I have a question totally different. Um,what do you think the fate of ourgeneration is herewith all of this, with,with all of this, um,the divorce, the great,I don't know if we're a great divorce, Ilike, I'm great. Um,but women reaching this pointclaiming their energy,moving on, not being dependent,the men kind of overreacting in some way.And I don't know if overreactingoverreacting is the right word.That's not the right word, but you knowwhat I'm going. It's the dynamic.They're kind of being taken off guard.There's this shift. Whatdo you think? Um, well,I definitely think there's Gen Xers thatare going to stay married and go intoGod willing. They're, they're old agetogether. Um, speaking about us inparticular, but we know other people thatare married and are happy and allthat. The ones where the woman has, um,started her new, that'sour dog started her new life.I think you're going to have,um, a bunch of golden girls.I think you're going to have a lot ofwomen that live together or live incommunities together and travel togetherand enjoy their lives together andsupport each other. And I think for somewomen, it'll be the first time,and it'll be the most glorious time oftheir life. And, um,they say there's a lonely man epidemic, aloneliness epidemic.Yeah, that's a trend. So, um, I think I,I don't know what's goingto happen with Gen X men, um,who've gone through divorce. Uh,we may have a lot of older guys thatsugar daddies. I don't know. I don't, Ithink maybe just alone.I think, you know, unless youmake a lot of money nowadays,you're not a sugar daddy.You have to make a lotof money now to be that.So there definitely will beGen X sugar daddies, but, um,I think the women are going to be fine.And I don't know if the men are going tobe, they may be, they may be just fine.I don't know, but I think the women aregoing to be fine. And, and they may, um,I think the women will meet othercompanions if they choose,but I don't see them ingeneral getting married again.You know, it's a fascinating thing as Isit here and listen to your answer asmen, you have to be, you have to do itall. I think there's been a shift.Men have to do it all nowin some respects in that,in the, the, the, the thingthat comes to mind is just,you've got to be masculineyet you need to be sensitive.And that's a fine line. That's more notprogrammed for that per se.Our generation is that the men, the menin our generation isn't,but the millennial men. Sothat brings up a good point.There were some comments under, um,where men were sayingabout showing their emotions.Why show your emotions when a woman canuse them against you?Yeah, that's amazing. AndI don't understand that.Can you explain from a man's perspectivewhere some of those men are coming fromthat they feel that if they're vulnerableand show their emotions to a woman,she's going to use itas a weapon against them.Oh man. I don't know.I, I don't know. Um,I wish I had a littlemore time to think about it,even though I have thoughtabout it. I think it's sort of,maybe by showing youremotions were programmed.That's a weakness unless it's anger andrage, then we're strong. Right.But if we have to showyour emotions and cry orempathize, I don't, we should all beempathetic to everything.So it's more as maybe that next leveldown of, of empathy or,or a vulnerability of I'm afraid ofsomething or I'm afraid of this,or I'm afraid of that, or maybe it'sprofessing your love. So I don't know.Right. What are the, what is thatvulnerability therethey're talking about? Um,but there, I could certainly see, youknow, a woman who might be like, Oh,you're so weak. You, you get upsetwatching this or when this, you know,whatever. I could see a woman doing thatif for whatever reason,people in general can becrazy and wacky, right?So it feels like thatwould be more on the fringe.But for seeing that alot of men had said that,that means that there's a lot of womenout there doing that,or maybe their moms did that to them.But what's an example? Doyou think, what are these,what are they talking about?Maybe in the heat of an argument,the woman throws it in theirface about a time that they,that's the only thing I can think ofshowed vulnerability,but what level of what'stype or level or instance ofvulnerability? Would you beable to throw back on someone?I don't know. I mean,other than crying, but I, I,when I say when men sharing emotions, I'mnot thinking about crying.I'm more thinking about being open, beingvulnerable, sharing, you know,like you also, there you go.When I think of it, my five,represent my generationto me, it's more crying.So they may think crying. Maybe they'rejust thinking crying. Yeah.Yeah. So, and then someof the men said that, um,there that it's theirjob as men to, you don't,when you're in a situation, you don'texperience your emotions.And if you need to, youexperience them alone,you go to a place andexperience them alone,but it's your job to manage them.And that showing emotion in asituation is a detriment to,um, trying to resolvewhatever's going on, that,that emotions, um,are a weakness and we'll get in the wayof fixing a problem.So, and I think that's probably accurate.If you were sitting on a park benchcrying and a man was sitting on the parkbench crying, which is more acceptable,which would be more common,which would be more likeless out of the norm. Right.So the society in generalis not set up to let men cry.I'm not saying we need to, I don't,right? And if you do your week, um,but it's not set up for that. It's notfacilitated to that degree.That's not our cultural norm. Yeah. It's,you know, it's true.But then I think that Gen X men look downon millennial men and Gen Z men,because they feel like the ones that aremore empathetic and more in touch withtheir emotions, because wedid get comments about, um,we were the last real men were the lastgeneration of real men and the men afterus are weak.I honestly can relate to that andidentify with that at a certain degree,whether that's right or wrong.I cannot relate to younger men who are asemotional or sensitive as they are.And that's a problem for me, right?That's my problem. Right.So I don't hold that against them.I don't view it as my ownflaw, but it is what it is.But you know what we've talked about howmillennial men and I think Gen Z menwound up being like this are much bettercommunicators in general and theirrelationships and help on the domesticfront more than Gen X men did and morein tune with thewomen, what the women need.And so I think it takes being in tunewith that sensitive part of yourpersonality to be able to be a fullpartner for the woman in your life.It's my evolutionary thinking, right? Menevolve, women evolve,society evolves and you know, you kind ofhope it's all for the better.But here's the thing. Even thosemillennial women, Ithink women in general,in general, um, I think women in generalare attracted to high masculinity,but want sensitivity along with it.So I think the ideal man for a woman forin general is the guy who's a man verymasculine, kind of, you know, rougharound the edges, all that takes,gets shit done, takes care of everything.But then she wants him to be sensitiveand empathetic on thedomestic front whereshe needs him. And that is, that is whatcan be challenging for men.Yes. Well, you just summed up some of thecommentary that men are feeling thatwomen want it all. What else can I donow? She, you know, this and that,that's what's happening.Right. Right. But I don'tknow. Are they talking about,I feel like they're talking aboutliterally what they want us to keep doingmore. I don't, I'mtalking more, um, just,I don't know, emotionally or, um,what they're bringing to the tablecharacteristically, I guess,if that makes sense. Whatdo you mean? Like be a man,but also still be able to be sensitive.Yeah. That's what you want from me.Can you be a little moresensitive? You asshole, you know,that may be the timeless problem.Timeless tension. Yeah. Yeah. It's that,but I mean, I think there's so much,we, everything we've talkedabout is valid, but I think,but I think men wantwomen to participate,hold their own, do thingsaround the house, if possible,bring some money. And if not,if they're fine with them being home,taking care of everything on the homefront, but also befeminine and be sexual.It's almost, I was, you know,it's almost like be Mary Poppins inpublic and a hooker in the bedroom.That's the man's dream, right? And then awoman wants like a mass masculine manwho can fight if needs to protect it. Shewants to protect her,but she also wants someonewho's going to do the dishes,cook dinner once in a while,give the kids a bath and not complainabout it and not act like he's doing hera favor. That's the thing is when a mandoes stuff like that,it's a favor, but when a woman does it,it's viewed as her duty.I think you're just summing up adysfunctional relationship though,or at least a phase in a dysfunctionalrelationship, right?It where the man thinksthat he's doing her a favor.I think that's a generational thing.You think so? I mean,would you say there was a time in ourearly marriage when if you did something,like let's say if you, Idon't know if you ever did this,but let's say if you wouldhave given one of the kids a bath.Of course I did.Or did something you would have thoughtyou were helping me out and be,really think about it.No, I'm trying to think about that.Or like, let's say you went groceryshopping that you were helping me out.I think the most tangible thing would belike doing the dishes.Okay. I would definitely was a,I feel like I was definitely activelyinvolved with the kids of that.And that maybe not so much baths. I'dtake a bath with them type of thing,you know, but not a nut.When they were very, very little to beclear, very little babies, babies.Um, but now I'm not awash the dishes type of guy.I'm not a clean upthe kitchen type of guy.No, no.Yeah. Okay. I'm talking aboutthough, in our early marriage,I'm talking about nowwhen we were in the trenches,if you would have done the three or postkids, we have the kids,everything's going on. Let's say you dothe dishes. Yeah. Honestly,don't you think you kind of would haveviewed it as you're helping me out?Uh, you know, I'll throw youone. Sure. I don't know if I,I don't remember doingthe dishes, but you didn't.Yeah. But like, but you never mowed thelawn. You never shoveled the driveway.We've talked about that in our episodes.And for anyone who doesn't know,I was a stay at home mom. I did have acouple of jobs part time briefly,but we decided that before we got marriedon the rolls. And, um,we are Gen X and we went way traditionaland then things have shifted.I'd say in the last five years, for sure.You know, and midlife,cause cause as I went through menopauseand went through different things andthen us just our kidsgetting older and, um,more time in the home, like more timebetween us and stuff,things I wanted some changeand I, to give you credit,you listened to me,you heard me and you continue to try todo things to be understanding andsupportive. Um, especially when it comesto like health stuff and menopause,like you, and if I'm havingthis, if I'm like, uh, you know,I'm feeling emotional, like you have notbelittled me, you've been there. And so,and that's what it takes. It just takesevolving with your partner.I think it takes evolving. I'm notperfect, but I, you know,and I don't even try tobe perfect. You know that.Oh, I know. I know. At least try. I trysomething. You do, you do.And you, yeah. And, but you, that's,if that's one piece of advice to the men,just evolve with her as she's goingthrough this huge phase, just,just be patient and, and,and try to be supportive.But I think too, to your credit, youstarted researchingthis shit a while ago.Yes. And you were trying toget yourself prepared. Yeah.So you've done variousthings to be proactive.I try to be proactive. And so my adviceto women is take care of your ownbusiness too. Right. Oh, absolutely. Youcan't put your head in the sand,but a lot of women don'tknow. And to be honest with you,this started for me. I,I've traced it back around 42.So I didn't really start doing anythingfor a good eight to nineyears. Cause I didn't know it washappening. My forties were rough.Oh, you're saying youthink you hit menopause.I was in perimenopause at 42. Yes.And that's a whole nother thing. Cause Iwas going through thyroid disease andperimenopause. I didn'tknow I had perimenopause.I thought everything that was going onwith me was just thyroid disease.I was also going through perimenopause.So I got more educated in thelast like few years, but no,I didn't know what was happening. Andthat's, I want to do an episode on that.That whole journey of, you know, but nowomen perimenopause can hit at age 35for any women listeningthat are younger, research,research perimenopause, because you maystart having symptoms and you may thinkwhat's happening to meand it's perimenopause.And I could have done different things,taken different supplements, maybe doneHRT. I could have done different thingsin my forties that would have made mylife so much easier if I would haveknown. So yeah, butnow that I know, yeah,we have communication, but wehad rough times during that.Oh, it's going to say so. I'm literally asaint. I made it through that.No, no, no, no, no. I'm a saint. You hadyour own stuff, dude.We won't get into that in this episode.We've talked enough about ourselves,but anyway, so that's,that's attachment cells. I mean,a brief synopsis of it. Yeah. And then webrought it into ourselves and all that,like our own attachmentstyles. But I encourage anyone,if you're interested in this to researchit more, because it is fascinating.There are quizzes you can take to figureout what your attachment style is.And also if you're aparent, you can kind of, as they,your children grow and become adults,you can maybe recognize what theirattachment style is.I think too, one thing you said that Ithink is interesting is,and this is probably a way to apply thisif interested is if you're feeling weirdabout a relationship, maybe ask yourselfwhy go to one of these little charts.It's fascinating stuff. Like you said,you were anxiously attached to certainpeople and you're like,what the hell is going on here? Yeah.You want to definitely move on from thattype of thing. Oh, for sure.I think as you get involvedwith someone for a relationship,if you know yourattachment style to begin with,and then as you get to know them and youcan figure out their attachment style,I think that can only help yourrelationship or itcan help you figure out,this isn't going to work. But I think forsure, the more knowledge, the better.Self-awareness is key. 100%. So, sothat's that conversation.Hopefully you enjoyed it. Wekind of went all over the place,but we stayed within a little bit of arealm here of relationships andattachment styles. Yeah. And I would,I would say take it easy on each otherout there. Yes. Right. Give each other,give each other somegrace. You know, when, when,I'm not talking about though, abusivesituations. I always say that not,not unless it's anabusive situation. So yeah,but so hopefully everyone enjoyed thisdiscussion and wewill probably be puttingup some graphics, I know,and maybe even some links in thedescription of that cantake you to some furtherresearch about attachment styles. Andwe'll see. Google it,Google attachment styles and there's awhole world out there. Oh yeah.And we'll see you next time. Bye.